President Bush, The Bible, and Mars - Does "Left Behind" hold us back?

Bill White · 2003-03-07 14:43:47

Business Week Online posted this article Bush, the Bible and Iraq on March 7th.

This resonated with me as I have been drafting, on and off, an article looking into whether the theology of the "Rapture" undermines popular support for humans to Mars. After all many polls suggest that 40% of Americans believe in the "End Times" scenario in one form or another and I suspect the vast majority of that 40% voted for President Bush rather than Al Gore. Can we speculate on what percentage of Bush voters believe that the standard theories of evolution contradict their faith?

If the "Rapture" and the "Second Coming" will indeed occur within the next 100 years, for example, why bother with Mars?

President Bush won the 2000 election by the narrowest of margins. Investing in Mars commits to a vision that humanity's secular future extends many centuries or even many millenia into the future and runs contrary to the world view held by a significant percentage of his supporters. Is this relevant to our concerns for seeking public support for humans to Mars? Thoughts?

Palomar · 2003-03-07 15:13:19

If the "Rapture" and the "Second Coming" will indeed occur within the next 100 years, for example, why bother with Mars?

*I grew up with these sorts of folks; therefore, I feel I have specific insights which justify a response.

Your question is precisely -the- question, Bill. I don't know if you read my recent thread "Family"...my mother and aunt are fundamentalist Christians. I asked them, during their "stop all space program funding" spiel, if at least ::part:: of the reason for their being anti-space exploration/anti-space program funding was due to their belief that 1) "God already knows everything anyway" (thus, why need humans be curious or concerned?), and 2) since they believe the "End Times" are upon us, why bother doing/planning anything? They said no, that religion wasn't a part of their opinion -- that they'd be anti-space program/anti-space exploration even if they weren't fundamentalist Christians.

But this is a valid topic you raise. After all, if certain people believe the Rapture, Great Tribulation and New Jerusalem are literally "just around the corner," why plan anything at all? Within the context of that belief system, isn't it all rather pointless? And, in my experience, it does little good to ask a logical question such as, "Well, haven't the End Times been considered to be upon mankind for nearly 2000 years now (i.e., should mankind have stopped all scientific query and stifled all desire for advancement since approximately 33 AD because of the warning of the End Times)?" Their argument will be, "But the End Times ARE upon us now, and the Bible warns us that people will doubt/question the nearness of the End Times..." etc., etc.; the implication being, of course, that you've -got- to believe the End Times are "nigh," otherwise you're a heretical mocker/doubter.

I've been tempted to raise this very issue in the past, but decided not to. However, since you did, I decided to respond.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-03-07 15:37:41

*I thought I'd mention that I recently ran into at least one religion which is pro-science: A man my husband did business with (auto parts) on Monday gave me some Baha'i literature to read while they were waiting on a car part. I read it, and was surprised to read this: "declares the purpose of religion to be the promoter of amity and concord, proclaims its essential harmony with science, and recognizes it (science) as the foremost agency for the orderly progress of human society."

I about fell over when I read this. A pro-science religion? It's the first that I've known of.

I don't intend to join this religion/faith, btw. I just thought I'd give some credit to this particular religion; I believe in giving credit where credit is due -- trying to be fair.

However, I just now recalled (and thus am editing this post) that Cyrus mentioned the Baha'i do believe something along the lines of the Rapture and etc. I have no idea about the particulars, however, or what their stance is regarding space exploration and the like.

::Getting a headache already::

I probably won't go much further with this discussion.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2003-03-07 16:10:54

I believe this issue may be important because the "call to settle space" that has been expressed so movingly by people like Carl Sagan and Gerard O'Neill and Bob Zubrin does resonate well with secular humanists but fails utterly with a significant percentage of the American population.

Palomar · 2003-03-07 16:14:43

*Okay, I just got off the phone with Cyrus, who is a member of the Baha'i Faith (mentioned above...auto salvage guy); I telephoned him long distance, no less. I asked him how his religion feels about NASA, space exploration, missions to the Moon, Mars, etc., etc. He said that religion and science are to go hand in hand, that they have no problem whatsoever with the advancement of the space program, exploration, colonization, etc., etc.

He also called me "sweetheart" twice. Well...that made the phone call doubly worth it!

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-03-07 16:27:47

I believe this issue may be important because the "call to settle space" that has been expressed so movingly by people like Carl Sagan and Gerard O'Neill and Bob Zubrin does resonate well with secular humanists but fails utterly with a significant percentage of the American population.

