Morbid Stuff

Palomar · 2005-01-25 07:41:52

http://www.livescience.com/history/huma … html]Human sacrifice & the God of Death

*Yeah, I know stuff like this wasn't/isn't limited to any one culture or race of peoples. One major point I don't understand was the "need" to torture. Why make the victim suffer? If it's a death sacrifice, get it overwith already. :-\

The Inquisition tortured people before killing them, but supposedly that was to "extract a confession." Sort of like the "confession" that if you screamed while reaching for a rock at the bottom of a deep pot of boiling water, that "proved" your guilt.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-25 08:29:14

Not too long ago I was watching a documentary on Aztec and Maya human sacrifice practices involving among other aspects an investigation of the mechanics of it. would it be possible to cut the sternum with available tools and remove the heart without excessive sawing or is it more likely they went in under the ribcage, that sort of thing. They went so far as to construct a realistic human "body" on which several approaches were tried, illustrating the problems of each.

As I recall "under the ribcage" seemed the most practical.

An odd practice regardless, whatever reasons were behind it.

Palomar · 2005-01-25 11:04:38

*I just wonder what drives humans to do these sorts of things to begin with. There seems to be some religious component to it, and I'm far from being an anthropologist but I think it'd be a mistake to read a lot of religious motivation into it. Similar atrocities have been committed in the name of "The State" (secular): The Nazis, Stalin. Of course there were the witch hunts of 1400 - 1700's Europe (some of which slipped over into the American Colonies).

They note most (or many) victims were children, and perhaps chosen because they were "more pure"/innocent. Yes, and also (besides the elderly) weak and defenseless. It's always the most vulnerable who get targeted.

If it's -not- mostly out of some gruesome sadistic "enjoyment" and for mere "sport," what else is the motivating factor? Why the need to torture, to inflict protracted suffering, to find various means of putting the sacrificial victims to death? Just put them to death quickly; death is death. Blood lust, power-over, and the old "do it just because I/we can"....

The cut-throats in power say "it must be done," and the sheeple go along with it. :-\

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-25 12:45:49

*I just wonder what drives humans to do these sorts of things to begin with. There seems to be some religious component to it, and I'm far from being an anthropologist but I think it'd be a mistake to read a lot of religious motivation into it. Similar atrocities have been committed in the name of "The State" (secular): The Nazis, Stalin.

Given the situation of the Aztecs and Mayans I can't really see anything other than a religious motive. If you really believe that angry gods will lay a whuppin' on your city unless you appease them it could seem reasonable to sacrfice a few people now and then. It doesn't seem a very good method of population control and to my knowledge there's no indication that it was a punishment for anything, quite the contrary in fact. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd do for mundane reasons, unlike Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which killed on a grand scale for the singular purpose of disposing of people they didn't want around.

If it's -not- mostly out of some gruesome sadistic "enjoyment" and for mere "sport," what else is the motivating factor? Why the need to torture, to inflict protracted suffering, to find various means of putting the sacrificial victims to death?

Maybe the suffering was an integral part of the sacrifice, the very thing that the supposed gods seek? Sadistic gods aren't exactly an alien concept to the Western mind.

Without understanding the finer points of their religious framework we can't properly comprehend it, but somehow I suspect that a brutal and painful sacrifice was believed to "release" something differently than if that same person died of poison, for example.

But then I'd have been rooting for the Spaniards regardless.

John Creighton · 2005-01-25 13:08:24

*I just wonder what drives humans to do these sorts of things to begin with.

Hmm…psychological reasons? Is it much different then sending people to war? Perhaps the human sacrifice is some sociological extension of a survival instinct. A mother fights a bear so her child can escape or something. As a social species from an evolutionary perspective we gain a survival advantage but putting the success of the heard over the success of an individual member. Kind of like and ant colony which. By the way the ant colony metaphor was popular pre NAZI Germany.

Palomar · 2005-01-25 13:22:32

*I just wonder what drives humans to do these sorts of things to begin with. There seems to be some religious component to it, and I'm far from being an anthropologist but I think it'd be a mistake to read a lot of religious motivation into it. Similar atrocities have been committed in the name of "The State" (secular): The Nazis, Stalin.
Given the situation of the Aztecs and Mayans I can't really see anything other than a religious motive. If you really believe that angry gods will lay a whuppin' on your city unless you appease them it could seem reasonable to sacrfice a few people now and then. It doesn't seem a very good method of population control and to my knowledge there's no indication that it was a punishment for anything, quite the contrary in fact. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd do for mundane reasons, unlike Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia which killed on a grand scale for the singular purpose of disposing of people they didn't want around.
If it's -not- mostly out of some gruesome sadistic "enjoyment" and for mere "sport," what else is the motivating factor? Why the need to torture, to inflict protracted suffering, to find various means of putting the sacrificial victims to death?
Maybe the suffering was an integral part of the sacrifice, the very thing that the supposed gods seek? Sadistic gods aren't exactly an alien concept to the Western mind.
Without understanding the finer points of their religious framework we can't properly comprehend it, but somehow I suspect that a brutal and painful sacrifice was believed to "release" something differently than if that same person died of poison, for example.

