Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

Void · 2014-12-17 11:35:40

I feel that there are many reasons, to at least imagine how Mount Sharp could be turned into a very large population city on Mars.

I have been pondering this for a while, and to me the advantages just keep piling up.

First of all we have a probe there which may find significant "Ground Truth" about the place. (For GWJohnson)

It is near the Equator, so fluctuations seasonally are muted, and with the exception of dust storms, solar flux is predictable without large seasonal gaps, and of course the temperatures are about the best for Mars.

It appears to be made of layers of sedimentary rock, deposited by Rivers, Lakes, and Wind/Damp.

Some of these layers could be suitable for carving habitats into, that is, they may be suitable sandstone.

Some layers may have been deposited under neutral PH water conditions, and further up, perhaps some may be deposited under acid water conditions. So, it might be possible that the "Blue Berries" that one of our members champions for Iron/Steel making may be present in one or more layers.

The lower layer sandstone may be glued by clay. This could be important because clay and porous objects absorb water vapor. So, it may be that some carved chambers could be used to extract water vapor. Without applying Vacuum (An Option), but by heating the interior, the Relative Humidity of the air inside will try to maintain equilibrium with the hydration of the sandstone. For every 20 degF that the air is heated above ambient (Sandstone) the humidity carrying capacity of the heated air doubles (I think). So you don't have to look to hard to see where I am going with this. Mount Sharp at least in portions may be an enormous humidity trap. Means to extract water from it are as stated before, and could be supplemented by adding a negative electrical charge to the interior of the collection "Cave".

As for energy. Solar would be assisted by the tilt of the Mountain. Less structure needed since portions of the mountain are at a proper slant, and orientation to the sun. Atmospheric power. If the O2 and CO of the atmosphere can be utilized in some way then that is certainly available on Mt. Sharp as well.

As for Green Houses. I would consider an open rectangular cut into the face of the mountain, and a curved glaze where the concave side points outside, and the convex side is on the inside.

Mushroom Houses: If you have a ledge, then you can carve a tunnel from the main cave habitats to the center of one of GW's Mushroom Houses.

Other greenhouses. Could also be connected through their floors in the same way with a network of tunnels and caves created within Mt. Sharp.

So, I support this now because it greatly reduces materials required for construction, but is rather flexible.

And it has a Plenum or Common Plain. This is something like a ground plain in an electrical circuit. Each structure has connection to this common, but can also deviate or be unique for a purpose.

The location is also favored because in the event the planet is terraformed, then snow pack might appear on the top of the mountain, and then snow melts would provide a additional water supply, maybe even a lake again.

louis · 2014-12-17 14:53:29

Void wrote:

I feel that there are many reasons, to at least imagine how Mount Sharp could be turned into a very large population city on Mars.
I have been pondering this for a while, and to me the advantages just keep piling up.
First of all we have a probe there which may find significant "Ground Truth" about the place. (For GWJohnson)
It is near the Equator, so fluctuations seasonally are muted, and with the exception of dust storms, solar flux is predictable without large seasonal gaps, and of course the temperatures are about the best for Mars.
It appears to be made of layers of sedimentary rock, deposited by Rivers, Lakes, and Wind/Damp.
Some of these layers could be suitable for carving habitats into, that is, they may be suitable sandstone.
Some layers may have been deposited under neutral PH water conditions, and further up, perhaps some may be deposited under acid water conditions. So, it might be possible that the "Blue Berries" that one of our members champions for Iron/Steel making may be present in one or more layers.
The lower layer sandstone may be glued by clay. This could be important because clay and porous objects absorb water vapor. So, it may be that some carved chambers could be used to extract water vapor. Without applying Vacuum (An Option), but by heating the interior, the Relative Humidity of the air inside will try to maintain equilibrium with the hydration of the sandstone. For every 20 degF that the air is heated above ambient (Sandstone) the humidity carrying capacity of the heated air doubles (I think). So you don't have to look to hard to see where I am going with this. Mount Sharp at least in portions may be an enormous humidity trap. Means to extract water from it are as stated before, and could be supplemented by adding a negative electrical charge to the interior of the collection "Cave".
As for energy. Solar would be assisted by the tilt of the Mountain. Less structure needed since portions of the mountain are at a proper slant, and orientation to the sun. Atmospheric power. If the O2 and CO of the atmosphere can be utilized in some way then that is certainly available on Mt. Sharp as well.
As for Green Houses. I would consider an open rectangular cut into the face of the mountain, and a curved glaze where the concave side points outside, and the convex side is on the inside.
Mushroom Houses: If you have a ledge, then you can carve a tunnel from the main cave habitats to the center of one of GW's Mushroom Houses.
Other greenhouses. Could also be connected through their floors in the same way with a network of tunnels and caves created within Mt. Sharp.
So, I support this now because it greatly reduces materials required for construction, but is rather flexible.
And it has a Plenum or Common Plain. This is something like a ground plain in an electrical circuit. Each structure has connection to this common, but can also deviate or be unique for a purpose.
The location is also favored because in the event the planet is terraformed, then snow pack might appear on the top of the mountain, and then snow melts would provide a additional water supply, maybe even a lake again.