*I don't think there is any "may be" about it...it IS important, and you are right on the money.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-07 18:45:48

I don't know much about the American religious thing, although we in Australia do hear about fundamentalists and I have a couple of books about the threat to science of all that creationist bulldust.

But this discussion reminded me of an episode in the life of Dr. Gilbert Levin, of Viking Labeled Release Experiment fame. Apparently, Dr. Levin's son, Henry, was interested in studying some kind of chemistry (a chip off the old block, by the sounds of it! ).
Henry asked his father to take him to Brown University to have a look at the facilities - in part, at least, because Viking Imaging Team Leader, Thomas Mutch, was a teacher there.
Mutch took the two Levins to see the chairman of the biochemistry department. When Mutch told the professor that Dr. Levin was one of the scientists who had an experiment aboard Viking to detect life on Mars, the chemistry professor said to Gil Levin: "Life detection experiment on Mars? Now wasn't that an expensive waste of time. The Scriptures certainly tell us there can be no life anyplace but on Earth."!!!!!!!

Brown University is classified as an important educational establishment, as I understand it (? )
If the chairman of the Biochemistry Department at such a school can believe this kind of nonsense, it sends shivers of apprehension down my spine about the state of the American scientific community in general!
Though it would certainly help to explain some of NASA's motives with regard to Mars and the search for life there - motives I've questioned in other threads at New Mars.
???

dicktice · 2003-03-08 09:02:16

Cindy: Take me, for example--I go into "raptures" whenever I hear of anything positive going on in space. The pronoun "in" by the way, in that sentence seems crazy if you analyze it... as for example: "They were launched into outer space." Weird, but there seems no other way to express it, but "in" in English. (I'm beginning to hate that word.)
Well...here's lookin' atcha, Schweetheart....

Palomar · 2003-03-08 10:17:11

Well...here's lookin' atcha, Schweetheart....

*Nice Bogart imitation. And by a triocular man, no less! :laugh:

Cindy -aka- Lauren

dicktice · 2003-03-09 12:33:49

Cindy: Not so, since I had my cataract operations, I'm only bifocal with distance vision, whereas I spent my whole life previously "near sighted." Beats goin' blind, babe!

Ad Astra · 2003-03-09 17:16:03

Regular visitors to the Enterprise Mission know that, to the contrary, both the current president and the elder President Bush have a fascination with Mars. Bush I called for an expensive and lengthy Space Exploration Initiative that would conclude with humans-on-Mars, Bush II is funding a nuclear rocket program that will enable humans on Mars.

I believe that the Bushes and those of a similar mindset hold a fondness for the space program because they still remember Apollo and they want to re-kindle the pride that the moon landings brought to America. I do not think this current administration will actually call for humans to Mars (even on the occasion of a return to flight for the space shuttle,) but a future administration (Hillary? Bill Frist? Condy Rice?) will probably make the challenge once the Chinese officially commit to a lunar landing.

Palomar · 2003-10-21 10:03:25

*I remembered this thread from earlier this year. I've recently seen 2 news items related to this character (a dime a dozen little hatemonger):

Mahathir

I just laugh at his "logic": That his statements "must be true" because of the world reaction they provoked. Well, Mr. Mahathir, silence gives assent...and those who disagree with you will speak up. But go ahead and flatter yourself, moron.

I simply do not understand the level of hatred for the Jews down throughout history. I have nothing against them.

I highly doubt there are any "prophecies" in the bible or other alleged divinely-inspired texts. However, I certainly can see how OTHERS believing alleged prophecies as being "true" can and are working toward realizing it. I know of certain Christian evangelical sects who actually pray for Armageddon to occur. We've got radical extremist Muslims calling for the extermination of the Jews, and there's the hairball mess of U.S. involvement in the Middle East. Based on what knowledge I currently have, I believe Palestinians own the land which Israelis have settled on, and I understand how that would cause resentment and anger among the Palestinians, and result in strife. However, it seems all of the entire Arab world is united in loathing and hatred of the Israelis, as if it is their problem as well (an Arab vs Jews not Palestinians vs. Israelis problem). I know the reply could be "Well, if America stayed out of it, the other Arab nations would back down as well." Maybe that's true, but I don't care how Austria and the Czech Republic currently feel about each other.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if all these factors coalesce some day into a very explosive and horrific world war.

Some people want this to happen, others believe it's destined and can't be avoided. That sure looks like a recipe for disaster to me.

If we do get to Mars, I wonder how a Jewish population there would be treated and received. That'll be one for the history books.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2003-10-21 15:57:34

*I remembered this thread from earlier this year. I've recently seen 2 news items related to this character (a dime a dozen little hatemonger):
Mahathir

A friend sent me the transcript of that speech just yesterday, with the comment "What does it say when a world leader can say that Jews run the world in front of 52 other world leaders and get a standing ovation?"

Personally, I don't get the whole anti-semitism thing either. I see why the Palestinians would be a little pissed, but that's life. Irrationality of it aside, I expect a major Arab-Israeli war sometime in the next 25 years, maybe the next 10. In that case I'm unenthusiastically rooting for Israel.

Another anecdote comes to mind, several years back I was having lunch with a flaming liberal Jewish acquaintance and a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam. I'm a confessed and not quite reformed Fascist, making it quite the odd group. Malik (of the NoI) made a comment, only half joking, about jews controlling the media (the very media we were all working for at the time) After the assertion was vehemently pounded, with a grin he asked "Then explain how come Seinfeld is on six damn times a day."

Palomar · 2003-10-21 18:41:27

several years back I was having lunch with a flaming liberal Jewish acquaintance and a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam.

*Erm...a Jewish Muslim?

If you don't want to pursue this, that's fine, I'll respect that...but why did he convert to Islam?

I honestly haven't heard of that before. It's as shocking as if Hugh Hefner were to "out" himself as always have been/always will be GAY. Sorry, maybe I shouldn't say it (I know there's lots of good Muslim people out there), but it sounds as bizarre as "I'm a Jewish Nazi" -- given the history of the region and all that.

Care to give a few insights as to your acquaintance's choice in that regard??

--Cindy

P.S.: I never liked "Seinfeld" -- too off the wall.

Cobra Commander · 2003-10-21 18:54:50

several years back I was having lunch with a flaming liberal Jewish acquaintance and a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam.
*Erm...a Jewish Muslim?

No, a Jew and a Muslim, two different people. Sorry about the confusion. Interesting and odd conversation though...

dicktice · 2003-10-21 19:14:27

Cindy: Do those fundamentalist "Bible thumpers" mean the End of the World, only? If we don't rile 'em too much, maybe they'll permit us, who rather like life as it is, to spend the time remaining, money, and resources they won't be needing where they're going anyway, in order to develop the means of launching ourselves off this doomed planet before the End, to go and live somewhere else, like Mars for instance.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-22 07:11:34

Cindy:-

... I believe Palestinians own the land which Israelis have settled on, ...

Nope. The land was given to the jews by Yahweh, a gift by God to His chosen people.

Palomar · 2003-10-22 07:24:56

Cindy:-
... I believe Palestinians own the land which Israelis have settled on, ...
Nope. The land was given to the jews by Yahweh, a gift by God to His chosen people.

*Shaun...

...you are being facetious, no?

This is one of those rare times when I can't "read" you.

I'm just waiting for the first intensive religious group to proclaim certain sections of Mars as being "holy" and "theirs, by divine right." Good grief.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2003-10-22 14:59:49

I'm just waiting for the first intensive religious group to proclaim certain sections of Mars as being "holy" and "theirs, by divine right." Good grief.

I've always preferred the term "manifest destiny" myself.

clark · 2003-10-22 15:04:29

I talked to god, He said it was mine. If you have any issues with this, take it up with him.

What? You don't know how to talk to him?!

Here, let me help you get in touch- [stab you with sharp implement somewhere vital] :laugh:

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-22 17:55:00

Cindy, you could say I was being facetious but it was more a case of expressing the hopelessness of dealing with any group driven by religious beliefs, be they fundamentalist jews, muslims or christians.
In this case, the orthodox jews don't need to compromise with Palestinians because their position is rock-solid: "We're God's chosen people, this is the promised land, God gave it to us." End of argument.

CC is probably right. If the 'roadmap to peace' is successfully nullified by continuous violence and retaliation, then something's got to give.
Mahathir lives in Australia's backyard (or we in his) and his attitude is well known to us. Your summary of his character, Cindy, is right on the money; I wouldn't turn my back on the guy and I'm glad he's retiring. I wouldn't be surprised if his bad influence continues to sully political relationships in the region for years to come, though.
If I were a jew in Israel, Mahathir's words and the way they were received (I didn't hear about the standing ovation until CC mentioned it) would give me a sick sinking feeling in my gut. Israel is already surrounded by arab countries who've made no secret of their ultimate intention to wipe Israel off the Middle East map all together. Now we see dozens more countries who see Israel in the same light and actually have the confidence to show their hatred to the whole world. This bodes ill for Israel and should help us understand their apparent intransigence.
The jewish people have been on the ropes before (big time! ) and their resolve never to allow themselves to be victimised again is palpable. They simply will not be pushed around by those they perceive to be implacable enemies and will do whatever it takes to ensure their survival.

So there you have it. An irresistible force (the hatred of the muslims) versus an immovable object (the nation of Israel sitting on land given to them by God Himself).
Throw in hard-line muslim hatred of western 'decadence', the perception that America represents the worst excesses of that decadence, and America's support for Israel, and the stage is set for a Greek tragedy to blow your socks off!
[And I haven't even mentioned the fact that 'the dome of the rock', one of Islam's most sacred sites, is right there on 'the temple mount', where the jews are required by their religious imperatives to rebuild the temple of Solomon!! You couldn't design a more intractable and entrenched problem if you spent your whole life trying! ]

People like Mahathir, in positions of power, have the ability to help or hinder world peace. This nasty little demagogue has abused that power and chosen the path of hatred. If there is a hell, islamic or otherwise, I hope this moron gets a nice warm position in the boiler room, next to his mentor, Adolf Hitler!
???

Palomar · 2003-10-22 19:35:23

*Hi Shaun:

I figured your response would be in a similar vein to what it is.

If you have the desire and time to answer a question, if you feel comfortable answering it, I'd like to know (since you live near the area):

What's up with Islam becoming such a powerful religious presence in Asia?! I was surprised years ago to discover the level of Islamicism in Africa; I've heard (can't recall the source, sorry) that many Africans consider Islam their "indigent religion." Yet Islam was born on the sands of Arabia, which isn't Africa. Unless I'm mistaken and Muhammad first started his religion in Egypt (?). Most of Africa was as Europe was in the past -- folk religions, paganism, etc. Correct me if wrong, someone, but -- historically speaking -- Islam is no more the "indigent" religion of Africa than Christianity was of ancient Europe; both religions got their start in the Israel and Saudi Arabia area.

Okay, back to Asia: What is the draw of Islam there?! Is Buddhism, Confuscism, Taoism really on the downward slide?

And Asians picking up the "battle" against the Jews. I wonder if Mahathir The Stupid has ever even seen a Jewish person with his own two eyes. Regardless, picking up an entirely different regions' battle is as incomprehensible to me as my joining some religion in Albania (while living here in NM), and then throwing my time and energy into hatemongering against a group of people nextdoor to Albania, which some of the Albanian religionists absolutely hate (and who I've probably never laid eyes on).

I don't get it. Anyway...I am amazed at the population of Muslims in Asia.

Must be those rich sheiks funneling $$$$ into poor communities for cleaner water, better education...and a fresh crop of converts to swell the ranks.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-23 01:14:52

Cindy, I'm not qualified to answer your questions with any authority.
As regards the penetration of Islam into Africa, I can only assume that it came via the arabs in Super-Saharan African countries like Egypt (as you suggested), Algeria, Morocco and Libya. Remember, also, that arab slavers plied their trade southward into the Indian Ocean for centuries, with Zanzibar one of their chief ports.
There's an interesting scenario for you: Arabs stealing human beings for slaves and, at the same time, bequeathing their religion to the very people they were violating!

As for South-East Asia, I have no idea why Islam has proven so popular in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, unless arab traders were again instrumental in its propagation.
Apparently Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. Yet again, I don't know why.
???

clark · 2003-10-23 06:00:37

I think you answered your own question.

Okay, back to Asia: What is the draw of Islam there?! Is Buddhism, Confuscism, Taoism really on the downward slide?

Must be those rich sheiks funneling $$$$ into poor communities for cleaner water, better education...and a fresh crop of converts to swell the ranks.

When the belly is full, you are more recpetive to what someone has to say. And, acts do more to convice people to hear about your belief system than just words themselves- they see the results.

There's an interesting scenario for you: Arabs stealing human beings for slaves and, at the same time, bequeathing their religion to the very people they were violating!

As opposed to the European Christians...

As for South-East Asia, I have no idea why Islam has proven so popular in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, unless arab traders were again instrumental in its propagation.
Apparently Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. Yet again, I don't know why.

Take a look at population growth rates and you may see a connection. Islam is dominant in many 'third-word' countries, which also have the higehst birth rates. Judeo-Christianity is dominant in mostly the industrilized 'first-world', which is experiencing a lower birth rate, or even decline.

I also believe Islam got to Africa first, before Chrisitianity was spread en masse by European Colonials, so that may explain why people consider it to be their 'indigent' religion.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-23 07:46:38

All very good points. Thanks, Clark.

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