*Yes, but there do seem to be parallels here. Whether it's Jim Jones' "Guyana Town" with him making children under duress eat their own vomit or ordering an elderly woman into a make-shift boxing ring to slug it out with a 22-year-old man, or vicious games Nazis would play with people in concentration camps (siccing dogs on defenseless people, nailing a man's scrotum to a board, crushing people's hands against walls with the butt of a rifle), or this...it just seems a lot of it is done for the sake of sadistic enjoyment or could rapidly devolve into that (regardless of what the original purpose was, i.e. "Let's appease the Lightning God"). People being thrown to wild animals during Rome's glory days, others sitting in the stadium watching them being ripped to shreds. Ugh.

It just seems to me like there's too many instances of being on the "wrong side" (usually determined very arbitrarily) of the social order -- and woe to you if the folks in control like watching others suffer.

The Inquisition had literally dozens of ways -- increasingly refined -- of torturing people. The persons doing it *enjoyed* it; they kept meticulous records, etc.

It's just chilling. Maybe the folks in the original article started out with purely religious intentions for whatever reason justified to their own minds...but given the more negative aspects of human behavior, I'm reluctant to give the benefit of the doubt that it didn't just eventually devolve into "entertainment."

As for perhaps a brutal and painful death "releasing" something; that could have been their justification for it. Attonement for "sins" -- not unlike a brutal death of someone else who comes to mind. :-\

Really, I do have a difficult time even acknowledging this sort of thing occurs -- in the psyche or in real life. But then I'm the person who had a bad day when I accidentally ran over a mouse years ago...(I also could not bring myself to chopping off that chicken's head, which my dad wanted me to do when I was around 10...; I felt very sorry for the chicken, could not do it)...

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-25 13:41:39

Maybe the folks in the original article started out with purely religious intentions for whatever reason justified to their own minds...but given the more negative aspects of human behavior, I'm reluctant to give the benefit of the doubt that it didn't just eventually devolve into "entertainment."

A valid viewpoint. But then I'm somewhat biased in the direction of all religion being a means of enrichment/entertainment for those acting in its name, even when they truly believe it.

Still, I'm of the opinion (totally unprovable of course) that the primary motivation was religious. Most likely there was also a sadistic entertainment element to it at least in some cases, you have to be a bit off to cut someone's chest open and rip out their heart to start with, but I suspect it was secondary. "Ooh, I get to serve the gods and kill somebody" rather than "Ooh, killing people! And we'll say some jibber-jabber about the gods and whatnot."

But it doesn't matter now, evil Europeans stole their land and tourists swarm across the temples with cameras while the descendants of their builders sell cheap crafts.

And I'm told by a credible source you can climb on some of the sculpture for pictures for the low bribe of ten American dollars. :;):

Ian Flint · 2005-01-25 15:37:15

Wow, Cobra, I actually agree with you again.

Since we're talking about religion and sadism, aren't nearly all gods sadistic to some extent.

The Judeo-Christian god makes you suffer in hell forever. And his priests have to be celibate.

The Buddhist and Hindu religion has several levels of hell with lots of hot irons and other torture devices involved.

Islam, Taoism, you name it they got a hell for you.

Nice job Rob S., you picked one without a hell -- Baha'i.

So basically, religion is hell. :laugh:

Palomar · 2005-01-25 15:47:55

John: By the way the ant colony metaphor was popular pre NAZI Germany.

*Yep, I've heard that. Apparently it's easier to kill people once they've been de-humanized. :-\

Cobra: rather than "Ooh, killing people! And we'll say some jibber-jabber about the gods and whatnot."

*You nearly made me giggle in spite of myself (and despite what we're discussing!!). :;): (There's something about Cobra Commander...)

Ian: Taoism, you name it they got a hell for you.

*It does?? ??? I've done quite a bit of reading about Taoism and I've seen no such negative references.

Actually I view religion as merely an extension (or extensions) of the human psyche. "Tell me what God/dess you worship/identify with and I'll tell you what you are" -or- "We create God in our own image."

