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#1 2018-08-26 15:12:26

SpaceNut
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NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

We really do not have a general unmanned missions folder so it goes here.
It is a 800 million dollar mission to get a sample of the early planetary system.
It has already been on an aproximate 2 year journey to catch its target.

Asteroid-Sampling NASA Probe Gets 1st Look at Its Target

Bennu will loom larger and larger in OSIRIS-REx's crosshairs over the next few months. If everything goes according to plan, the probe will arrive at the space rock on Dec. 3. It will perform a series of close flybys, taking measurements that will establish the asteroid's mass, and then begin circling Bennu on Dec. 31.

OSIRIS-REx will study Bennu from orbit for a while, and then spiral down to snag a sizable sample from the rock's surface in the middle of 2020. The spacecraft will depart Bennu in March 2021, and the sample, encased in a special return capsule, will parachute down to Earth in September 2023.

Bennu is a carbon-rich asteroid, the type that many scientists think delivered the chemical building blocks of life, along with lots of water, to our planet via impacts long ago. So, analyses of the returned sample in labs around the world could reveal key insights about the early solar system and the origin of life on Earth, mission team members have said.

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#2 2018-12-05 07:42:05

Void
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

So it has arrived, sort of pending orbit though.

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2018/1 … 543933001/
Nice picture!  I think that general science missions like this are very important for calibrating our notions of reality.

Here is historical material generated in Aug. 8, 2013.  I think it is a good read.
https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/ne … -asteroids
This is of interest to me because it seems to say a lot about asteroid types.
It somewhat addresses the notion of contemplating mining asteroids.
Not a hot item to mine yet, the article indicates that Bennu is expected to have a content of Tar, and clay, which should contain water.  At the asteroid also, is expected a lot of Carbon and metals.
…..

On the topic of mining various places, I have had a thought progression.

1) Is it worth mining NEO's, or just going to the Moon if you want minerals.  (Or will SpaceX and others make it cheaper to bring up minerals from the Earth.

2) Then I got thinking about Phobos and Demos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Quote:

Physical characteristics[edit]

Deimos, like Mars's other moon, Phobos, has spectra, albedos, and densities similar to those of a C- or D-type asteroid[citation needed]. Like most bodies of its size, Deimos is highly non-spherical with triaxial dimensions of 15 × 12.2 × 11 km,[4] making it 56% of the size of Phobos. Deimos is composed of rock rich in carbonaceous material, much like C-type asteroids and carbonaceous chondrite meteorites[citation needed]. It is cratered, but the surface is noticeably smoother than that of Phobos, caused by the partial filling of craters with regolith[citation needed]. The regolith is highly porous and has a radar-estimated density of only 1.471 g/cm3.[16]
Escape velocity from Deimos is 5.6 m/s.[3] The apparent magnitude of Deimos is 12.45.[5]

There is also speculation that these two moons were formed by debris from an impact of Mars.  In which case I would have to wonder if they are wearing makeup powder from impacts from small "C" objects.  I just don't know.

I bet I am already upsetting the Mars direct people.  Don't worry.  Perhaps Phobos and Demos will have tars and clays.  But I am willing to "Go with the flow", and hope the SpaceX plan works as intended to access the surface of Mars.  Phobos and Demos can wait.

3) But....This is from 2013, so I don't know how its views are upheld at this point.  It holds that in some cases impact craters can hold the materials of the impactor in the central peak.  They are referring to the Moon also which of course does not have atmosphere to slow down objects at all.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/alie … -1.1317538
Quote:

It was believed any collision that big would melt or vaporize the impacting material, leaving behind only geochemical traces and tiny fragments.
However, Jay Melosh from Indiana's Purdue University and colleagues used computer simulations to show asteroids were capable of still producing these craters at lower impact speeds, giving them greater chance of survival.

"We find that for ... impact velocities below about 12 kilometres per second, the projectile may both survive the impact, and be swept back into the central peak of the final crater as it collapses," the authors write.
On Earth, spinel forms under high temperatures and pressures not seen near the moon's surface. It is also found in some asteroids and meteors.

Three possible deviations in favor of the survival of impactor minerals.

1) I would speculate that impactors will have a lower relative speed when impacting Mars, on average, because I expect the impactors to come from asteroid belts.

2) Mars has an atmosphere, which for smaller objects might help slow the impactor a bit before impact.

3) Mars has ice layers just under it's dust in a lot of areas.  The ice and dust should be soft, and also if there is to be vaporizing I would expect that ice would vaporize, sparing the impactor minerals.

