New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2015-12-15 21:32:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Old computer and operating system issues

Another planned obsolescence is the very computer that we are using to post to the forum with the continuingly changing operating system, Interface programs for viewing the web with, and yes newer faster more bit's cpu bandwidth hardware .....its constantly changing.....at the expense of the consumer.....

Offline

#2 2015-12-15 22:38:29

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,742
Website

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

You could complain about that. I stopped upgrading with Windows ME, eventually upgraded to XP in the spring of 2012. Still have XP. Yes, it works. Firefox handles the latest website features, and works on XP. I also have Microsoft Office XP Professional, also known as 2002. I also have an installation disk and product key for Office 2003, but haven't installed it. It's a full install, not an upgrade. Besides, there are very few features in 2003 that are not in 2002. The next version after that is Office 2007, which has the ribbon. I don't like the ribbon. I used every version of Office from the very first one, and the MS-DOS version of Word before that. I'm tired of change for the sake of change. I have installed an option pack from Microsoft that allows Office 2002 to use the new file formats for Office 2007 and later. That means I can do everything. Don't need change for the sake of change.

One point is to learn new things, not waste time and energy re-learning the same things over and over again.

I have a home business doing computer repair. I can repair computers when others often can't. And refurbish used computers, some run Windows XP, the highest end ones run Windows 7.

Here's a little chart. Total memory installed in your computer to run the operating system, and basic applications like Microsoft Word. Thiis is minimum memory to run with reasonable performance. Doubling recommended memory will increase performance, but anything beyond that will not.
Windows 3.1: 4MB
Windows 95: 16MB
Windows 95 OSR2 aka 95b: 24MB
Windows 98: 32MB
Windows 98SE: 48MB
Windows ME: 64MB
Windows NT: 128MB
Windows 2000 (aka NT version 5.0): 128MB
Windows XP when it was first released, no service packs or updates: 196MB
Windows XP with Service Pack 1: 256MB
Windows XP with Service Pack 3 and antivirus software: 512MB
Windows Vista: 2GB
Windows 7 32-bit: 1.5GB
Windows 7 64-bit: 2GB
Windows 8 or 8.1 (32 or 64-bit): same as Windows 7
Windows 10: same again

There are some official announcements that Windows will run with less memory. For example, that Vista will run on 1GB, or the 32-bit version of Windows 7/8/8.1/10 will run on 1GB of memory. There was also a claim that Windows XP will run on 64MB. I have tried, you don't want to. It's painfully slow.

Notice the exponentially increasing system resources required to do the same job at the same speed. Why would you want to go along with this? In 1995 there was a joke that Windows is a virus. Another joke had the Star Ship Enterprise upload a virus to the Borg cube, it would consume exponentially increasing resources until their systems crash, it was called Windows. Well, system resources actually went down a touch from Vista to Windows 7, and have remained stable since. That doesn't change the fact Vista quadrupled resources over XP.

After Windows 3.1 and Windows for Work groups 3.1.1 came Windows NT. It was pure 32-bit while 3.1 and all previous version were pure 16-bit, so couldn't run any existing software. Any small business with custom software was screwed. And NT required 128MB while computers of the day typically had 4MB and could not be upgraded any more than 16MB. And it cost $400 just for the operating system, not including the computer. Previous version of Windows cost $60. So you had to get a completely new computer and completely new software. And Microsoft wondered why customers told them where to shove it. So they came out with Windows 95, which could run on the maximum memory current computers could be upgraded to. Not a coincidence. And was a hybrid between 16- and 32-bit, would run software for Windows 3.1 so small business could continue to run their custom applications. That was a hard lesson, but Microsoft apparently didn't learn.

When Windows Vista was released it required 2GB of memory, some users with Autocad or Photoshop Pro or high-end graphics software required twice the recommended memory to run their apps. But laptops could not be upgraded to more than 3.4GB. The exact amount varied, total of main memory plus video memory could not exceed 4GB. And Windows Vista would not run software written for any version of Windows prior to XP, and many applications for XP would not run either. Sounding familiar? In both cases, release of NT and Vista, many users said if they have to get everything new, their next computer will be a Mac.

When I worked a computer store in 2008/2009, they accepted computers for recycling. If the computers work, they were often wiped and cleaned for resale. One computer was a Sony Vaio laptop with Windows 98SE. I remembered that one, when it first came out it was the first laptop with dual monitor capability: PowerPoint could display slides on the external projector port and notes on the LCD display. I had wanted it, but couldn't afford it. So I cleaned it up and bought it myself, got an employee discount. I still have it. It had Office 2000 installed, with PowerPoint. That version of Office runs with that version of Windows on that laptop just as fast as any modern laptop. I still have it, and use it for presentations. People don't know how old it is unless I tell them. It works fine. Any newer laptops I get through my home business now are sold. I need the money, and who else would understand how to use it?