--Cindy

Ian Flint · 2005-01-25 16:02:33

Actually I view religion as merely an extension (or extensions) of the human psyche. "Tell me what God/dess you worship/identify with and I'll tell you what you are" -or- "We create God in our own image."

Agreed, that's why gods are so darned sadistic. Jesus was a massochist for "heaven's" sake! Fasting for 40 days, allowing himself to be crucified, etc.

It does?? I've done quite a bit of reading about Taoism and I've seen no such negative references.

Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Taoism]wikipedia, "popular belief endows Taoist Hell with many deities and spirits who punish sin in a variety of horrible ways."

My understanding is that as humans evolve socially our religions evolve as well. I'm sure the Taoist hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Du]Feng Du) is from the old fundamental days. I haven't researched it much myself.

clark · 2005-01-26 06:49:30

As I recall, Judaism has no hell.

I always prefered the concept that hell is the total absence of God, not fire and brimstone.

As for me, I worship Loki. :laugh:

Gods aren't sadistic, they just practice tough love.

Palomar · 2005-01-26 07:09:34

*Hi Ian: Thanks for the links. I'll check it out more thoroughly. Am wondering if the Taoist hell was a natural development or if perhaps it was "tainted" by Middle-Eastern concepts of afterlife punishment (as has sometimes been the case; also, the ancient Sumerians IIRC -didn't- have a concept of hell; they simply believed the ghosts of the dead existed in some dreary, nebulous afterworld...no pain or suffering; some benign "limbo" apparently). Will do some additional reading on it.

Ian: My understanding is that as humans evolve socially our religions evolve as well.

Agreed.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-01-26 14:06:36

...I'm somewhat biased in the direction of all religion being a means of enrichment/entertainment for those acting in its name, even when they truly believe it.

Well, yeah! Of course, that's not the only reason to affiliate with a religion - there's charity and all kinds of social support from your fellow affiliates, too. However, IMHO, that's one of the big reasons people begin religious lives.

If you're not enjoying it, you're not doing it right.

Ian, you wrote:

The Judeo-Christian god makes you suffer in hell forever. And his priests have to be celibate.

A gross simplification, and simply not true. For every single point in that statement, I can think of some Judeo-Christian derived sect somewhere that takes exception to it, including the assertion that there is a God.

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-26 14:53:45

Well, yeah! Of course, that's not the only reason to affiliate with a religion - there's charity and all kinds of social support from your fellow affiliates, too. However, IMHO, that's one of the big reasons people begin religious lives.
If you're not enjoying it, you're not doing it right.

I suppose I can see your point here, and it kind of plays into what I was saying about the sacrifices. You get some people who believe in these gods, they want to serve the gods, plus they're high on the social ladder with all the benefits that entails.

So then when it comes time to kill some people, for the gods of course, some sickos in the priesthood will eagerly do so. So they're motivated originally by religious reasons, but a few (or most) no doubt came to relish the rituals for other reasons.

So in effect you have behavior that would normally be considered reprehensible instead being honored because it's carried out in the guise of religious duty.

Palomar · 2005-01-26 15:04:31

*Chalk up another one for the God of Death: :down:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … erail]Damn! 10 dead, 200 injured -- dozens *critically* injured.

I could have put this in Apropos of Nothing, but it doesn't seem to quite fit there (usually carefree, upbeat banter). And didn't want to create another thread.

This guy "changed his mind" and left the f*cking SUV on the tracks!!! I wonder just how truly mentally ill ("deranged") -- I mean in the clinical, certifiable sense -- he is, or whether he just didn't care. He didn't want to die, maybe he just hates life, so let someone else suffer?

If he had the presence of mind to not want to die and to leave the SUV, I can't believe he didn't also have the presence of mind to know that train loaded with people was on a collision course. :realllymad: :realllymad:

Guess we'll find out.

Why does he have a driver's license if he's so mentally ill? Was that his vehicle? If not, whose? Damn.

--Cindy

Ian Flint · 2005-01-26 19:22:43

Ian, you wrote:
The Judeo-Christian god makes you suffer in hell forever. And his priests have to be celibate.

A gross simplification, and simply not true. For every single point in that statement, I can think of some Judeo-Christian derived sect somewhere that takes exception to it, including the assertion that there is a God.

Of course, I should have said that the traditional or mainstream religions have sadistic gods. My other comment about social evolution explains the sects that have strayed from the traditional religions.

As I recall, Judaism has no hell.

Upon further research, I see you are correct, kinda. They are still 'purified' in a very unpleasant place -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Rabbi … ism]source.
But, I stand by my claim that the Judeo-Christian god is a sadistic pig. Just read a little bit of the Old Testament.

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