So, I suppose one method of finding any such impactor remnants would be to look for proper sized craters where it is obvious ice exists.

For older impacts where the crater may have been erased, I suppose a wheeled robot sensing magnetic material would have to be used.

In the first case, though, then where a correct sized crater may reveal itself, mining may be worth the trouble.  Perhaps providing minerals not otherwise available.

Gotta go.  Maybe parts of this should go to Life Support later.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-05 08:09:52)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#3 2018-12-05 10:23:56

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

The speculations for what NEO's can only be answered by sending more probes to them. The science of our universes secrets are still being written. The knowledge gained will be much for its understanding and for its material resources that we can use as well journey away from Earth. These are important for man once he stops trying to send them from Earths gravity well.

We should be sending probes to the little moons of mars to do this same research and investigation into what they will and can be used for by man. Then finally to putting boots on there surfaces.

Man must find away to cooperate as we have with the ISS to make the world a better place and to be able to say that man can go; to live in peace amongst the planets, stars and all things in between.

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#4 2018-12-06 13:26:25

Void
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Quote the Spacenut:

The speculations for what NEO's can only be answered by sending more probes to them. The science of our universes secrets are still being written. The knowledge gained will be much for its understanding and for its material resources that we can use as well journey away from Earth. These are important for man once he stops trying to send them from Earths gravity well.
We should be sending probes to the little moons of mars to do this same research and investigation into what they will and can be used for by man. Then finally to putting boots on there surfaces.
Man must find away to cooperate as we have with the ISS to make the world a better place and to be able to say that man can go; to live in peace amongst the planets, stars and all things in between.

That is a very excellent set of observations with a very respectable sentiment.  I concur.

……

Now, what other than propellants can BFR/BFS/Super Heavy/Starship do?

I am wondering if we could get some probes to the moons of Mars and maybe to asteroids, in conjunction with the SpaceX primary mission to Mars?

The last published edition of BFS indicated a cargo ring around the engines.  Maybe this or some other hold could eject probes for these purposes somewhere in route to Mars.

Cubesats would be the lowest cost.  Already explored by Insight.  For those, perhaps they would have shelter almost to Mars, and then do a flyby of the moons of Mars, or maybe even an impact of Phobos and/or Demos.  Perhaps rather cheap but maybe low quality data.  But still data.

Ideally they could somehow just do their thing before the cargo Starship begins it's aeroburn.  I am being optimistic, but maybe something like that could even do a radar sounding of the moons, and then impact the moons, and the Starship would be able to monitor the results.

Just trying to go as cheap as possible, and to hope for some further hints.

…..

But more expensive versions may be speculated on, presumably with better data gathering.

If you toss such probes out of the Starship, then you lighten it up for it's landing.

Elon Musk seems to indicate that a new version is coming, based apparently by some materials breakthroughs.  I presume this means a greater performance capability, so maybe some Martian moons, and asteroid probes????


Ended

Last edited by Void (2018-12-06 13:36:42)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#5 2018-12-10 18:23:13

Void
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

So, they say it's parent body had water, as they seem to have found clay.
https://www.space.com/42690-asteroid-be … overy.html
Quote:

The agency's OSIRIS-REx probe, which just arrived at Bennu last week, has already found hydrated minerals on the 1,640-foot-wide (500 meters) near-Earth asteroid, mission team members announced today (Dec. 10).


The discovery suggests that liquid water was once plentiful in the interior of Bennu's parent body, which scientists think was a roughly 62-mile-wide (100 kilometers) rock in the main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. (Bennu is likely a pile of rubble that coalesced after a massive impact shattered that larger object hundreds of millions of years ago.) [OSIRIS-REx: NASA's Asteroid-Sampling Mission in Pictures]

But Bennu is thought to be a rubble pile.  Pieces of the parent body in a pile of rubble.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-10 18:26:09)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#6 2019-01-01 19:59:05

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Nasa did it again Osiris-REX enters close orbit around asteroid Bennu

Inching around the asteroid at a snail's pace, OSIRIS-REx's first orbit marks a leap for humankind. Never before has a spacecraft from Earth circled so close to such a small space object - one with barely enough gravity to keep a vehicle in a stable orbit.

