What if we Lose III? - The thread that wouldn't die

Mundaka · 2004-05-22 01:02:16

Rxke · 2004-05-22 02:34:40

"US: Iraq can decide in keeping troops" http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … iraq]Yahoo

Huh? They serious? Everybody knows the Iraqi's want the US out ASAP (most of them, anyway...)

EDIT: I mean: if they let them vote, the outcome is pretty predictable, no? This is *almost* saying "we're pulling out," but looking for a way to say: 'they decided,' to save face...

Rxke · 2004-05-22 02:47:44

Of course, things like http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3737863.stm]New torture pics appearing all the time, for everybody to see, might be considered a good reason to give in on some issues...

Man, those guys are sick...

Mundaka · 2004-05-22 06:14:01

Rxke · 2004-05-22 09:25:43

Yes, Mundaka...

I *do* believe 99,99% of the American people are *at least* as horrified as us (the non-American viewers in their lazy TV couch and more important: the Iraqi people and Islam world...)

It is *your* name that gets run through the mud, and you can't do a thing about it. Now the world cries 'torturers!' at you, and you know in your hearts you are not like that, not at all...
And I have to confess, every single time i see the more extreme pics, i grind my teeth, hissing: "****ing Americans!"

That is worriesome, because i do *not* see the American people, or even government(!) as plain evil, yet this reaction just 'is' there, every single time.
And I'm just a guy with a computer, totally out of the loop of things happening there, and so every time i regret thinking-hissing those words.

But what about the people that went through this? For them this humiliation is as bad as rape, we *might* try to wriggle with words, saying it is not that bad, but those people, I'm sure, would rather get beaten half to death than go through stuff like THAT. Proud people, just like you. You know you're proud people too. Think about that.
Imagine yourself in their situation, having to denounce *your* beliefs, go through all kinds of (for you) unimaginable humiliations...

I feel for you, good-meaning guys. Those sick idiots are there to represent you (THEY ARE!) and they're doing it totally WRONG. Very wrong, and some of them need serious punishment.
But heads higher up need to roll too, IMO. With apologies. Lots of apologies. With denouncements. Lots. This is clearly too organised to be 'coincidence.'

How to make the Iraqi's (and Arab culture) understand you do NOT condone this kind of stuff?

Meanwhile, GI's doing their tours of duty get shot at by rightfully mad people... Just because of said sick apples, and some sick guys in intelligence, too stupid to think things like this won't be reported.
Big heads. Now. For the pride of the Iraqis. For the pride of the American people. For the pride of Mankind, dammit!

Palomar · 2004-05-22 09:50:54

Yes, Mundaka...
I *do* believe 99,99% of the American people are *at least* as horrified as us (the non-American viewers in their lazy TV couch and more important: the Iraqi people and Islam world...)
It is *your* name that gets run through the mud, and you can't do a thing about it. Now the world cries 'torturers!' at you, and you know in your hearts you are not like that, not at all...
And I have to confess, every single time i see the more extreme pics, i grind my teeth, hissing: "****ing Americans!"
That is worriesome, because i do *not* see the American people, or even government(!) as plain evil, yet this reaction just 'is' there, every single time.
And I'm just a guy with a computer, totally out of the loop of things happening there, and so every time i regret thinking-hissing those words.

*I can understand your dilemma, Rik. Thing is, I've never felt more UNproud to be an American than right now.

I wonder why the Washington Post has taken it upon themselves to display all the pics and videos. I'm -not- saying they shouldn't have done it, btw. I am cynical enough, though, to wonder if the Washington Post *really* cares about the abuses at the prison, or if this is mere grandstanding on their part. The Washington Post was limping along with not much cachet until the early 1970s and the Watergate scandal and the two journalists who broke the story. I wonder if the WP isn't merely trying to regain some of their former glory...

What makes me sick are a few Americans going on TV who don't care or who say the prisoners deserved it and refer back to 9/11.

Another guy on the news last night (some big-shot in the military or political analyst, I can't recall which) was saying "We're going to get another 9/11, just wait and see."

I'm like, "Nah, REALLY?" Yeah, we sure are. There's going to be all kinds of fall-out from this scandal.