I would agree this is a good candidate for a settlement and I like most of your suggestions.

SpaceNut · 2014-12-17 17:44:05

I am reminded of a few topics that are Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars

There was another surface habitat but it seems to be gone....

Void · 2014-12-17 17:59:32

That's funny, we are both implicated.

I do think sandstone is a very good option though, particularly if the site takes care of other requirements, and reduces hazards (Seasonal cold, carbon dioxide snow loads, and so on).

One other factor I did not yet include is that if it is true that fusion energy were to appear, this would be just the place for it I think.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/produc … usion.html

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/53 … n-machine/

I really am an easy sucker for flash news some times, but lockheed martin being the source apparently, I might be forgiven for being hopeful.

http://www.realclearscience.com/2012/12 … 50332.html

Samples from a small mound of dust on Mars contain five times as much ‘heavy water’, than you would find in a similar sample on Earth.
The dust was analysed by the three soil experiments on board NASA’s latest rover on the planet, Curiosity.

So really, if you had a sandstone city, and atmospheric gasses, and had solved the problem of a water supply, .....and had fusion power on Mars where heavy water must be easier to get than on Earth.

Then you almost could live inside the mountain with artificial lights until the planet was suitably terraformed to have a biosphere. Of course why would you ignor other sources of energy though.

Last edited by Void (2014-12-17 18:07:16)

louis · 2014-12-17 18:58:09

I would draw a distinction between early settlement and later settlement.

In the early missions, digging out caves in sandstone would be a distraction in my view. Easier to import habs or use cut and cover to create hab space using ISRU.

However, as population grows, digging into caves may make more sense in that, with supports, you can probably create quite large structures.

Void · 2014-12-17 19:47:31

We may be quite close.

I agree, first imported materials, and easily created materials on the surface.

But then if a good layer of sandstone exists somewhere, and the means to carve it. I would think that would be the place to hang out while the planet was being terraformed.

Small caves in very good sandstone seem to be possible I think according to this.

http://www.boredpanda.com/cave-carving- … ew-mexico/

But then yes, large ones with the supports that you have suggested.

Although human population might not be restricted to one static site, I think that if the resources for greenhouse gas terraforming were at hand in a sandstone complex, that would be a great place to spend decades while the required gasses were put into the atmosphere, and while they were doing their work.

louis · 2014-12-18 13:08:36

Are there likely to be salt deposits on Mars? Salt caves on Earth can be huge:

http://therockspa.com/Halotherapy-History

RobertDyck · 2014-12-18 13:47:46

Salt deposits: Probably near dried-up bodies of water, such as shores of the dried-up ocean basin. And what was the deepest part of the ocean; as it dried up the salt water would flow there before finally evaporating. But that implies little chance for water flow through salt deposits.

Earth has plate tectonics, so everything is constantly moving. Mars never did have plate tectonics. The islands of Hawaii formed by volcanic eruption from a hot-spot in the mantle. As the tectonic plate moved the island off the hot-spot, the volcano stopped erupting. Then a new volcano would form over the hot-spot, creating a new island. Then ocean waves slowly erode old islands. But this never happened on Mars. Volcanoes at Tharsis just built up to huge size. And Tharsis is on the opposite side from Hellas Basin, probably the shock wave from the asteroid impact that created Hellas caused the volcanoes of Tharsis. All this means no salt deposits that can later be dissolved to form caves. No process to build up then tear down.

We don't know if limestone deposits formed. On Earth, igneous rock eroded by flowing water into clay. Alkali metals dissolved from that rock washed into the oceans: sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium. Early Earth had a thick CO2 atmosphere, so a lot of CO2 dissolved into the ocean creating carbonic acid. That's a weak acid, but dissolved carbonic will combine with calcium to form calcite, or with magnesium and calcium to form dolomite. Those two minerals precipitate out of solution, forming limestone. Today Earth doesn't have a CO2 atmosphere, so this process doesn't happen any more. Today coral and other life forms make calcium based skeletons, which accumulate to form coral reefs. But bulk limestone was formed by early Earth through this non-biologic process. We find calcite and dolomite in Mars soil. It's part of the dust, they haven't found limestone deposits; at least not yet. I'm sure the chemical process was the same, the question was whether these minerals were formed in rivers and streams, or Mars ancient ocean. Could there be limestone deposits at the bottom of the ancient ocean?

