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#1 2020-06-11 16:05:25

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

In my mind recent information confirms what I though about the subject.

https://phys.org/news/2020-06-volcanic- … heric.html
Quote:

Volcanic activity and changes in Earth's mantle were key to rise of atmospheric oxygen

My expectation is that all three planets originally had atmospheres with significant Methane.  This could explain flowing water on Mars, in the beginning.

Three terrestrial planets.  Venus, Earth, Mars.  They age at different rates.  Aging is in this case said by me to be the loss of Hydrogen to space.

Venus ages faster because it has a somewhat lower gravity and is much closer to the sun, and very little useful magnetic field.  At this time I cannot know why Venus has any Hydrogen at all, (In its clouds).  Is it collected from the impacting solar wind, or does the Mantle of Venus still give off some Hydrogen?

Mars would have aged faster and different.  The history of volcanism is different, and very little plate tectonics.  (We think).
Mars had an Oxygen rich atmosphere billions of years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 … atmosphere
Quote:

Mars had an oxygen-rich atmosphere four billion years ago

For Mars, the aging process might be different.  If the Mantle were largely isolated from the atmosphere, it is possible that portions of the Mantle may still be hydrated.  Lack of tectonic movements, reductions in volcanism, and other processes may have kept the Martian Mantle isolated from the atmosphere.

In the case where Mars may have had vegetation at one point which points to Oxygen from that source, (And perhaps transfer to Earth), some very harsh extinction event must have occurred that wiped it out on Mars, unless you really believe there are lichen on Mars now.

I prefer to suppose photolysis by U.V. where water vapor was up in the high Martian atmosphere.  The Hydrogen left more urgently than the Oxygen, so then for a period of time an Oxygen significant atmosphere.  (The Methane would have been destroyed by a similar process prior to that.

In order to keep the planet warm under an Oxygen atmosphere of a significantly higher pressure than now, there may have been help from some processes.

The Ground may have been sufficiently warm still to have springs of water.

It may be that volcanism was still putting some small degree of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.

I also summon a cloud diode method, which I have mentioned before and elsewhere.  If you have sufficient evaporation of water to water vapor, then that serves as a greenhouse gas on the day side.  On the night side and on the winter side, it would be expected that cloud cover would serve to retain heat.  So, possibly with an Oxygen atmosphere of the right density, less than Earth, but significantly greater than that of Mars currently evaporation from open water and ice would be promoted to the extent that the atmosphere of Mars would be sufficiently humidified to create the "Cloud Diode".

And this, if true, shows a way to terraform Mars.
The current Mars is too cold to launch sufficient water vapor into the atmosphere of Mars to be above the rate of Oxygen loss to space and perhaps surface materials.

If it were possible to increase the amount of water vapor in the upper atmosphere of Mars, where nucleation of condensates was sufficiently hard, then you would have water vapor as a greenhouse gas.  Then although Micrometeorite do cause some nucleation, as I have said elsewhere and elsewhen, nucleation materials could be injected at a preferred rate from a moon of Mars, in hopes of stimulations of a cloud diode.

Of course there is no reason to not use other terraforming methods such as traces of other greenhouse gasses.  The hope would be to bootstrap the planet into vaporizing water itself after being warmed up sufficiently by the methods above.

I have read that up to 1 billion years ago, Mars had intermittent raging rivers of water.  I think it was very likely that until 1 billion years ago, it was possible for Mars to transition into a wet situation with a deeper atmosphere by this process.  But it would be intermittent.   I think we may be able to bootstrap it into it now.

So, if true, then Elon Musk is right, there is enough materials on Mars to terraform it to our better liking.  But water has to be sacrificed.
However more and more water is being discovered all the time.  For instance an ancient ice cap buried ~1 mile underground.

https://www.space.com/ancient-water-ice … -mars.html
Quote:

Huge Amount of Water Ice Is Spotted on Mars (It Could Be Long-Lost Polar Ice Caps)

So, what I really want for Christmas, is a cloud diode, with some greenhouse gasses.  I also want an Oxygen dominated atmosphere, and some Hydrogen.  Hydrogen, especially at first.

