Keystone XL pipeline

SpaceNut · 2018-09-24 18:26:49

The topic of the Keystone XL pipeline was in the politcs and was talked about quite a bit with regards to the polluting when it breaks and it has. Others have argued about energy independence for those that are raking in the cash from rising the price of oil that means higher gas prices plus higher electrical costs.

Other efforts were to stop the pipline build through Indian reservation land and burial grounds as well as land that should remain untouched.

Keystone XL pipeline construction to start in 2019

The developer of the Keystone XL oil pipeline plans to start construction next year, after a U.S. State Department review ordered by a federal judge concluded that major environmental damage from a leak is unlikely and could quickly be mitigated...
Montana ordered the U.S. State Department to conduct a more thorough review of the pipeline's proposed pathway after Nebraska state regulators changed the route.
$8 billion, 1,184-mile pipeline would have a "negligible to moderate" environmental impact under its normal operations, and continuous monitoring and automatic shut-off valves would help company officials quickly identify a leak or rupture.
Environmentalists, Native American tribes and a coalition of landowners have prevented the company from moving ahead with construction. In addition to the federal lawsuit in Montana that seeks to halt the project, opponents have a pending lawsuit before the Nebraska Supreme Court. Oral arguments in the Nebraska case aren't expected until next month.
Critics of the project have raised concerns about spills that could contaminate groundwater and the property rights of affected landowners.
The pipeline would carry up to 830,000 barrels of crude oil per day from Canada through Montana and South Dakota to Steele City, Nebraska, where it would connect with the original Keystone pipeline that runs down to Texas Gulf Coast refineries.

Terraformer · 2018-09-25 03:59:29

How about adding some skin in the game for the regulators? Make it clear that, if they sign off on it and a disaster happens, they (the people, not the organisation) can be sued for damages.

Last edited by Terraformer (2018-09-25 04:00:08)

JoshNH4H · 2018-09-25 09:21:17

If that were an economy-wide policy it seems like it would incentivize regulators to approve nothing, thus creating a de facto ban on new business operations in the US

GW Johnson · 2018-09-25 10:03:03

The real problem is the same as it has always been: lobby (bribery) money not to impose appropriate regulation, so that profit might be higher. Fix that, and these impasses resolve and go away. Tall order, fixing that!

Pipelines leak, because they are not maintained well enough, and/or they are not replaced often enough, or sometimes just bad luck. That's just a given. Fixing the bribery/lobby money issue does not change that.

There are places where the effects of a leak can be cleaned up without a lot of trouble. There are other places where a leak simply cannot be tolerated, such as into a water supply, or onto agricultural land.

For those sensitive places, you must plan on there eventually being a leak, and provide the means to contain it without spilling out loose into the environment. That is the extra cost that the bribery/lobby money allows pipeline builders and operators to avoid. The taxpayer ends up footing a much larger cost for the cleanup of the sensitive area. Great for the corporation, very bad for the public.

Where the pipeline is above ground, and there must be an access road anyway, curb the road, and use it to divert the spill into paved capture ponds.

Where the pipe is buried, line the hole with something impervious to oil, before you bed the pipe and bury it. Some sort of teflon-type plastic sheeting would do the trick.

Where the pipe crosses a waterway, double-wall the pipe. Simple as that.

The only reason these simple and cost effective means are not required by the regulators, is that lobby/bribery money.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2018-09-25 10:05:38)

SpaceNut · 2018-09-25 16:56:44

Simular issue to what we have found with natural or propane gas pipes recently. System not replaced often enough, faulty sensors bypassed instead of repair or replaced....Greed and lack of enforcing regulations.
Of course the other side is saying that its stopping growth and energy independance....

SpaceNut · 2018-11-10 12:18:38

full speed ahead said Trump on bypassing regulations and a Federal judge blocks Keystone Pipeline XL in major blow to Trump administration, citing disregard of climate issues

A federal judge's ruling this week blocking the controversial Keystone XL pipeline constitutes a rebuke of President Donald Trump, who signed an executive order days into his presidency restarting the project after the Obama administration had halted it over environmental concerns.
U.S. District Court Judge Brian Morris, of Montana, issued a 54-page ruling that boiled down to a simple message: Facts matter.

kbd512 · 2018-11-10 13:33:48

Predictably, a 9th circuit liberal activist judge ruled against creating a pipeline to pump American oil to our own refineries. All other sections of the Keystone pipeline have already been completed.