Now, the spacecraft will circle Bennu about a mile (1.75 kilometers) from its center, closer than any other spacecraft has come to its celestial object of study. The comfortable distance is necessary to keep the spacecraft locked to Bennu, which has a gravity force only 5-millionths as strong as Earth's. The spacecraft is scheduled to orbit Bennu through mid-February at a leisurely 62 hours per orbit.

https://www.asteroidmission.org/

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#7 2020-05-24 19:28:27

SpaceNut
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#8 2020-09-12 10:03:48

tahanson43206
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Here's an update on the NASA probe at Bennu

Activity in the rubble pile was not expected, but the cameras on board were able to observe what turns out to be quite a bit of activity as small objects are ejected from the surface into nearby space.  Those particles turned out to be helpful for gravity science, because their trajectory could be tracked.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/11/world/as … index.html

(th)

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#9 2020-09-12 10:50:52

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

It also shows the power of the suns solar wind on things that are orbiting within its influence....

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#10 2020-09-24 19:57:40

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

After a four-year journey US probe to touch down on asteroid Bennu on October 20

BB19oEj3.img?h=726&w=768&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

"Years of planning and hard work by this team are essentially coming down to putting the TAGSAM (Touch-And-Go Sample Acquisition Mechanism) into contact with the surface for just five to 10 seconds," 

NASA has chosen a site called Nightingale, a rocky area 52 feet (16 meters) in diameter, for the spacecraft's robotic arm to attempt to collect a sample, because it holds the greatest amount of unobstructed fine-grained material.

OSIRIS-REx is supposed to collect at least 2 ounces (57 grams) of Bennu's rocky material to bring back to Earth

approximately 207 million miles (334 million kilometers) from Earth, it will take about 18.5 minutes for signals to travel between them.

It will deliver its payload to Earth on September 24, 2023

Hopefully it will not crash land on earth as the genesis or stardust capsule did...

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#11 2020-10-21 09:13:59

tahanson43206
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Here's an update on the capture attempt at Bennu ...  apparently the automated maneuver proceeded as planned, but it is still not known if anything was collected.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/world/na … index.html

One line in the report caught my attention ... Bennu is expected to pass close to Earth in 2023.  I'd like to see a full steam (all out) effort to wrap the asteroid in Calliban's Spider web, and pull it into orbit around the Moon, for use as a source of useful material for space projects.

(th)

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#12 2020-10-21 14:54:54

GW Johnson
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

I saw another report on the TV news that used a piece of video where one of the investigators said they were surprised by the gravel/boulders nature of this rubble-pile asteroid.  They had expected something closer to beach sand with some gravel. Just goes to show how ground truth is so very often quite different from remote observations,  even today.

Apparently,  the carbon-rich minerals react to space weathering a bit differently that silicate minerals and metal-oxide ore minerals.  That sticking-together effect of the carbonaceous stuff is probably why there are no fines.  It means there could be some cohesion to the thin crust exposed to space,  but probably less so for the chunks bound together by vanishingly-weak gravity inside. 

What that ultimately means is that if you exert forces on this asteroid that are not truly body forces,  it will fly apart at a rather low force loading.  Even if you contained the thing inside a giant bag,  once you move the bag,  the asteroid inside falls apart into individual rocks and boulders,  and the loose pile takes the shape of the bag. 

If your bag is porous in any way,  the debris escapes through the porosity.  You capture nothing.  Or not much,  just the ones bigger than your porosity size.

BTW,  gravity and EM are body forces.  Mechanical applied loads (including pressure of a gas or a fluid) are not.

Physics and chemistry are a bitch,  ain't they?

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#13 2020-10-21 18:29:54

tahanson43206
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

For GW Johnson re #12

Thank you for your thoughtful comment on the Bennu probe ...

I was particularly happy to see your thoughts about the possibility of collecting the asteroid (or any similar asteroid).

I was reminded of discussion of using Calliban's Spider to weave a web around an asteroid, before pulling it is some desired direction.

Calliban had opened his series of posts about asteroids with a vision of an actual bag, transported from Earth, and deployed around a target asteroid.

I am hoping Calliban will "hear" his name being referenced in the forum, and come back to address the issues you have identified as possible problems.

(th)

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#14 2020-10-21 19:20:05

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

It looks like they were able to land for the sample to be collected.....

OSIRIS-REx survived its touchdown on asteroid Bennu—now we wait to see if it got a sample

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#15 2020-10-22 09:26:09

GW Johnson
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

The initial press releases say the team thinks they got a sample,  but they said so with a lot of weasel words to cover their behinds if they didn't.  So the real answer is they probably got something,  but there's no certainty to that,  not yet. 