There's more I could say, but I should probably just shut up now. I'm fed up and pissed off with this circumstance.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-05-22 10:05:43

I think that -again- my English made me say things not too subtly...
the '****ing Americans' is kind of a 'general' reaction towards people like the ones in the pics, that mess things up big time... More a "what do they think they're doing? That's not the way to solve problems!" It is DISGUST (and real, tremor-causing disgust, i can assure you that, i get really upset. But the upset is *NOT* because I'm faint-hearted, it is upset because of the utter,utter STUPIDITY to do things like that. I see the people doing it in the pics, and my overall reaction is 'brainless morons, how did you ever pass *any* test, let alone get enlisted?' And of course disgust, because they're mean people, probably thinking they at last get a chance to really bully (and worse) other human beings, and get away with it.

Being a soldier is not a game. Good friend of mine, professional paratrooper, loves to recall how all the stupid macho-guys never made it in the second round of selection, you need at least a minimumm of brains to be a soldier. It's not animals fighting eachother. At least i thought that was the idea.

(ummm... going on a rant again...)

What I mean: if our government/army would pull tricks like that, i'd say ****ing Belgians as vehemently as i do now towards those dipwits in the pics. God knows i did, repeatedly. We've done some pretty horrific stuff in Africa, ourselves, and not all of that reached the headlines...

Rxke · 2004-05-22 10:12:22

What would you do, as a paper, when given those pics? Looks like this has been going on for quite a while, and maybe better to open the puss-filled wound than let it spread all over the body?

Of course, you raise a very good point.... Looks like they're milking out every drop of the stoy now, in order to sell. They're witholding 'juicier' bits, so people keep coming back for more. Wrong wrong wrong. Now they're witholding info themselves, too, exactly what they accuse the government of. For profit.

And they keep the issue muddy, that way. Make it impossible to sit back and think clearly what has to be done, because we get 'distracted' by increasingly worrysome material. Show it all in one go, or shut up.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-22 11:02:22

I'll probably regret stirring this up but...

When these photos first turned up I had the straightforward "American troops don't do this sort of thing" response and was rather pissed at the perpetrators. Mitigated with the understanding that the prisoners probably were some real choice scumbags. The conduct is unacceptable, but as time goes on my biggest beef with all this... is that some numbnut was taking pictures.

Yes, I know, gratuitous humiliation of the prisoners. Nothing more humiliating to an Arab man than being led around naked by a woman, they say. I stand by my original thought that some field executions may be in order.

But I really don't give a flying fistful of dung that some terrorist is humiliated. Scaring the crap out of a detainee with a dog? No problem with that.

Again, some of this stuff is truly perverse and not only must punishments get doled out but we need to find the roots of this. But these "torture" pics are not going to lead to "more terrorism." We're fighting people that already want to destroy us, let's please not pretend that a photo of some bare-assed jihadi with a bag over his head is going to make the enemy so pissed off that they'll be even more willing to slaughter Americans than they already were.

They say Nick Berg's beheading was a response to the prison abuses. Bullshit. They'll probably say the same if we get another terrorist attack in the next few months.

I'm appalled that American troops would stoop to this level. But I'm also utterly revolted by the self-loathing shame expressed by some Americans over the humiliation of people who have no qualms with setting American civilains on fire, dragging them through the streets, lopping off their heads or crashing airplanes into buildings.

To the military, you better get to the bottom of this real quick and deal with those responsible so it doesn't happen again.

To the American people, get over it. Remember what we're fighting.

Rxke · 2004-05-22 11:20:15

Problem is, CC, not all of them are terrorists, heck, even some Reuters' people got a piece of the 'fun' ... There's something seriously wrong with the general prison-politics, there.

And do you seriously think the *known* criminals would be handled by rookies like that? The really 'interesting' prisoners are somewhere else, I'd think. Most of the peope at Abu Graib are *suspects* Some of them got set free, so they can't be 'big guys' I'd think...

And BTW... the 911 terrorists were NOT Iraqis, IIRC. But of course that's *exactly* what those idiot prisonguards probably do believe, aaaargh...

And no, pics like that won't change the minds of already 'America-haters,' but they very well might change the minds of the thousands, balancing on the fence... It's the best propaganda the extremist could have dreamed of, I bet they're very happy with the situation.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-22 11:33:20

And no, pics like that won't change the minds of already 'America-haters,' but they very well might change the minds of the thousands, balancing on the fence... It's the best propaganda the extremist could have dreamed of, I bet they're very happy with the situation.