I noticed that these same judges are silent on the heavy metal contamination of ground water from solar panels using Arsenic and Cadmium, even though both substances are classified as harmful to the environment and toxic to humans. None of them said a word about the Obama administration's forced shift to lightbulbs containing Mercury, either. Perhaps the EPA should go after these polluters as well so that the rest of us can see the hypocrisy and duplicity of these activist judges on full display.

US DoE's and the EPA's assertion that such heavy metals are not harmful to the environment or human life run directly counter to the findings of the NIH. Facts never matter when there's a regressive political agenda to pursue.

NIH - Leaching of cadmium and tellurium from cadmium telluride (CdTe) thin-film solar panels under simulated landfill conditions

More trees have been cut and more environmental damage done by the idiots in California starting forest fires with their camping activities (regressives just out enjoying nature, by burning it to the ground) than would ever be affected by the Keystone pipeline. That said, this has never been about facts, which clearly don't matter to Marxists / post-modernists.

Lack of enforcing regulations is the fault of the government. Those natural gas pipelines that exploded didn't magically fail in the past year. That was the result of decades of neglect.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-10 15:30:29

The energy cost was the reason for the bulb replacement with fluorescent lights as the LED had not made enough cost change to make it possible at the time. To which when a led was $20 for the comparison of $1 for the incandescent and $5 for the florescent; what do you think is going to happen.

Doe and Epa are not law enforcement only cleanup and creation of the laws to which Trump rolled many back already....

kbd512 · 2018-11-10 17:01:07

SpaceNut,

Do you know what a non-sequitur is?

This isn't about what a lightbulb costs, it's about contamination of the environment in a way that's hazardous to human life, which is what the 9th circuit judge claimed in his ruling. The judge cited environmental destruction as the reason for stopping the Keystone pipeline. We all know that's a lie. The judge doesn't care about our environment and never did. None of these 9th circuit clowns had a thing to say about the mass production of mercury-filled lightbulbs, which have been dumped into our landfills by the millions.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-10 17:14:01

Sort of hard to do when these were rolled back as it does go against what we know... Do you know that these are just some of the removal or weaking of rules under Trump regulation of Epa as they could not get rich....

The Trump administration has hit the pause button on an Obama-era regulation aimed at limiting the dumping of toxic metals such as arsenic and mercury.... Trump's EPA rolls back Obama-era coal ash regulations, It can include arsenic, lead, mercury and chromium, experts say.

The reason was due to numerous leaks in existing pipes and no safe guards to the environement in the most sensative areas of water....these all cost to the installer of the pipe...

As for the landfill dumping of these and many other contaminating metals there are no signage to indicate what can or can not go to the land fill other than tv's, lead acid batteries and a few more things. Even your cell phone batteries are not indicated anywhere at a dump thou it is on the instructions for disposal on the cellphone content. So the consumer is at fault as well as the dumps which take these materials without proper seperating of them from the regular trash.

kbd512 · 2018-11-10 18:47:41

SpaceNut,

In 2014, when former President Obama was President, his EPA Administrator refused to declare coal ash as toxic waste (even though it is). Nice try, though.

EPA Will Not Declare Coal Ash A Hazardous Waste

From the article:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency on Friday issued its first-ever regulations on coal ash, a toxic byproduct of burning coal for power. But to environmentalists’ chagrin, the agency declined to designate the substance as a hazardous waste.
Instead, coal ash will be regulated similarly to household garbage. EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy assured reporters on Friday that designating coal ash as solid waste, rather than hazardous waste, would be sufficient to prevent catastrophic spills of coal ash from the ponds the substance is often stored in, and to prevent it from leaching into groundwater, as it has in the past.

Household garbage gets shipped to the landfill. That's how the former EPA Administrator of the enlightened one wanted to treat it, so that's how we're going to treat it.

Here's what the regulations actually say (I'm reasonably sure you never actually read about what the changes are and are just regurgitating leftist talking points):

Disposal of Coal Combustion Residuals from Electric Utilities

Anyway, back to Keystone...

Re-route the pipeline around sensitive areas and tribal lands, but the Sierra Club doesn't get to dictate US environmental since they are the same morons who protested the use of nuclear power that was being implemented to limit the use of fossil fuels for electrical power decades before our current crop of envirowackos began their incessant sophomoric drivel about "climate change".