So, although we expect much of the Hydrogen to float up into space, if some of it is dissolved into an atmospheric solution (CO2, N2, Argon, other), then with atmospheric circulation it is possible that some Hydrogen would be embedded in down flowing atmosphere, perhaps in the polar winters.  If so, then Hydrogen may be extracted from the mix with reverse osmosis or some such.

So, then, for a while you turn Mars into one giant solar cell.  Maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-11 16:41:54)


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#2 2020-06-11 18:33:19

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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Volcanoes would spew out sulfur to which the uv would cause the reaction to split the water and it would join with the sulfur to become acid. For Venus as it cools it would loop in the atmosphere slowly losing it to the wind.
For earth that cooling would form oceans with dissolved iron and chlorides to become salty with lots of other minerals with in it.
But for mars the cooling happened so that the brine soaked into the ground with losing the remaining of it to the solar wind as time progressed.

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#3 2020-06-11 19:00:55

Void
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Posts: 3,884

Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

I believe that the important points in addition are that plants by themselves could not generate an Oxygen atmosphere on Earth until the Earth's mantle was depleted of a considerable amount of hydrogen.  Until then the Hydrogen coming out of the volcanos would just convert it to water.  Other chemicals as you suggested could also capture the Oxygen.

We know that the Oxygen atmosphere of Mars went away.  A prime suspect could have been loss to space.  But also perhaps also Oxidizing minerals.

It should not matter that much if the volcanism left over for Mars, is hydrated, with Hydrogen.  There is not that much of it.  More likely though the big Volcano systems are depleted of Hydrogen.

So, if we have water and can get it into the upper Martian atmosphere, we can have Oxygen and perhaps even, I hope, an Ozone layer to some degree. 

With a average pressure of say 25 mb, it should be possible to have a biosphere.

And if their is not enough ice on Mars, then it may indeed be possible to bring more in if we achieve fusion power some day.

Perhaps some day a 330 mb atmosphere.  Much of the power to achieve it from sunlight's U.V. splitting water.

And just maybe Hydrogen to extract from the atmosphere of Mars.

Small quantities can exist without explosions or fires.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-11 19:06:08)


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#4 2020-06-12 09:34:07

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Lower explosive limit for Hydrogen is cited as 4.0 %
https://goodforgas.com/parts-per-millio … surements/

I would never expect to get anywhere near that in the Atmosphere of Mars.

And I don't have proof, but I suspect, that if water vapor could be injected into a high layer of the atmosphere, for strong U.V. to act on, while much of the Hydrogen produced would float off into space, some would linger as a dissolved component of the modified atmosphere.  It is just possible that if that mix moved downward at night or in a polar winter, Hydrogen as a minor component of the atmosphere on the surface would become present and available to extract.

I also think that with Hydrogen and CO2 being in the atmosphere, the actions of U.V. to produce monatomic Hydrogen would then perhaps cause the production of Methane, as sometimes the Monatomic Hydrogen might interact with the CO2.  And of course Methane is a greenhouse gas, and water vapor is a greenhouse gas.

Many people will think that the water vapor will condense into snow and just come down again.  Some will I suppose.  But say at a pressure of .01 mb, what is the condensing temperature?  It is pretty low I expect.  And if the condensate particles were very tiny, the descent rate should be slow.  If sunrise occurs, and the particles have not touched ground, they will evaporate again.  A sort of Virga situation then.

But also needed for condensation at high altitudes are nucleation particles.  Without them the vapor will not condense, even if super cooled.

But we might want to add a controlled amount of nucleation points, perhaps from a Martian moon.  The objective there would be to produce clouds.  But you would not want to condense all of the vapor to fog.  Clouds with some greenhouse gasses in them should serve as a good blanket for the dark side of the planet.  Allowing the surface to stay warmer during nights and winters.