And that is the biggest problem. These handful of prison guards have handed the enemy a stunning piece of propaganda. That is my greatest concern here.

Problem is, CC, not all of them are terrorists, heck, even some Reuters' people got a piece of the 'fun' ... There's something seriously wrong with the general prison-politics, there.

I'm not disputing that there are serious problems, but we can't keep carrying on like this is one of the worst wartime atrocities in human history. It just isn't. This is abuse, but it isn't "torture" and it really isn't a world-shattering point in the big picture.

And do you seriously think the *known* criminals would be handled by rookies like that? The really 'interesting' prisoners are somewhere else, I'd think. Most of the peope at Abu Graib are *suspects* Some of them got set free, so they can't be 'big guys' I'd think...

The big terrorist network people don't stay there long, but many of the prisoners are insurgents. Still others are vicious criminals of a more mundane variety. Yes, a few are unfortunate pedestrians that broke curfew or some other such thing, but not the majority.

There is an effort to portray every instance as incompetent, yet instructed-from-on-high American soldiers abusing poor innocent Iraqis. In the vast majority of cases it just isn't true.

Rxke · 2004-05-22 11:41:29

we can't keep carrying on like this is one of the worst wartime atrocities in human history. It just isn't. This is abuse, but it isn't "torture" and it really isn't a world-shattering point in the big picture.

Indeed. It's 'minor'

But instantaneous, worldwide dissemination of such stuff, thanks to the internet, makes the old lefty "The whole world is watching" warcry more poingnant than ever. Be careful what you do. The whole world is watching indeed.
And while we Europeans might be almost immune to the barrage of bad news on tv, Iraqis, coming out of a *censored* regime, are not. So the impact is different.

And i don't think it's innocent--instructed, too.

Rxke · 2004-05-22 11:47:11

it IS torture. Making a difference between physical an psychological mistreatment is too easy.

I don't touch you, but deprive you of sleep.
I don't touch you, but humiliate you in a way that'll make you feel ashamed of yourself for months, years to come...

It is called 'refined' torture. You don't have scars to show to the world, it's your word against theirs, and you know it.

Mundaka · 2004-05-22 13:23:17

This was a long post addressed to RXKE, jist of which was that I wasn't offended and understand.

Rxke · 2004-05-22 13:59:11

(bit off-topic: My constantly 'refining' my statements is easily explained: I'm a slow keyboard-typer, and non-native... So when i go into a rant, my fingers don't follow, and i'm constantly 'grabbing' for words that are sometimes elusive... so i 'paraphrase' constantly ... also put 'things' between (brackets) all the "time" and ... use too "many" ...dots... you get my drift.)

Anyhoo...

Been thinking what triggers this angry reaction.

U.S. is a superpower. No problems with that, as long as they behave as they say they do.
And then you see them pics, and your reaction, i think is: "Damn, this could happen here, if my govmint does something wrong in their eyes... Those crazy thugs could do that to *ME*... God I hate them, " etc. etc.

It's the skinny kid, hating the big guy, because he knows that, despite the big guy's apparently naive good intentions, his friends go out at night, to beat up other skinny kids, just like him. And the big guys pays for their gas...

(purty bad analogy, sigh... )

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-22 14:02:04

I said this in a private message, but I'd like to post it here as it's relevant to the general discussion.

I know exactly what you mean, it's numbing. Yet I'm also numbed by the quickness and vehemence with which some quarters turn and attack our own troops.

In some mainstream media outlets an Iraqi prisoner with women's underwear on his head was treated as a bigger story, a bigger "war crime" than the beheading of Nick Berg. I'm just saying we need perspective, is all.

What was done at Abu Ghraib was a series of war crimes. Punishments should be swift and severe. But let's be clear, we are fighting an enemy with no respect for our lives. For our own sake and for the war effort, this stuff cannot be allowed. But were the roles reversed they would have no qualms about murdering, raping, or torturing every last American man, woman and child. Perspective.

Worse, the "troops" who did this were Military Police -- within the next five years they will be police here at in the US, pulling our daughters over on dark country roads, during a period in our history when we are all suspects. Make no mistake Cobra, this is coming home to haunt us, and sooner than we think.

Oh, I know. Believe me, this is foremost in my mind. These incidents are a symptom of a much more serious problem for us. It's going to get a whole lot worse before... if it gets better.

