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For SpaceNut re #51
Thanks for the link to this interesting report.
As I interpret the article, thermal energy is added to the environment at the time the air is compressed, and thermal energy is pulled from the environment when it is time to generate electrical power. The article does not report efficiency of the process, but it does claim lower cost than competitive systems.
With Highview Power's liquid air energy storage solution, excess or off-peak electricity is used to clean and compress air which is then stored in liquid form in insulated tanks at temperatures approaching 320 degrees below zero Fahrenheit (-196 C). When electricity is in high demand and more valuable, the pressurized gas is allowed to warm, turning a turbine as it expands and thus generating energy that can be used at peak times when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.
A significant advantage of this technology (it seems to me) is that it is readily understandable to investors.
The control electronics can be (and probably is) sophisticated, but (I'm guessing here of course) it is probably a small part of the system.
If heat is drawn from the air that would be a "feature" in hot weather.
The mechanical components would wear out at some rate. It will be interesting to compare the longevity of system components to the lithium battery competition, which also have lifetimes of service before they have to be replaced or rejuvenated.
(th)
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some like the temperature in Kelvin, some in centigrade and others in Fahrenheit....
https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … elsius.htm
https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … enheit.htm
https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … elsius.htm
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas- … -t_22.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air- … d_600.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point
the pressurized gas is allowed to warm, turning a turbine as it expands and thus generating energy that can be used at peak times
on earth the components of air is some water, co+co2, Nitrogen and oxygen and at the temperatures of cooling the atmosphere starts to seperate out but what is the final pressure is required to know if its a slush mixture or liquid.
On mars we are looking to use a natural intake to solar compression to get the volume of co2 without using a lot of power but to make use of the solar concentrated to make power to control compressors and other tools required to seperate the small amounts of water, co and oxygen that is in the air plus the methane out of it so as to make it as pure as we can for use in the follow up steps.
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article from http://www.greenenergytimes.org/wp-cont … y-2020.pdf
pg 10 Liquid Air Energy Storage in Vt and continues on pg 18
Two energy companies announced that they will co-develop a highly unusual energystorage project in Vermont. It will be the first commercial cryogenic energy-storage system in the United States. It will use air that has been cooled to the point of being liquid to store energy. A cryogenic system is similar to a steam engine that recycles its steam. Both systems require energy to make them work, and both produce energy. In a steam system, energy is used to boil water, and condensation requires only cooling off in a heat exchanger, releasing heat to the atmosphere.
In the liquid air system, energy is used to compress the air, which causes it to liquefy, and the boiling is done by drawing heat from the atmosphere in a heat exchanger. Liquid air is held in highly insulated tanks, at a temperature of -196°C (-320°F). At this temperature, it boils very slowly, and the boiling removes heat. In a very efficient cryogenic system, very little of the liquid is lost to keep the rest cold.
Compressing the air takes a fair amount of energy, but boiling liquid air releases energy in the same sort of way boiling water does. The liquid air expands by a factor of 700, as it becomes a gas, and that can drive a turbine.
Much of the theory behind cryogenics has been known since the 19th century. Of course, turning theory into reality is often not terribly easy. Highview Power, a British company that is partnering with Encore Renewable Energy (ERE) for the Vermont storage project, has been pursuing the business of cryogenic energy-storage since 2005. After laboratory work and patent development, it produced a 350-kilowatt pilot project in the UK. Next, with support from the British government, it built a larger project of 5 megawatts (MW). Last October, it built a 50-MW project that could provide 250 megawatt-hours (MWh) of electricity. The project to be built in northern Vermont is of similar power capacity, 50 MW, but with more energy storage, at 400 MWh.
We should note that these projects are both technologically uncomplicated and rather small compared with lithium-ion batteries of similar power capacity, so they do not need much land. They have the same advantage over pumped storage, with the added benefit that they do not have much potential effect on wildlife. Highview Power says they are not expensive. They are very clean and can be powered without any need for fossil fuels.
The decision to build the plant in Vermont solves a problem that exists in the northern part of the state with an old and limited electric transmission system. As the system goes through regular use, with changes in supply and demand of electric power, local power lines can be asked to deliver more electric power than they were designed to conduct. In such a case, one or more tricks have to be employed to reduce the load. In a worst case, the supply may have to be cut off.
The flip side of this is that if too much local power is produced, whether from a wind farm or net-metered solar panels on rooftops, that power has to be curtailed; even if it can be produced, it will not make it to the grid. By putting storage into a place with a limited power grid, it becomes possible to deal with both excess power and excess demand locally. Using the battery means that electricity that would otherwise be lost can be saved for use when it is needed.
Another advantage to local storage is that it provides emergency power support in situations where the grid would otherwise fail altogether. The cryogenic system in northern Vermont could wind up being important, as more extreme weather comes with climate change. Highview Power’s website is www.highviewpower.com. ERE’s website is encorerenewableenergy.com.
This is also going to work on mars with co2 once we have the volume captured.
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For SpaceNut re #54
Thanks for this encouraging report. I like the fact the company has a history of achievement, and I ** really ** like the idea that Vermont is willing to host the 50 MW / 400 MWh storage project.
I'm interested in knowing a bit more about how the system works in winter. One thing I would like to point out for commercial viability is the fact that the stored liquid can be used for cooling homes or buildings. The description you pasted seemed to imply the radiators would pull heat energy from the outdoors, but I expect the system could be adapted to help to cool buildings. We humans are going to need that capability as the Earth warms in coming decades.
Edit: The heat produced by compressing gas for storage would (could) be used to heat homes and businesses during winter. At that time of year, the energy to restore the gaseous state of the stored material would need to come from the outdoors.
Edit#2: The ordinary heat pump already does what the folks building these systems are doing. They appear to be doing it at scale, and with air instead of refrigerant. This choice eliminates the climate change dangers of traditional refrigerants.
I'd like to point out that your suggestion the system would work on Mars needs to take the lesser density of the atmosphere of Mars into account. A nice pairing would be of this system with nuclear power plants which need to dispose of unused heat continuously. Some of that excess can be used to release power stored in liquid gas.
Please keep an eye on this development, and the company behind it. I am wondering if it would work well at the scale of a home heating/cooling/power system. People in my neighborhood have generators on standby because of occasional failure of the central power system. In most cases these backup generators run on methane from the local supply, but they can be adjusted to run on propane, as would be better suited for a rural backup situation.
The system you've shown here is potentially capable of storing enough energy to keep a home running for a week, which is the longest we've been out of power in this community.
While looking into the question of why refrigeration systems use the various gases they do, I found this site:
https://www.refrigerationschool.com/blo … need-know/
It doesn't go into much depth, but it does provide a high level summary of the field.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-19 07:35:10)
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Have made a new topic for the solar concentrated steam boiler
solar concentration Water steam energy creation
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This thread discusses an atmospheric kinetic engine that produces liquid CO2.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7884
It would appear to require very little net energy, thanks to the easy compressibility of CO2 at typical Martian temperatures, which are far beneath the critical point of CO2.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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The night time temperatures fall to with a small amount that would be required by a cold plate to collect it directly from the mars air as meantioned by RobertDyck quite a few times in the past. We scape it off from the plate and place into a cold chamber until we want to make use of it. In which we heat to compress within its volume.
I suggested to make several plates within an enclosure with a door that can be closed so as to lightly warm the plates so as to defrost them in order to draw off the co2 for use after compression and liquification.
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Feeding a Sabatier reactor is problematic if the chamber pressure is as high as I am reading, meaning we need a pressure greater than the chamber to be able to push more in so as to keep it flowing..
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