This might be something like the Martian polar hood, in the winter.  And yes there is a danger of water vapor condensing on CO2 snow as nucleation points.  I might fail there to a degree.

Perhaps the water vapor can be in a layer higher than where the CO2 snow forms.

-----
A water source needed.

I have run though this material before.  I am thinking of a situation where you could generate a largely dustless dust devil.

Venting hot steam through a turbine, to the atmosphere of Mars.  It will float up and should create a vortex.  In fact, I have a feeling that dust devils run, in part by this method.  Not just a thermal in the atmosphere, but a vacuum cleaner for small amounts of water vapor.  If there is a pressure drop inside the mouth of the dust devil, it may pull tiny amounts of water vapor out of the soil.  That would add some buoyancy.

You could inject a set amount of dust into the vortex, and this again would be a way other than the moons of Mars to control how many nucleation particles there could be in the upper atmosphere.  However, I think the moons method would allow you to put them higher up, if that were useful.

-----

The process I suggested, would eventually deplete the temperate zones ice, so eventually it would be necessary to get polar ice.  But by then probably if the atmosphere were sufficiently thick it may even be possible that there could be periodic polar ice melts into rivers.  The north pole would pool, I guess so you would have to pump it.

However the south pole is elevated so rivers could flow.

But if all else fails use the boring company to drill some aqueducts.  Canals might also be an option. 

We would be talking about a very advanced Martian civilization in this case, with lots of infrastructure.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-12 09:54:00)


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#5 2020-06-12 15:36:52

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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

I have a question - from a quick look online it appears as though the risk of fire with oxygen in the atmosphere begins at 24%.

We know plants produce oxygen.

Isn't it quite plausible that a planet could evolve extensive vegetation that produces increasing amounts of oxygen until it reaches a critical level - say 35%. Would it not be possible that a major event like a meteorite impact would create a planet-wide conflagration burning up and then destroying the whole ecosystem and leaving perhaps just some residual life hiding in the rocks and ice?


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#6 2020-06-12 17:52:02

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

I have had similar thoughts Louis.

If you look for Oxygen levels in the age of dinosaurs, you can get whatever you want apparently, say 15%-19%.  It's the internet.  However, air samples from amber suggest as much as 35% Oxygen.  This would make sense if you have giant flying reptiles, or giant reptiles at all.

In such conditions even moist vegetation would burn.  They do have Carbon deposits for that age that are extensive, indicating massive fires.

To me this makes sense, as it can help to explain the demise of the dinosaurs.

If the lowland animals were adapted by fitness requirements for a very high Oxygen level, then after worldwide fires, there is suggestion of a massive drop in Oxygen levels.  This was after the extinction asteroid.

However alpine animals may have already been adapted for cold and for lower Oxygen levels.

If the alpine mammals had something like hibernation, and at one pole they were in hibernation, they might have been protected.  It seems to me that a rodent like burrowing animal adapted for the alpine and polar regions might have the best chances for survival.

For birds it becomes harder.  Did they nest in caves?  Could that have protected them?  They are here, so it was managed some way.

As they emerged, I guess it would have been a world of frozen corpses, partially burned.  If they were carnivorous or omnivorous, that would have held them to life until the ecology restarted.  If indeed the lowland Oxygen levels were lower than the previous, then these alpine creatures would have had advantage over any lowland survivors which needed more Oxygen to be healthy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-12 17:58:57)


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#7 2020-06-13 07:57:54

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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Periods of high Oxygen concentration in the Earth's atmosphere have coincided with the evolution of giant insects. Dragonflies with wingspans measured in feet for  instance. This is because the insects low performing Oxygen capture and distribution systems, along with the weight of their exoskeletons, limits their size.
Small burrowing animals seem to have survived the apocalypse of dinosaurs, along with birds. Also surviving were sharks and bony fishes, molluscs (but not Amonites), cold blooded reptiles and crocodilians.