Let's blame President Trump for the needless problems that former President Obama created. This is the Democrat Party's model for pulling the wool over the eyes of their supporters and pointing fingers at others who refuse to be unnecessarily burdened by the problems they created. Create a problem where none existed and then blame the Republican Party. It's a brilliant idea, given how ignorant the average voter is.

Was there something wrong with incandescent light bulbs? No.

Were LED lightbulbs going to replace them as soon as they were economically viable? Yes.

Well then, why create a law that de-facto banned incandescent light bulbs? To assert "control" over peoples' personal lives and to create pointless problems for everyone else when none previously existed.

But sure, let's blame the consumer or the land fill operator for a problem that never existed before the Democrats created it. That's pretty simplistic, but I still see right through it because this is not an ideological problem for me. If President Trump made a law that was a de-facto ban on incandescent light bulbs that led to a Mercury-filled replacement, I wouldn't support such a law now, either.

I'm going to keep refuting and cornering this circular logic and non-sequitur spree until we get to the heart of the issue or we run out of leftist ideological talking points and have to admit that this is just more anti-Trump drivel, with absolutely no regard for our environment.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-11 18:25:39

The actual phase started elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out … ight_bulbs

https://www.epa.gov/cfl/how-energy-inde … ight-bulbs
The incandescent light bulb, which wastes 90 percent of its energy use as heat, not light.
They tried to get more efficiency from the power to light output with regards to incandescent bulbs.

https://www.livescience.com/42025-5-myt … -eisa.html

https://reason.com/reasontv/2014/01/09/ … candescent

This ban was seven years in the making. The 2007 Energy Bill – enthusiastically signed by then President George W Bush – effectively killed incandescents light bulbs via energy efficiency mandates. 100 and 75 watt bulbs were phased out in previous years and now cheap 60 and 40 light bulbs – once the very symbol of a good idea – verboten in the Land of the Free.
The ban was pushed by light bulb makers eager to up-sell customers on longer-lasting and much more expensive halogen, compact fluourescent, and LED lighting. When customers balked at paying more for home lighting, General Electric, Sylvania, and Philips did what corporate behemoths always do: They turned to the government for regulation that rigs the market in their favor.

The power of lobbying....

SpaceNut · 2018-11-21 18:44:28

This what happens when you can not get oil cleaned up as Massive 14-Year Oil Spill Ordered To Be Cleaned As Leaks Continue

Taylor Energy company’s oil platform was destroyed by Hurricane Ivan in 2004. Leaking 29,400 gallons, or 700 barrels, of oil per day, which would equate to roughly 150 million gallons total.

Time for a drink...
BBPXj66.img?h=518&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

kbd512 · 2018-11-22 06:30:38

SpaceNut,

Ya know, no energy source we have is without impact to our environment. It just is, and that's all there is to it.

The people who are anti-coal / anti-oil / anti-gas complain about the fact that it throws particulate matter into the air. Well, guess what? Before we were burning coal and oil we were burning feces and wood. Coal is cleaner than feces and wood. Oil is cleaner than coal. Gas is cleaner than oil.

The people who are anti-photovoltaic complain about the fact that photovoltaics contain toxic metals. Well, guess what? There's no particulate matter or objectionable gases emitted into the atmosphere and the heavy metals can be recycled.

The people who are anti-solar thermal or anti-wind turbine complain about the fact that the heliostats roast a few birds or the blades of the turbines whack a few birds. Well, guess what? There's no particulate matter or objectionable gases emitted into the atmosphere AND these systems CAN run uninterrupted 24/7, unlike photovoltaics.

The people who are anti-nuclear complain about the fact that fission generates radioactive wastes. Well, guess what? There's no particulate matter or objectionable gases emitted into the atmosphere AND these systems run uninterrupted 24/7/365 at greater than 90% rated capacity. Most of the wastes that are generated are not actually wastes, but fuel that still contains 97%+ of the original energy content of the Uranium that was dug out of the ground. The actual quantity of wastes generated is absolutely tiny compared to all other forms of energy production.

Moral of the story?

If you want to make omelets, then by definition you're gonna break some eggs. We have to deal with the problems like adults and stop getting wrapped around the axle that it's not perfect (it'll never be perfect), that accidents have happened (humans are involved), or that the energy source isn't as pure as the driven snow (perfection isn't reality since we're involved). There are very real downsides associated with all forms of energy production that are very ugly, but if you think those problems are ugly then you should really get an eye full of what life looks like without all those wonderful energy options that science has created for us. I don't have to guess about what it looks like because I've seen it first hand. It's not very pretty. I think all energy sources have their uses. Pollution is obviously bad, but starving to death before pollution ever has a chance to kill anyone is far worse. We're doing the best we can with what we have and know how to do, no matter what anyone believes to the contrary.