They have to spin the spacecraft with the arm extended,  to centrifuge the sample container.  If it acts heavier than an empty container,  the difference is the mass of the sample they collected.  They haven't had a chance to do that yet. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#16 2020-10-24 09:54:57

GW Johnson
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Update:  latest press releases indicate they filled the sample container enough to jam its lid from closing properly.  No need to centrifuge,  they got "a lot". 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#17 2020-10-24 11:42:42

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Hopefully it will close so as to not need to separate it from contamination once it gets back to earth to finally examine and make thousands of test on as for how the universe developed….

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#18 2020-10-24 13:36:43

GW Johnson
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Some of the stuff I saw says they will transfer the sample material to a separate return container,  which is what/how it comes home. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#19 2020-10-24 18:35:18

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Bennu Sample Return

Orbital period: 438 days
Radius: 0.20 miles
Asteroid group: Apollo asteroid

Nasa Osiris-Rex spacecraft lands on asteroid Bennu samples will not return to Earth until 2023

When it lands in the desert, it will be the first ever sub-surface asteroid sample to return to Earth. Scientists want between 2 ounces (60 grams) and 4 pounds (2 kg) of the crumbly, carbon-rich black Benno that is believed to contain the building blocks of our solar system.

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#20 2020-10-31 08:53:17

GW Johnson
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Hard to tell from the news releases,  but it looks like they got "a lot" and packed it away into the return capsule.  They didn't centrifuge,  which risked losing more.  So they don't know exactly how much,  but their best guess is something between 2 and 4 pounds.  Which is lot.  So,  they "done good" in my estimation.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#21 2020-10-31 18:43:00

RobertDyck
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Woo hoo! This is they type of asteroid the might have ice. Although my understanding is an asteroid this close to the Sun would have to be a lot larger to still have ice.

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#22 2020-11-08 08:51:16

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Other science Identified by the landing The asteroid NASA just landed on turns out to be hollow, with a large 'void' at its center. It may be spinning itself to death.

The probe has been orbiting Bennu for two years.

Now its data shows that Bennu is hollow.

The space rock is spinning rapidly, pushing its material out toward its surface. It could eventually spin itself to pieces.

Bennu completes one rotation every four hours, and it's only getting faster.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/41/eabc3350

Centripetal centrifugal forces, much like the effects we would see on a large ship where we are trying to produce gravity.

This means its ideal for the cocoon process for creation of a hollow body space habitat and mining operations....

Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

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#23 2020-11-08 09:08:07

tahanson43206
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

Here is another update on analysis of data collected from Bennu .... the article at the link below reports on a surprising result ... the interior appears to be hollow.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/asteroid-nas … 00182.html


Since gravity comes from mass, these two sets of data allowed Scheeres' team to calculate how material is distributed through the inside of the asteroid.

Their findings, published in the journal Science Advances on October 8 (before Osiris-Rex's brief landing), show that it's far from even. The force of the Bennu' spinning seems to be pushing its material outward towards the surface. Some of the thinnest parts of the asteroid are at its bulging equator.

Bennu completes one rotation every four hours, and it's only getting faster.

I'd like to see a robust discussion of the possibility of harvesting that entire collection of rubble. 

The NASA probe "harvested" a small quantity of material, and a cost of X.

The "payoff" for collection of that small quantity is zero from a practical point of view, but it is (potentially) quite valuable from a scientific point of view.

However, there ** is ** another potential payoff ... if Quark's Friends are persuaded that the material can be turned into something useful in space, then the expenditures needed to harvest it may be worth making.

Edit#1: If the interior is already hollow, then it could serve as an admirable location for a safety zone in case of a radiation threat.

The exterior could be wrapped in a web of basalt thread, as discussed elsewhere in the forum.

Once the exterior is secured, the entire ball of rubble could be de-rotated, using solar energy acting against panels on the Sun-approaching side.

It would take a while, but the Universe has ** lots ** of time.

(th)

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#24 2020-11-08 18:32:02

SpaceNut
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

So where is it now
outbound-cruise.png

3-computingpat.jpg

It gets pulled and pushed by not only Earth but Venus and Mars as it goes around the sun along its orbital path.

The YORP Effect and Bennu

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#25 2020-11-08 20:24:07

tahanson43206
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Re: NASA's OSIRIS-REx probe to space rock Bennu

For SpaceNut re #24

Thanks for the link to the Planetary Society article on YORP!

Dante Lauretta
OSIRIS-REx Principal Investigator for University of Arizona
Read more articles by Dante Lauretta

The article appears to have been published before arrival of the probe at Bennu.  In that respect, I am guessing the results of the visit must have been of great interest to the investigating team!

The description of the YORP effect (and examples of asteroids spinning themselves to oblivion) seems (as I read it) to be consistent with recent news of a hollow center of Bennu.

(th)

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