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#8 2020-06-13 10:39:01

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Elderflower,  thanks for the good contribution.

Here is a look at the world in the age of dinosaurs:
https://dinosaurpictures.org/ancient-earth#240
So, in those times they say the Oxygen levels were low.

But this has a very interesting graph, which helps me to see the fluctuations over time:
https://geology.com/usgs/amber/
Quote:

Oxygen levels over time: This chart shows a major decrease in oxygen content in the atmosphere from 35 percent to the present day level of 21 percent. This decrease occurred about the same time that the dinosaurs disappeared - 65 million years ago. USGS image.

That, I guess makes us more fit for spaceflight than lowland dinosaurs would have been.

I have been thinking about birds, volcano's, and lava tubes at high elevations.

It seems to me that some of them might have used lava tubes for protection, from predation, and maybe temporary bad weather.  Also raising young in the lava tubes perhaps.  They would have been able to kill off any vermin that tried to take hold in the lava tubes.

Of course there would need to be a skylight or two.

I can think of three types at this time that might have resembled birds we have now.

-Ravens.
-Buzzards.
-Global Migrators.

Many of them could deal with carrion, but might also have had other food sources as well.  Being adapted to greater cold and lesser Oxygen, the doors to survival might have been open to them.

The lava tubes would be cold from winter air going into them, but we know the penguins do perfectly well in intense cold.  While the cold might repel them, the protection might attract them.

In the event that a large predator fell into the skylight, they could just stand off until it died, and it would then be food.

If they were nesting in lava tubes, smaller ones could attach nests to the walls, but larger ones as a group could likely fend off most types of intruders, so they might nest on the floor.

I am guessing that such birds would have an instinct to retreat to the lava tubes in a situation of danger.  Flying predators, or bad weather.

So, perhaps when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater, occurred, they might instinctively gather there.

When the skies were hot as an oven, it is fairly likely the interior of these lava tubes would remain sufficiently cool and protected from bad air, and falling objects. 

So, this could be a path for survival for birds.

Mammals of course in burrows, other water associated creatures I presume having some protection from water.

Diving animals, may have already had methods to deal with lower and declining Oxygen levels.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-13 10:58:31)


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#9 2020-06-13 14:27:30

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Here is some support for birds in caves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cave_birds

Some have echo location, and some night vision.  But I believe that these are more or less warm climate creatures.

That is not to say that in prehistoric times something alpine and cave and cold adapted could not have existed.

Done.


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#10 2020-06-13 19:33:31

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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Was it a gradual reduction from 35% or did the Yucatan meteorite burn up 14% of the world's oxygen when it impacted?  I have seen documentaries that suggest there was a virtuall global conflagration.

Void wrote:

Elderflower,  thanks for the good contribution.

Here is a look at the world in the age of dinosaurs:
https://dinosaurpictures.org/ancient-earth#240
So, in those times they say the Oxygen levels were low.

But this has a very interesting graph, which helps me to see the fluctuations over time:
https://geology.com/usgs/amber/
Quote:

Oxygen levels over time: This chart shows a major decrease in oxygen content in the atmosphere from 35 percent to the present day level of 21 percent. This decrease occurred about the same time that the dinosaurs disappeared - 65 million years ago. USGS image.

That, I guess makes us more fit for spaceflight than lowland dinosaurs would have been.

I have been thinking about birds, volcano's, and lava tubes at high elevations.

It seems to me that some of them might have used lava tubes for protection, from predation, and maybe temporary bad weather.  Also raising young in the lava tubes perhaps.  They would have been able to kill off any vermin that tried to take hold in the lava tubes.

Of course there would need to be a skylight or two.

I can think of three types at this time that might have resembled birds we have now.

-Ravens.
-Buzzards.
-Global Migrators.

Many of them could deal with carrion, but might also have had other food sources as well.  Being adapted to greater cold and lesser Oxygen, the doors to survival might have been open to them.