Limestone caves: there wasn't much time for one of these to form. When the ocean started drying up, it's possible a part of limestone left on land could have had water percolate through to the lowered ocean. But that wasn't much time. Look at the ancient shore line, but there may be no limestone caves. We haven't even found bulk limestone yet.

But orbiters have discovered lava tubes. These form when a lava river flows down a volcano hillside. Cooling lava forms a solid crust, which acts as insulation so remaining lava underneath stays hot longer. This forms a tube of molten lava. When the volcano stops, the honey-like lava flows down hill, emptying the lava tube. Some lava will solidify on the tube floor. We have lava tubes on Earth, but for some reason lava tubes on Mars are larger.

Wikipedia: Martian lava tube

111230-mars-lava-tube-hmed-142p.grid-6x2.jpg

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-12-20 13:59:07)

Void · 2014-12-18 14:01:12

Actually;

http://oilonmars.blogspot.com/

Nobody is confessing to an oil slick on Mars. (That would mean abiotic oil, which is a social no! no!)

However it has been discovered recently that the Moon has 100 times as much water in it's rock as it was supposed, and that Mars indeed had lots of water at it's formation which did not boil off (Same for Earth and Venus, but perhaps Venus has expelled a great deal by now).

The point is serpentinization which I believe releases Hydrogen which being the smallest molecule, works it's way up and finds Carbon, and combines with it to make Methane. That then collects in salt domes, and eventually Hydrogen escapes from it and percolates out of the Salt dome leaving behind some Methane and heavier "evolved" hydrocarbons. (So that theory goes). But really.......... I don't believe in abiotic oil, I must not. It is forbidden, even though the Russians drill in granite and find oil 300 oil wells of that kind, and also they found similar oil in Viet Nam. But I don't believe in it.

Oil on Mars would be less apparent than on Earth because dust would cover it, in most cases, and because the ground being so cold, it really is not likely to flow to the surface very often.

I deny that there could be oil on Mars!

Anyway back to salt domes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mining

But you cause me to rant

Anyway Sandstone, Lava Tubes, Salt Domes. Pretty much similar hopes. Lava Tubes already exist, and are not as easy to modify.

But I just thought that since Curiosity may be able to examine the layers, maybe sandstone can be considered.

I did imply that I thought that a city should be built in one place only, and the people hide in it until Mars is sufficiently terraformed, but there is no reason after establishing one city that humans would not make more in other formations. And of course to get some resources and explore, they are not going to "Hide", but it would be really good to have one or more very large expandable relative safe zones where significant populations could engage in materially productive activities to support the surface efforts.

Last edited by Void (2014-12-18 14:41:01)

louis · 2014-12-19 14:57:13

"but for some reason lava tubes on Mars are larger". Gravity??

I am always slightly distrustful of lava tubes...don't they end up with a lot of jagged edges? That just feels counterintuitive for human missions where safety is a prime concern.

RobertDyck wrote:

Salt deposits: Probably near dried-up bodies of water, such as shores of the dried-up ocean basin. And what was the deepest part of the ocean; as it dried up the salt water would flow there before finally evaporating. But that implies little chance for water flow through salt deposits.
Earth has plate tectonics, so everything is constantly moving. Mars never did have plate tectonics. The islands of Hawaii formed by volcanic eruption from a hot-spot in the mantle. As the tectonic plate moved the island off the hot-spot, the volcano stopped erupting. Then a new volcano would form over the hot-spot, creating a new island. Then ocean waves slowly eroded erode old islands. But this never happened on Mars. Volcanoes at Tharsis just built up to huge size. And Tharsis is on the opposite side from Hellas Basin, probably the shock wave from the asteroid impact that created Hellas caused the volcanoes of Tharsis. All this means no salt deposits that can later be dissolved to form caves. No process to build up then tear down.
We don't know if limestone deposits formed. On Earth, igneous rock eroded by lowing water into clay. Alkali metals dissolved from that rock washed into the oceans: sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium. Early Earth had a thick CO2 atmosphere, so a lot of CO2 dissolved into the ocean creating carbonic acid. That's a weak acid, but dissolved carbonic will combine with calcium to form calcite, or with magnesium and calcium to form dolomite. Those two minerals precipitate out of solution, forming limestone. Today Earth doesn't have a CO2 atmosphere, so this process doesn't happen any more. Today coral other life forms make calcium based skeletons, which accumulate to form coral reefs. But bulk limestone was formed by early Earth through this non-biologic process. We find calcite and dolomite in Mars soil. It's part of the dust, they haven't found limestone deposits; at least not yet. I'm sure the chemical process was the same, the question was whether these minerals were formed in rivers and streams, or Mars ancient ocean. Could there be limestone deposits at the bottom of the ancient ocean?
Limestone caves: there wasn't much time for one of these to form. When the ocean started drying up, it's possible a part of limestone left on land could have had water percolate through to the lowered ocean. But that wasn't much time. Look at the ancient shore line, but there may be no limestone caves. We haven't even found bulk limestone yet.
But orbiters have discovered lava tubes. These form when a lava river flows down a volcano hillside. Cooling lava forms a solid crust, which acts as insulation so remaining lava underneath stays hot longer. This forms a tube of molten lava. When the volcano stops, the honey-like lava flows down hill, emptying the lava tube. Some lava will solidify on the tube floor. We have lava tubes on Earth, but for some reason lava tubes on Mars are larger.
Wikipedia: Martian lava tube
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … a_tube.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … t_crop.jpg
http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Com … id-6x2.jpg
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images … -1_650.jpg

louis · 2014-12-20 05:59:17

I don't think power is really an issue for any size of settlement we can imagine developing in the first 100 years. There is plenty of free open land on which to site PV panelling. And PV power can be used to make methane using ISRU. Certainly it wouldn't be a problem for any community up to around 100,000 - which I think of as the population target for creating a fully self-sufficient off-Earth human civilisation.

With PV power, 3D printers and ISRU, we can achieve self-sufficiency.

Void wrote:

That's funny, we are both implicated.
I do think sandstone is a very good option though, particularly if the site takes care of other requirements, and reduces hazards (Seasonal cold, carbon dioxide snow loads, and so on).
One other factor I did not yet include is that if it is true that fusion energy were to appear, this would be just the place for it I think.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/produc … usion.html
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/53 … n-machine/
I really am an easy sucker for flash news some times, but lockheed martin being the source apparently, I might be forgiven for being hopeful.

http://www.realclearscience.com/2012/12 … 50332.html
Samples from a small mound of dust on Mars contain five times as much ‘heavy water’, than you would find in a similar sample on Earth.
The dust was analysed by the three soil experiments on board NASA’s latest rover on the planet, Curiosity.
So really, if you had a sandstone city, and atmospheric gasses, and had solved the problem of a water supply, .....and had fusion power on Mars where heavy water must be easier to get than on Earth.
Then you almost could live inside the mountain with artificial lights until the planet was suitably terraformed to have a biosphere. Of course why would you ignor other sources of energy though.

Void · 2014-12-20 10:04:58

But I think there is no reason to close off other options at this point. Granted solar cells are the most proven option for Mars, but it will be some time before the first "BackPackers" go to Mars. When they do, I think it is very likely they will have solar cells or fission nuclear in their backpacks.

However, when they are in the forest, they may come upon options which could prove valuable. I think it is too soon to pour concrete on this. Measure twice, cut once.

Having specialized thinking is good to create a focus, but if that focus is off center for best options, then much might be lost.

I am most interested in contrasting options.

1) Lava Tubes
2) Sandstone
3) Salt Domes
4) Create structures manufactured (Although they have to be buried if they are for human habitation).

And then there is another option.

5) http://phys.org/news/2014-12-thermoelec … wable.html

For the adaptation, I resort to reservoirs of water. Although it will not be possible to completely eliminate salt, salt is hostile to manufactured items in most cases, so I propose
reservoirs of mostly fresh water where the typical top layer is ice, and above that a protective cover, perhaps soil/rock. Below that cold water perhaps 0 degC. In that containment, tanks of hot water with the energy producing ability of the article cited. To keep the cold layer and the hot tanks fluid, then solar concentrating mirrors, to create steam.

But this is a late development method, and will be most suited to high latitudes. So, first the backpackers (Which most of you are), and then targets of opportunity, then perhaps mastery of the planet (Maybe).

It is too early to exactly specify, in my opinion.

Fusion is likely the golden hope. If and when ever happening, then it opens two worlds that offer some mercy.

It is silly for us to pretend that we do not rely on Earth's kind nature to give us most of what we have. And to get that we butcher it without mercy. The hope is to become more that a screaming child, a brat that demands things. It is possible, but not assured that our blood lines will achieve respect.