Tesla has more money to burn than most of us will ever contemplate having and they're still using Lithium-ion for electrical energy storage. If something better actually existed and was ready for use, you can bet your last dollar that they'd use it. They're not because nothing else is actually ready, despite all claims to the contrary. Our national laboratories are trying anything and everything an AI-driven computer program can dream up. Progress has been slow because it's clearly not an easy problem with a simple solution. It's not a conspiracy to pollute the environment. Tesla hit upon something that actually works and they're using it to the best of their ability. Everyone else in the oil and gas industry is doing the same. Industry incorporates newer and better technology as real world testing demonstrates the viability of the newer technology.

Last but not least... There's no problem so bad that you can't make it worse. I think starving humanity of needed energy resources because we don't have better solutions at this exact moment is the exact opposite of solving the clean energy problem. The Keystone XL pipeline is currently a better solution than the alternative solutions of shipping or trucking crude oil to refineries.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-22 11:16:27

It seems to be ok to break the egg but its the cleanup that all do not want to afford and that is shirking there responsibility. With regards to clean we can do better and we should already be adult enough to do so not just looking to get rich and then say good by. On the poor end of the scale we can make steady improvements but the pie in the sky can not only be for the rich either.

kbd512 · 2018-11-23 22:20:26

SpaceNut,

Our government should compel our corporations to correct their environmental mistakes through legal action, if necessary, but not attempt to take punitive actions against corporations for supplying available energy resources. A corporation acting in good faith that made a mistake and reported the mistake promptly and immediately took action to clean up or otherwise correct a problem should not be further burdened with punitive measures. That's clearly not the case in the instance you pointed out.

There was no need to create legislation regarding the burning of coal, for example. The infrastructure for burning coal was crumbling and the coal burners were nearly always replaced with cheaper / better / faster gas turbines burning methane. In Texas, the CO2 from burning coal is captured, liquefied, and used in fracking and other industrial processes to obtain more energy or more products.

In Pennsylvania, the crude oil was literally bubbling out of the ground. The companies that came along, scooped it up, and turned it into useful energy products and lubricants were not obligated to clean up the natural world. The tar pits in Brea are not an ecological disaster. They existed before humans ever did. These energy resources simply are. Any corporation lead by people with functional brains and not unduly hindered by irresponsible government activities should want to lap up 700 barrels of light sweet crude per day and turn it into money.

All I see when I look at that oil slick is $261,100 per day being squandered at current prices, or $95,301,500 per year. I think I speak for every middle class American when I say that I'd like my company to earn an extra $95M in revenue per year so I could get my cut of that. By my numbers, the idiots who did that have squandered $1,334,221,000 over the 14 years they've allowed that to happen. That might be pocket change to President Trump or Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, but it ain't to me. If I was on the board of a company who squandered that kind of money, I would have the jobs of anyone who did that. The first rule of capitalism is to make a product everyone wants and to sell every bit of it that you can lay a hand to. If your product is floating away with the ocean current, then you can't do that. That sure seems like common sense to me, but I'm very unsure that much of that still exists today.

elderflower · 2018-11-25 04:56:37

The ultimate fate of exposed coal seams and of leaking oil and natural gas at the surface of the earth is to either be oxidised to CO2, or to be adsorbed onto sediments and reburied. If it is metabolised by bacteria that is only a stage on the way to one of these end points. If it is used by humans, the same applies. It is the side effects of the human mediated, massive increase in the rate that these materials are liberated from the crust and either oxidised or buried that is the current issue.
I suppose it is possible for some methane to escape from the upper atmosphere, but that isn't likely to be significant. The earth manages to retain water (MW 17) so most methane (MW 16) will also be retained . Musks efforts to export methane from the earth may hugely increase losses to space, but aren't likely to have much global effect.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-25 10:40:18

Good example Kbd512 and I agree with you.
elderflower you point out just a few possible means to change waste into not being waste which is very important.

Case point in places that have contaminated water a Sabatier reactor would be key to creating clean water while making a clean fuel for reuse. Then when its burn capture and do as you have suggested or recycle it back into the reactor. We could grow algae from it to capture the waste co2 as well.

SpaceNut · 2020-07-06 19:34:28

The back and forth start stop Judge suspends Dakota Access pipeline over environmental concerns

SpaceNut · 2021-02-14 18:18:53

Another example of not doing the project with in the laws and regulations.

Redesign for environmental conditions, do not cut corners.

Fact check: Biden temporarily banned new oil and gas leasing on public lands

SpaceNut · 2022-04-20 17:28:38

bump

SpaceNut · 2022-05-27 18:34:03

In several of our water topics and natural gas we have found that the US has a crap ton of pipelines in use.
Natural gas pipeline from the Permian Basin to Katy is a step closer to becoming reality

The Matterhorn is expected to be able to move up to 2.5 billion cubic feet per day of natural gas from Waha, Texas. 490-mile pipeline set to carry natural gas from the Permian Basin to Katy, Texas in the greater Houston area. To power a regular home for one day it would take around 325 cubic feet of natural gas.

SpaceNut · 2022-06-12 20:38:02

Not specific to keystone or the type but shows the chances Arizona ‘Pipeline Fire’ forces evacuations, suspect arrested

SpaceNut · 2022-12-11 18:12:59

Kansas Creek Oil Spill Biggest In Keystone Pipeline History

The operator, Canada-based TC Energy, said the pipeline that runs from Canada to Oklahoma lost about 14,000 barrels, or 588,000 gallons. A U.S. Government Accountability Office report last year said there had been 22 previous spills along the Keystone system since it began operating in 2010, most of them on TC Energy property and fewer than 20 barrels. The total from those 22 events was a little less than 12,000 barrels, the report said.
The nearly 2,700-mile (4345-kilometer) Keystone pipeline carries thick, Canadian tar-sands oil to refineries in Illinois, Oklahoma and Texas, with about 600,000 barrels moving per day from Canada to Cushing, Oklahoma. Concerns about spills fouling water helped spur opposition to a new, 1,200 mile (1,900 kilometers) Keystone XL pipeline, and the company pulled the plug last year after President Joe Biden canceled a permit for it.

While cleanup is ongoing the issue is Canada's TC Energy said on Sunday it has not yet determined the cause of the Keystone oil pipeline leak last week in the United States, while also not giving a timeline as to when the pipeline will resume operation

The pipeline operator said that it has more than 250 people working on the leak, including third-party environmental specialists, adding that it is continuously monitoring air quality and presently there are no indications of adverse health or public concerns

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-count … 56317.html

kbd512 · 2022-12-11 19:05:57

SpaceNut,

This is your future with Lithium and metals mining:

This is South America (Chile, I think):
CMDKEcTWwAQvuLQ?format=jpg&name=small

This is Bolivia:
mg22830430.300-2_800.jpg?width=800

This is the Animus River her in the US (New Mexico / Utah area):
epa-says-colorado-mine-spill-equivalent-to-4-to-7-days-of-ongoing-acid-drainage.jpg

There are plenty more where those photos came from. The difference is that those are many many square miles that aren't "potentially polluted" (because they're "actually polluted" and none of our electric-everything snobs bat an eye at that), and to convert even a fraction of the vehicles to electric, many many more square miles of land will look like that.

Don't whine about oil spills without showing the intentionally created lakes of toxic chemicals from batteries and electronics manufacturing.

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#1 2018-09-24 18:26:49

Keystone XL pipeline

#2 2018-09-25 03:59:29

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#3 2018-09-25 09:21:17

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#4 2018-09-25 10:03:03

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#5 2018-09-25 16:56:44

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#6 2018-11-10 12:18:38

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#7 2018-11-10 13:33:48

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#8 2018-11-10 15:30:29

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#9 2018-11-10 17:01:07

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#10 2018-11-10 17:14:01

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#11 2018-11-10 18:47:41

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#12 2018-11-11 18:25:39

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#13 2018-11-21 18:44:28

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#14 2018-11-22 06:30:38

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#15 2018-11-22 11:16:27

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#16 2018-11-23 22:20:26

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#17 2018-11-25 04:56:37

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#18 2018-11-25 10:40:18

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#19 2020-07-06 19:34:28

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#20 2021-02-14 18:18:53

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#21 2022-04-20 17:28:38

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#22 2022-05-27 18:34:03

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#23 2022-06-12 20:38:02

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#24 2022-12-11 18:12:59

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

#25 2022-12-11 19:05:57

Re: Keystone XL pipeline

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