The lava tubes would be cold from winter air going into them, but we know the penguins do perfectly well in intense cold.  While the cold might repel them, the protection might attract them.

In the event that a large predator fell into the skylight, they could just stand off until it died, and it would then be food.

If they were nesting in lava tubes, smaller ones could attach nests to the walls, but larger ones as a group could likely fend off most types of intruders, so they might nest on the floor.

I am guessing that such birds would have an instinct to retreat to the lava tubes in a situation of danger.  Flying predators, or bad weather.

So, perhaps when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater, occurred, they might instinctively gather there.

When the skies were hot as an oven, it is fairly likely the interior of these lava tubes would remain sufficiently cool and protected from bad air, and falling objects. 

So, this could be a path for survival for birds.

Mammals of course in burrows, other water associated creatures I presume having some protection from water.

Diving animals, may have already had methods to deal with lower and declining Oxygen levels.

Done.


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#11 2020-06-14 08:13:36

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

Louis, you have prompted me to sea a few things more that "may" be true.

Here again, is a link with a graph.  This will say something about what the Oxygen levels have been proposed to have been over time.
https://geology.com/usgs/amber/

It looks to me like there was a rather sudden drop from ~up to 35%, down to ~27% Oxygen.  For large animals optimized for 33%-35% Oxygen this could have been a problem.

But if the Oxygen amount was reduced, and if Nitrogen which is less reactive, and Argon which is not reactive, if those gasses were of a relatively static value, then not only was the Oxygen level reduced, but the total atmospheric pressure would be reduced, that also making breathing harder.  Perhaps to a degree it might be as if we in a relatively short time lost significant Oxygen as a %, and also atmospheric pressure went down.

And the soot may well have induced increased precipitation, flash floods, and lots of erosion.  Perhaps lots of Carbon, and plant residue washed into the Oceans, and that over thousands of years continuing to soak up Oxygen slowly.

I still have trouble understanding why many of the ocean going reptiles did not survive.  Perhaps the change in the situation made it possible for some type of fish to multiply and consume the food that those reptiles would have relied on.  Perhaps a fish that was already adapted to lower Oxygen levels.  That could make sense, as Oxygen levels are not uniform in the Oceans.  Where the large reptiles may have suffered to a degree from hypoxia, fish that were adapted to lower Oxygen levels, may have then moved closer to the surface???  And out competed the reptiles.  Just a guess.



To make things worse, under those conditions, I would expect the weather patterns, climates to shift, which might have put creatures adapted to a certain condition into a different situation which they may not have been adapted to.  This is after the oven like wild fires, and then the presumed planetary winter from all the soot in the skies.

So, they were being beaten to death by many factors, I am guessing.

It is true that many people not from Tibet, struggle with gestation at those altitudes.  So, a drop in Oxygen would have been rather bad for reptiles that gave birth to live young.  The burden might have been too much, too sudden.

However, it seems like if the large reptiles were of a type that would dive deep for prolonged periods, they should have had some ability to cope with lower Oxygen levels.  But then if they were sluggish, and a fish continually adapted to lower Oxygen levels could outcompete them for their normal food, then it seems things could have been rather bad for them.




Done

Last edited by Void (2020-06-14 08:30:54)


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#12 2020-06-14 08:38:21

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

I am interested in this ancient model of what the Earth was like, in particular, if something like it were orbiting around a red dwarf star, and were tidally locked.

https://dinosaurpictures.org/ancient-earth#240

Although I think I have read that it could be the opposite, I would expect that the land masses would tend to be toward the star, and the giant Pacific Ocean away from the star and mostly in the dark.

I am interested in several possibilities, for the possibility of life being able to live on such worlds, all the way to a human like species capable of interstellar travel using and terraforming them.  Even if they do not have atmospheres.

For a planet with an atmosphere:
If it is non-human capable life, then any location on the dark side where there was liquid water could be habitable at a low level.  If open water and waves, I can imagine that shoreline life might get energy from the motion of the waves.  That and chemical energy would likely be the options.

On the day side, it can be seen that there would be smaller portions of water which might emerge into the light, so that could be more like Earth, but relatively continuous light, if the star were not too magnetically active.  In the case of a hotter day side, then the alpine regions might be somewhat habitable.

There are so many opinions.  Most scientists suggest that these worlds would be airless, and good chances I think that many would be.

But Venus is not airless.  No significant magnetic field, lower gravity, and ~twice as much sunlight as Earth.  It does loose it's oxygen because of an electric field that levitates it into space.  Otherwise it does have an induced magnetic field that protects its atmosphere fairly well.

Some worlds around red dwarfs, could have magnetic fields on their side, and a larger gravity.  Also, if they were on the outer edge of the habitable zone, they may not have enough of an electric field to levitate the Oxygen.

An example that suggests that this is possible is the Trappist planets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRAPPIST-1

For the moment, it appears that they all mostly have large amounts of water either as water vapor, liquid, or ice.

To me it seems that they either all moved recently from further out and are indeed loosing atmosphere at a level where atmosphere will not persist over time, or they somehow are stable over a long time duration.  I suppose that may be determined in the future.

On the other hand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_b, seems a long shot for a retained atmosphere, although, it is larger than Earth.  For the moment I will suppose it does not have a real atmosphere.  But if it is tidally locked, what might it be like?  Could it be useful to humans, if they somehow could get there?

With that model, we don't know if it has a magnetic field, or plate tectonics.  However looking at Mercury and the Moon, we can expect the accumulation of ices on the dark side to some extent, if it is tidally locked.  So, maybe a big ice cap on the dark side.  Water ice likely.  Maybe CO2, particularly if the planet is volcanic and active.  Perhaps Ammonia, which would retain some Nitrogen.  So some of the stuff of life.

At first it is reasonable to presume, no liquid water.  But with active volcanism, maybe some liquid water under the ice, similar to Europa.

This article describes how young red dwarf stars would treat their planets at first, and yet later be more pleasant to them.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2018/10 … itability/

I have not re-found a reference, but there is some notion out there that the active flair stars might create magma oceans inductively under the surface of such planets.  This would pretty much indicate active volcanism.  So, a method where a water ocean could exist on the dark side under ice, even if the atmosphere had been stripped away.

So, how attractive could these worlds be to humans if they could get to them?

Even a small planet like Mercury, even too close to its star might be able to have a dark side ice cap.  Better if it retained some of its volatile materials from birth, but also there are a couple of ways to add ices to that world after birth.  Comets, and Asteroid impactors of course.  Also both Mercury and the Moon are supposed to generate water from the solar wind by different means.

For Mercury, it apparently is achieved by protons injected into the regolith, and then the suns heat generates water, which can be transported to icy cold traps.  For the Moon, it supposed that protons are injected, and then impactors generate enough heat to cook up water.

So, it could be said that for a space faring species, there could be a different kind of habitable zone for largely airless worlds.  And I think that if tidal locked, then it may be that they can be quite close to the star, like Mercury, or I suppose further out such as Ceres.

If they use solar power of some type, these could be OK.

If I were space people, and were adapted to low gravity, I would prefer the small airless worlds.  If you like launching rockets off from worlds, those could be good ones.  Obviously in a flare situation however there would be great danger.  Probably you would prefer older stars that are quieter.

But then could you generate an artificial magnetic field to protect the planet, and then present water to the sunny side, and expect to begin to retain a resulting Oxygen atmosphere?  A very advanced "People" might manage it.

However there are those who say the flares would destroy any Ozone periodically, so the day side would be quite iffy even then.  But perhaps for a quieter red dwarf, perhaps there could be intervals where the day side, or the terminator could be tolerable without a space suit.  But not if it is like Mercury.  In that case, then only the terminator, if even that.  On the other hand if a Mercury at the equivalent for energy of our Ceres, then maybe the day side.

As for the night side, artificial lighting, perhaps from day side solar energy or fusion power.

So, terraforming those worlds if convenient, getting an Oxygen atmosphere, and of course having to protect it.

So, I might look for aliens of intelligence and capability, at such worlds.

That's enough.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-06-14 09:29:16)


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#13 2020-06-15 08:44:01

Void
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Re: How Oxygen atmospheres may arrive on a terrestrial planet.

I think there could be a new tool for terraforming.
I was thinking microwaves, but now am thinking lasers.

For the polar ice caps, and also to supplement solar panels where people might have energy needs.

I am thinking that a solar power plant in the L1 location.
I have some concerns about how to make it stay there, but I am guessing it could be done.

Really the intention would be to vaporize exposed water ice, to move the vapors up the atmospheric column.

I am not thinking death ray, just enough heat, to be useful for vaporizing ice.  And then other lasers, to keep the rising vortex warm to speed it up.
The wavelengths that water vapor absorbs:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-wavelen … d-by-water

The wavelengths that pure ice absorbs:
https://atmos.washington.edu/~sgw/PAPER … icemcx.pdf
Hmmm....It seems that water ice can absorb at least some of the U.V. spectrum.  I have been looking for that for a long time.

Light absorption from liquid water is spoken of in this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroma … n_by_water

Taking a break.

The reason I want to consider these notions, is that to inject water vapor into the upper atmosphere of Mars, it might be extracted directly from ice bodies that are otherwise hard to work with.

Polar ice caps, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater) on Mars.

In addition, I am starting to see that it might be possible to have a solar salt pond as a thermal collector, and for agriculture.

So, instead of injecting water vapor to the atmosphere from ice bodies in the temperate zones, the temperate zone ice bodies are conserved for other uses.

The absorption spectrum of water ice.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ab … ORM=IDINTS

I am over my head in this water business, but will continue to try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_p … er_and_ice

I will also, perhaps think of having orbital solar power plants, not necessarily L1 located.

So, if the laser light does not scatter too much in the Martian atmosphere and with distance, it may be possible to have power distribution by laser to not only manipulate the atmosphere to terraform, but to also have liquid solar power collectors at various locations on Mars.  To be sure this will be blocked entirely by serious global dust storms, so it is not perfect.

But with relatively large lakes, then long term energy storage could be implemented.

At this time I am thinking again of ice covered lakes.  But with glass greenhouses over them.  It would have to be a glass that could hold up to the duty.  Thermal shock in particular.  However if the laser wavelengths were not strongly absorbed by the glass, it is possible that the laser beams could slip through without too much heating of the glass.  That could also necessitate that the glass be kept reasonably clean of dust.

So, UV lasers might be used to vaporize polar ice.  If it could penetrate the atmosphere, then infrared lasers could be used to keep the vapor stream warmer, so the better to get it into the sky.

Visible light lasers would be used to inject energy into solar salt ponds through greenhouse glass and ice.

And so the same orbital panels assembly might have all three of the types of laser.

And as previously stated, it would be desirable that none of the lasers could be used as weapons.

And in the tradition of Elon Musk, these orbital stations could have battery storage of electricity, if that is the best method.

Here I go again, Lake Vanda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

Some differences though.  The ice may not need to be that thick.  The ice could be more transparent, as the formation of it could be done under a lower atmospheric pressure, internal to the greenhouses.  All the layers could be aerobic.

For efficiency, I think that the lasers wavelength could be that which would most efficiently reach the bottom of the lake through the various transparencies.  Regular sunshine, could do the most to power photosynthesis.

And there is at least some protection from the UV light by the ice, perhaps the glass, and then maybe the water itself.

Having said all that it could also be correct that Elon Musks 10,000 nuclear bombs could also get water vapor into the skies.
Don't want to leave that option out.


Done

Last edited by Void (2020-06-15 10:05:30)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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