So, sure, solar cells have merit, but what about Titan, and the beyond? No solar to speak of there. We are too soon to plan for what may be in 15 or 30 years. I will be well forgotten then, if not sooner.

Please note that I altered Fission to Fusion for the golden hope. Weekends make me only worse for coherance Whatever.

I just think you need to be careful to not be myopic before you have considered the whole long scale progression potentials.

Last edited by Void (2014-12-20 13:48:31)

Void · 2014-12-20 17:40:20

Louis,

I want to make sure that I did not intend the "Screaming Child" thing to indicate you or any of your associates. I am really thinking of the human race as a whole, and much less people like you.

Please don't take insult.

SpaceNut · 2014-12-21 11:46:34

Lets not forget clift dwelling or carving into a hillside. Also with fussion there is Hot and Cold types as ilustrated with the E-Cat and LERN which are soon to be had....

SpaceNut · 2014-12-21 19:46:42

With Sandstone comes The cave digger, Ra Paulette: Hewing art from the very landscape

One small opening pales in comparison to the cavern he's dug inside. It took close to 900 hours to dig.
The sense of being underground with light streaming in, the intimacy of being in a cave, yet the columns end up very large, sometimes 30, 40 feet high.
http://www.racavedigger.com/racavedigge … _Home.html

louis · 2014-12-21 19:54:33

Void wrote:

Louis,
I want to make sure that I did not intend the "Screaming Child" thing to indicate you or any of your associates. I am really thinking of the human race as a whole, and much less people like you.
Please don't take insult.

No problem - but Titan can wait. Let's focus on Mars for a few decades. It would be an incredible achievement to have a basically, or potentially, self-sufficient civilisation established on another planet.

louis · 2014-12-21 19:57:35

SpaceNut wrote:

With Sandstone comes The cave digger, Ra Paulette: Hewing art from the very landscape
One small opening pales in comparison to the cavern he's dug inside. It took close to 900 hours to dig.
http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/ … es-003.jpg
The sense of being underground with light streaming in, the intimacy of being in a cave, yet the columns end up very large, sometimes 30, 40 feet high.
http://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/ … ave-01.jpg
http://www.racavedigger.com/racavedigge … _Home.html

Very nice!

This is one of the ways we could generate money for the Mars community. There are many super-rich artists on planet Earth - they would pay many millions to be the first to display works of art on Mars. So, take with you a robot "sculptor" that can carve out the sandstone according to a computer-control programme sent by the artist from Earth.

I would suggest that would be a brilliant start for a new Mars community, to create a sandstone art gallery - in time it would become a huge tourist attraction on Mars.

Last edited by louis (2014-12-21 19:58:25)

Void · 2014-12-23 12:25:31

Interesting idea, incorporating artists.

If there were enough room, perhaps data elsewhere. Primitive, but durable, possibly slow to degrade.

And then if you are going to hollow out sandstone, perhaps some of the material could be captured as sandstone blocks. Those could be used to support solar panels, pave roads, and make Roman Arch buildings outside? Maybe it could even be some of the materials to build a GW Johnson Mushroom Building?

Here are some references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone#Cement

https://www.google.com/images?q=manufac … d=0CBQQsAQ

http://www.ehow.com/how_8473339_cut-san … locks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_sandstone

http://www.kls-sandstone.com.au/cutting.htm

And;

Utensils
https://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=S … d=0CBYQsAQ

Abrasives:
https://www.google.com/images?q=Sandsto … &oq=&gs_l=

Nife Sharpeners:
https://www.google.com/images?q=Sandsto … &oq=&gs_l=

Last edited by Void (2014-12-23 12:40:58)

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#1 2014-12-17 11:35:40

Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#2 2014-12-17 14:53:29

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#3 2014-12-17 17:44:05

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#4 2014-12-17 17:59:32

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#5 2014-12-17 18:58:09

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#6 2014-12-17 19:47:31

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#7 2014-12-18 13:08:36

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#8 2014-12-18 13:47:46

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#9 2014-12-18 14:01:12

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#10 2014-12-19 14:57:13

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#11 2014-12-20 05:59:17

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#12 2014-12-20 10:04:58

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#13 2014-12-20 17:40:20

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#14 2014-12-21 11:46:34

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#15 2014-12-21 19:46:42

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#16 2014-12-21 19:54:33

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#17 2014-12-21 19:57:35

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

#18 2014-12-23 12:25:31

Re: Turning structures like Mount Sharp into Martian Cities.

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