Mundaka · 2004-05-22 14:09:35

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-22 15:18:04

Question: How many of you secretly want to go to Mars to get away from all the "normal" people --- and their wars --down here?

Oh, it's no secret, it's my stated purpose! My people and I need a homeland!

To fight the cold ravages of Mars rather than those of man...

Josh Cryer · 2004-05-22 15:28:50

Uh huh Cobra... to built great armies similar to what we have here.

DonPanic · 2004-05-22 15:35:37

LO

What was done at Abu Ghraib was a series of war crimes. Punishments should be swift and severe. But let's be clear, we are fighting an enemy with no respect for our lives. For our own sake and for the war effort, this stuff cannot be allowed.

Who are you at war against by now ?
Shiites wanting the end of occupation ? Sunnis wanting the end of occupation ? Iraqis wanting the end of occupation ?
It's 90% of them. They hate you, that's all. 10 % can be turned, so what ?
What about your pretention to free Iraq ? When I read you, CC, I cannot believe a one second that you want any good to Iraqis ! You are just occupying a country against its will.
Did they allow you to change their flag ?
When I see that Kimmitt claiming no wedding party was bombed by mistake, I have not any trust in any so called US goodwill at Iraq, only goodwill against Iraq, dig it ?

Palomar · 2004-05-22 15:37:10

*What bothers me the most about this scandal is the fact that it seems to prove the global assertion that the U.S. is a big, mean bully.

Yahoo! was running an article (front page), claiming proof the abuses were done for fun and sport...*not* for results (interrogation, information).

I wonder if some of this didn't inadvertently come about as a decades-old fallout from the Vietnam-era's attitude towards that war's soldiers. I have memories of Vietnam, including especially the social stigma applied to those soldiers.

Now we have this attitude that our soldiers are wonderful, perfect, should never be criticized or scrutinized (until now), etc.

The pendulum always swings, huh? Vietnam soldiers were evil, rotten devils to that generation...current soldiers are pure angelic bunny fluff. Until now.

Besides being enraging, it's so f*cking ludicrous all the way around.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I think the U.S. military may have been lulled into this false sense of security that it could do WHATEVER it wanted and the U.S. public would support/welcome them home regardless.

DonPanic · 2004-05-22 16:07:58

LO

*What bothers me the most about this scandal is the fact that it seems to prove the global assertion that the U.S. is a big, mean bully.
--Cindy

Don't worry, by now, about 40% among you are still welcome,
and we'll proud to share the best we have with you,
Xcept if you are a big, mean bully, I don't think so

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-22 16:31:43

Uh huh Cobra... to built great armies similar to what we have here.

Well yeah, when it's my army it isn't such a bad thing.

See, Cobra's full of lessons.

What about your pretention to free Iraq ? When I read you, CC, I cannot believe a one second that you want any good to Iraqis ! You are just occupiing a country against its will.

And the alternative is... what? Have an election, go home and call it a win? While the fundies and terrorists would appreciate that I'm sure, the average Iraqi would then truly have cause for resentment. "Ooh, a whole new home-grown tyrant. Thanks Uncle Sam!" We have to finish this, even if the population gripes about it.

You can't go into a country, topple a totalitarian regime and expect that overnight a republic can be dropped in with a pre-fab constitution and a few ballot boxes. These things take time.

Did they allow you to change their flag ?

For the record, the Iraqi Governing Council changed the flag, and I have maintained that it's a bad move.

When I see that Kimmitt claiming no wedding party was bombed by mistake, I have not any trust in any so called US goodwill at Iraq, only goodwill against Iraq, dig it ?

A valid point. But is it really outside the realm of possibility that a wedding party fired on US troops? I happen to know for a fact that it isn't, it's happened on a number of occasions.

clark · 2004-05-22 16:53:18

But were the roles reversed they would have no qualms about murdering, raping, or torturing every last American man, woman and child. Perspective.

The funny thing about 'perspective' is that the people being tortured are iraqi's and none of them have ever attacked the US, or threatened to attack the US. That was those foreign terroists, remember.

we invaded them to remove saddam, succeeded, and now we are torturing some poor shepards that want us to leave because they happen to hold the opinion that we screwed things up.

just say it's wrong, because it is. torturing and brutilizng these people is wrong. our leaders were wrong to allow it. let's show them that we understand how wrong it is by getting rid of our leaders.

Sorry, but this administration is more of a liability than anything else.

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