I have learned how to use newer version of Windows, and how to repair them. That's my business. But if I were forced to upgrade my own computer, I think I would go to Linux. I already have a refurbished iMac on the other side of my desk: 24" LCD with aluminum case and Core 2 Duo processor. I've upgraded OS X to the latest version. Didn't like the latest upgrade: it ties your desktop Operating System to the Apple store, has spyware built-in. In the mid and late 1980s, I was a software developer and system guru for Unix System V. Linux is based on that. And 2000/2001 was a QNX developer, another version of Unix, since bought by Blackberry. I've used Linux Ubuntu Server a bit; I can definitely see how it's based on Unix. Set up a web server, installed and configured Clonezilla server for deployment, and configured a network to allow the DHCP server to be different than the tftp server for netboot. So I can use Unix, switching to Linux wouldn't be that hard. But Ubuntu and Mint are changing too fast as well.

Offline

#3 2020-12-12 16:10:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

Finally the Christmas as gotten last year with windows 10 os version 1803 was upgraded to version 1909 and in with its payload of change is a program lurking in the task bar that gets started in the start up is "MEET NOW" with out it showing in the remove program software options just like the spyware called Cortona and others.....
When will Microsoft stop putting things into the OS that do not need to be integrated in them to make the computer work?

What is Meet Now in Windows 10? How do you remove it?.

What is Meet Now in Windows 10 Meet Now’s icon in the taskbar is a rather creative way to pull everyone’s interest. Skype comes preinstalled in Windows 10, and it gives Microsoft a good chance to quickly join a meeting or launch a new meeting.

quite annoying....

Offline

#4 2020-12-12 16:28:06

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,571
Website

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

The last stable and resource-efficient operating system Microsoft ever sold was DOS 6.0.  My first and last PC from the late 80's was a Frankenstein that could be woken up either in Windows 3.1 or in DOS.  It served me well.  None since have been as good.

That very first PC had DOS 2.0,  later upgraded to DOS 6.0.  To it was added a shell program from Germany called "Pop-up DOS",  which did a mouse-based point-and-click user interface,  by means of text in lists of filenames,  NOT graphic icons!  It was fast,  efficient,  easy-to-use,  and stable for years at a time. 

DOS 2 (and 6) fit on one 3.5" floppy disk with room to spare out of 1.4 MB.  Pop-up DOS fit on one other 3.5" floppy with gobs of room to spare out of 1.4 MB. 

So,  tell me:  why are we better off today with all the (to me useless) icon graphics?

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#5 2020-12-12 17:53:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

I actually played with all of those versions of dos and a few windows versions  before 3.11
There were even larger floppy disks in use before the 3 1/4 as in the 80's it was using an 8" single sided and paper tapes still to boot up a machines os. Which included the Nova2 & 3 and PDP-11 switches to write a word and data into the computer.
Win 98 was stable as well once the os and browsers where separated and so was xp for the longest of time....

Offline

#6 2020-12-12 21:55:47

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

GW,

One of the inventors of the UNIX OS asked the same question.  IIRC, he said the GUI someone built for UNIX was the most complicated and resource-intensive program ever built for UNIX, despite the fact that the program itself didn't actually "do anything".  The ultimate answer is that very few people are capable of the level of abstract thinking required to operate a computer, hence the visualization aids, or non-aids, to some people, in some cases.  All I know for sure is that the modern GUI is astonishingly "expensive" in terms of computing resources.  Beyond that, the most commonly used software programs include web browsers and word processors and spreadsheets- all of which use graphical interfaces.

Offline

#7 2020-12-13 18:53:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

Well just took a peek at task manager and it indicated that I had 16 edge going when it was 3 tabs open.... so much for the new os and internet browser being something that one can trust....

Offline

#8 2020-12-13 19:51:50

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

SpaceNut,

It would probably help to learn a bit about how the browser actually works before mis-trusting what it's doing.  Edge has some glitches here and there, as virtually all non-trivial software does, but it's better than IE, IMO.

Offline

#9 2020-12-13 20:30:05

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,298

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

For current discussion about Edge ....

I'm sure everyone participating in the discussion already knows this, but Edge is Chromium ...

Microsoft Edge is up to date.
Version 87.0.664.60 (Official build) (64-bit)
This browser is made possible by the Chromium open source project and other open source software.

Microsoft Edge

© 2020 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Above was for Windows 7 (which runs Edge) ... this next quote is from Ubuntu:

Chromium logo
Chromium
Version 87.0.4280.88 (Official Build) snap (64-bit)
Get help with Chromium

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-12-13 20:50:14)

Offline

#10 2021-06-11 21:15:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Old computer and operating system issues

I did a cellphone replacement and now have an app in the sys-tray that displays the weather news when you mouse over it when there is an internet connection....
Its funny how edge has a simular banner accross the msn.com website....

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB