New Mars Forums

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

Asqus me - to not the inglishversion of tekst -
http://www.astronomy.ru/forum/index.php … #msg384244
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpB … php?t=4173

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,017

Re: Fly to Mars

Welcome to NewMars serj, Try this translators since most on the board use English.

Добро пожаловать к serj NewMars, пытается эт переводчики в виду того что большая часть на английской языке пользы доски.

AltaVista - Babel Fish Translation
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Перевод http://babelfish.altavista.com/ рыб altaVista - babel

This works both ways just type or paste to translate box, select language direction and enter translate.

Это работает и дороги справедливый тип или затир для того чтобы перевести коробку, выбрать направление языка и войти переводит.

Very interesting to find out that there is other blog sites on space elsewhere.

Очень интересно для того чтобы найти вне что будет другие места blog на космосе в другом месте.

I notice that the first link is:
Theme: First colony of earthlings on Mars
While your second is:
First colony of earthlings on Mars

Я замечаю что первое соединение является следующим: Тема: Первая колония earthlings на mars пока ваша секунда является следующим: Первая колония earthlings на mars

Welcome again and enjoy..

Добро пожаловать снова и наслаждайтесь.

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

First colony of earthlings on Mars
First I propose to arrange competition for the selection of the name colony! Secondly I propose to arrange selection among the volunteers for the settling in the colony, for this it is necessary to give information about the equipment of expedition to Mars on entire MEDIA, with the invitation for all those desiring and volunteers. In the third I propose, that those countries, whose volunteers will participate in the base of colony so that they would make the financial contribution for the partial or complete payment of all expenditures of their fellow citizens for the flight for Mars and the equipping on it. Those volunteers, who will put their own significant means for the flight to Mars, they can participate in the competition out of order and they can design on Mars for the extra-budgetary resources of comfort. In the fourth, I propose to search for means for the flight to Mars, and for the building of colony from any possible sources, and that of the sponsors, which will grant more than all means for the colony, by its name can be named colony! Those countries, whose citizens there will be in the colonies about 10% and more, and which will put means for the flight and equipping of their own citizens, they can design for the formation of their own national territory and even for the creation of their own colony on Mars! In the fund for expedition and colony must go the means for sale of territories on Mars to the countries and to citizens... And to post' they will hurry, otherwise best territories will be reached by other! However, for colony itself I propose the lowest place of the valley of Mariner, or another deeper place on the surface of Mars, where the pressure of the atmosphere is greatest... By super-power explosions it is possible to considerably deepen the bottom of cavity for the colony.

The means of delivery it is cargo and passengers from the Earth in orbit
In connection with the extremely limited limit of time and means, any their own rocket to make not possible, to therefore singularly possibly use the existing rockets and to modernize them in particular, by the most suitable rocket from all parameters for the Martian project appears the zenith, with the condition of its maximum reduction of prices, modernizations and sharp growth of its production. Some versions hangars are equivalent to zenith, and we could to us approach, but these versions were necessary no one, but itself of Angar is too distant from the completion, and there is no guarantee whatever, that it generally will fly, however this depends in essence on its masters, and even excluded that with TsIKhom tyuey udatsya to agree... Rocket zenith and some modifications hangars have at the basis the standard starting module URM-2, most convenient for the transport and the operation with the condition of the maximum weight and thrust characteristics of launch vehicle! The most attractive, that on the basis of standard URM it is possible to gather packet from the different number of modules for the heavy launch vehicle! But the very important so as to attain the maximum reduction of prices of launch vehicle with the most possible concluded loads! In particular the replacement OF ZHRD - LIQUID PROPELLANT ROCKET ENGINE with RD -170, on THE NK -33 of times in seven will lower cost, but thrust in this case will be lowered once in five, and for rocket it is necessary to start and to be accelerated with the accelerators. Then in this case it is possible to manage without the second step, but gruzopod'emnost' of rocket can somewhat fall but in the packet gruzopod'mnost' will be sufficiently large. Is unfortunately for the packet necessary special universal launching pad, and this one of the main complexities of project furthermore it is possible instead of the kerosene to use mixture of hydrogen and methane, or liquid hydrogen, and then load capacity one URM will grow to 25-30 t! Additionally it is possible to simplify and to reduce the cost of construction URM, after replacing the milled sheets by the thin and smooth dural or by the glass-fiber-reinforced plastic or the reinforced plastic... As a result the cost of launching zenith 4 will be lowered once in ten, and will compose primrno of approximately 2 million u.e.

Complementary proposals on the organization of expedition.
The collection of volunteers and selection - far from most urgent for the expedition, and with this one should wait a while, those more thus far yet did not enter means... The very fundamental importance has an attraction of organizers of expedition and their assistants, moreover to draw it is necessary them thus far on public principles. Then they will have a priority in obtaining of highly-paid posts in the expedition and in the project, and also the extraordinary right of flight to Mars or into space. It is natural that subsequently the basic work will be carried out on the paid basis. Now directly about purposes and directions of the activity of organizers and assistants. Central objective - maximally wide advertisement and the propaganda of expedition. Moreover it is necessary to complete breakthrough, since now THE MEDIA and many people are extremely negatively disposed against the Martian expedition, and they desire nothing about it to print, even for the pay! It is necessary to search for such newspapers, which will not forego the publication of our materials, after which and the rest will also be are forced to print us... Furthermore, it is necessary to walk to different businessmen and directors of enterprises and firms, and to persuade them to sponsor expedition, and colony on Mars, although this is very thankless work and far from every it will be able to manage... Furthermore, it is necessary to gather all possible materials on different projects of expeditions and flights to Mars and planets, and to select that which to us approaches. It is possible to gather together the best materials and to print pamphlet or book... Furthermore, it is necessary much to work with different firms, and to order in them everything which will be required us for the expedition, beginning from the rockets, and it is necessary everything to keep under control, otherwise any not quick firm, it can tear away entire expedition, with the fact that for us it is necessary to do everything within the most compressed periods...

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Fly to Mars

See if I can catch your meaning from the translation...:

-I don't think that private "volunteer" donations will amount to much as far as Mars hardware. At least not for a long while when AltSpace (small time private companies) get their acts together (SpaceX, Bigelow, etc). Mars will still require money from governments, at least to get a colony started.

-There will be a resistance for large companies to donate lots of money to put their name on anything. At least, not the size of money needed to do much on Mars. Also, colonists on Mars will, I am sure, not like to name things of their colony after Earth companies. Funding colonization by the sale of Martian land sounds interesting though.

-You want the Mars base where there is underground water and ample sunlight. There might be water under the dirt in Valis Marineris, but you wouldn't have good sunlight if you are deep in a canyon. The air pressure won't be alot higher most likely anyway.

-Zenit is a good rocket for payload for the money, but it is a little bit too small to carry payloads to Mars I think. The Moon perhaps, but not Mars. Zenit could be modified however, using a Hydrogen upper stage engine like RD-0146 or RD-56M and combined with small American solid rocket boosters like on our Atlas-V. This would give Zenit about 40 tonnes of payload, sufficent to deliver payloads of reasonable mass directly to Mars orbit.

Zenit however probably can't launch often enough to support a colony, nor do I think it is safe and reliable enough to carry humans on a regular basis, at least not without a great deal of improvements. Zenit would still be useful for moving bulky items and to suppliment some other way to move people and materials to Mars. I also doubt that Zenit's cost can be reduced by 90%, at least not without ruining its performance.

-That other way will probably be some sort of spaceplane, or at least one stage will have wings and return to the launch site for refueling. Something like this would be ideal:

• Shuttle LSA
  Sanger-II

With a target payload of 20MT for the cargo version and 14 people (2 crew plus 12 passengers) for the manned version, and then we could support and grow a Mars colony and not just build one.

-Spreading the work for Mars between many companies can pose problems, that getting all these companies to work together could prove to be difficult and expensive. There is also the risk of what happens if some of these companies fail, and one of the nessesarry Mars parts will no longer be made, stopping the whole enterprise.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

I am not to many taim to rid you replay and no to answer you to this and asqius for this

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Fly to Mars

Here is an idea for you. Start a campaign calling for Energiya (or Angara 100) to be launched--using oil rubles.

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Fly to Mars

Here is an idea for you. Start a campaign calling for Energiya (or Angara 100) to be launched--using oil rubles.

With the current high price of crude oil the Russian economy does have more liquidity, however little of this ends up in the Russian coffers. Russia has enormous problems and funding a civilian space program is way down the list of priorities. The military space program is another matter of course.

---

[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Fly to Mars

Yeah pretty much, the Russian military desperately needs money to stay really relevant versus other developed states for instance.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

I am from Ukrainin...

Creation of atmosphere on Mars.
To throw out comets to Mars is not very simple, they too far fly from Mars, and therefore it is necessary to izraskhodavat' a high fraction of the mass of comet for changing its trajectory, and as a result only small remainder from the comet will remain... Therefore it is necessary either to catch close comet and it is necessary to for long await it or it is necessary to change trayetoriyu of comet, with this calculation that into the following arrival it would fly closely to Mars, and then it it will be possible to direct toward Mars, but with the passage past the sun, the mass of comet nevertheless strongly will fall...

MEANS OF Nransporting OF COMETS.
Nuclear engine for the comet - too expensive a luxury and too sozhnaya a thing for us, to is also necessary separately powerful YARD! It is possible to make WITH RD with the solar heating and with the use of a comet substance as the working medium. In the first version RD is constructed the parabolic body of large sizes into hundred it is meter, to which specular film is put on, and this mirror is focused on the housing RD, into which will be given the substance of comet... Or most simply, mirror can be directed to one point of comet, and gas will be ejected to one side, creating thrust, but with the small EFFICIENCY. In this case it is necessary to stop the rotation of comet, or strongly to slow down, and mirror must be fastened to the comet. If comet not large, then entire it it is possible to assess by film, like the bag, with the nozzle at the end of the bag, and gas will leave through the nozzle and create thrust. But to catch comets too for long is complicated, still it is possible to drive home gas- icy miniasteroidy from the system of Jupiter or Saturn, however this is not also simple... But with the presence of the atmosphere on Mars, it is easily possible to revive it, and it must be heated, and become completely comfortable, even more comfortable than the Earth it is possible to make Mars, if plants entire carbon dioxide to oxygen rework...

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

No one into the next 10-20 years intends to fly neither to Mars nor even to the Moon! Even USA and Russia does not hurry to fly to Mars, it is analogous and Bertha rutans and other petty private traders also do not hurry to fly to Mars! We consider that it is necessary to fly to Mars and as soon as possible, and this flight is completely real! If we now do not fly, thus far it is still possible to fly, then then it can prove to be so that no one no longer will be able to fly, and we not can to await decades and do not desire to await, then, it is very probable that no one will be able to fly, but now there is almost everything for this! But we in THE CIS are too poor, but state they will give for our flight not of one dollar, but we hope with the aid of the community to gather donations for the expedition! And we propose all to that desiring to be joined to us...
To alter zenith to hydrogen good, but we simply do not have time, and therefore it is necessary to gather packet from the steps of zenith and to fly on the kerosene. But it is possible to strongly reduce the cost of zenith, and this greatly will help us with a deficiency in the means... It is singular thus far great difficulties with the advertisement of project and with the collection of means, but we hope this to overcome...

cjchandler

Member

From: canada

Registered: 2006-06-24

Posts: 138

Re: Fly to Mars

Здравствуйте Сери,
Я говорю немного по-русски и игода зтот плохой русски хорошо для тебе? Так, Я думаю что мы не едем к Марсу потому что никто хочет давать деньги за этот полёт. Так, вы нужен находите много деньги, или обнаруживаете ехать к косиосу с мало деньги. Я думаю что рокеты слишком дорого стоит.
До свидания, прощайте мой очень плохой по-русски.

---

Ad astra per aspera!

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Fly to Mars

Yes I would like to get to Mars soon too, but we have to be realistic and patient: it is especially important to be patient so that we don't go to Mars before we are ready to stay. If we go to just plant flags and pick up rocks but don't plan on staying then we shouldn't go yet.

We have the technology to go and visit Mars today, yes, but a large amount of engineering would be required. Also, no rocket is cheap enough to do more than sustain a small science base for a reasonable cost, and rocket costs are largely limited by our technology level.

And again, going to Mars is a big project, and it will cost a huge amount of money. I don't think that any donation system could raise this kind of money.

If we can modify Zenit to make it better able to carry Mars components then I think we should take the time to do that if we are going to use the rocket. Simply launching more Zenits is not the answer, that putting together lots of small payloads is a bad idea. The engines for a "super Zenit" with Hydrogen upper stage and solid boosters are already available too.

I disagree that Zenit can be made to cost much much less, it is made mostly from cheap Aluminum and is already built by cheap labor. Simply building more of them might help drive the cost down, but I doubt it can be built for much less money.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

Zenith can be strongly reduce in priced due to the engines, and due to the cheaper technology... It is completely possible to make approximately entire expedition for pair of billions of dollars, but only condition - it is necessary everything to make maximally rapidly, and with joint forces, but otherwise one by one we nothing will reach... An only question - this time, and it is necessary to be by maximally decisive, there is no time to the long reflections simply. The situation can so change at any moment that all our plans can perish and nasovsem!!!

dicktice

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2002-11-01

Posts: 1,764

Re: Fly to Mars

serj: Please give more information about your background, so we in North America can respond to your ideas regarding space travel more in keeping with your points of view, and come to better mutual understanding. By the way, why is it that you continuously have only 7 posts to your credit?

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Fly to Mars

No I doubt that Zenit can be made for much less money, it is already a pretty simple design using simple materials. You would probably have to go with a single-chamber first stage engine to make it much simpler, and the Russians have little experience with engines that size. The US used to, with the big F-1A, but it and its technology are long gone now. About the only way to make Zenit for much less money is to build more of them, since when you do this each rocket will cost a little bit less. I doubt that it will make a big difference though, given how the people that presently build Zenit can't work for much less, and the materials it is made from are not very expensive.

Getting in a big rush to go to Mars might actually get us to Mars, though probably not for only a few billion, but we probably wouldn't stay on Mars and that is the problem. We should take some time to build the Mars ships right, so that they can be used in the future to help build a base or even a town.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

dicktice

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2002-11-01

Posts: 1,764

Re: Fly to Mars

I don't agree: I can't think of a single past first explorations to unknown places which survived as settlements. (You know the stories of the Vikings, Columbus, Raleigh, Cartier, and the other adventurers, as well as I do.) The first time should only be "for keeps" if the hardware and/or the travelers fail to survive, for unpteen reasons we won't figure out until after they have occured. As with Apollo 11, which was a true first space exploration, and Apollo 13, which was close to being marooned in space, we lucked-out with the help of near-realtime communications and ground support to bring those missions off. The first-time expeditionto Mars, however lucky, will be a shot in the dark as far as human survival is concerned. But that shouldn't stop us: Now is the time to begin, while we still have the capability on Earth to make the attempt. Once begun, the momentum of the resulting global publicity should carry the effort forward ... with backup expeditions planned at the same time, taking advantage of the facts sent back ... at least a rescue mission, if not the initial colonizing imssion itself. And if it turns out to be a one-way trip, that would sure beat getting blown-up in a bus lineup, by somebody who couldn't care less about going to Mars, eh?

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

I assure you, which the zeniths can be modernized and strongly reduced the price, if only let us have time, otherwise it is necessary to fly on what there is...

There is no society as yet, but people gradually is gathered on the different sites, I intensely search for means...

Continuation of the theme of strategy of the mastery of space.

There is no sense to place water in orbit, but water is necessary much! To derive stands ammonia, and oxygen can be caught by low satellite from the atmosphere. For compensating the satellites deceleration, nitrogen is ejected back with a speed not of less than 10 km in s. The plasmajet, fed from the isotopic current source, must be used for this. Oxygen is selected from air by absorbent, and nitrogen in full or in part is ejected in RD. Thus, to take with itself all products, water, oxygen, fuel- from the Earth very not profitably, too much load it is necessary to derive into space from the Earth, on the order of thousands of tons!!! Therefore all this must be manufactured or found in space! In the rocket engines it is possible to use even metal of old satellites, and meteorites, for example from Lagrange's points. Therefore are necessary such RD, capable of working on any materials... Very important task will be a study of the survival of the living beings in the Earth radiation belts and beyond their limits, where possibly still no one flew! And it is necessary to first send there dogs, or other animals. But then already will have to fly man - volunteer, and if flight passes normally, then it will be possible to gradually accelerate ship... Orbital station for the connection with the base on the Earth however will remain, if we it still will exist. To the moon it will be possible to direct mini expedition, for investigating of its surface and search for places for the possible lunar base, if we want the same or we will be forced construct. Toward Mars will be also directed scout ship, with the debarkation of intelligence officers and robots to the surface, and by a study of the possibility of building colony. If certain difficulties for the colony are found, then we will attempt to solve them, otherwise can be required to change the direction of the flight of expedition. Therefore there is no sense immediately by all to fly to Mars and to be set down on it, and intelligence officers will first there work... But we will temporarily settle in space colony... However to fly to Mars is possible after the intelligence officers, but with the calculation, that either recovery to the Moon or Phoebus, either asteroids or Jupiter system...

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

serj:  why is it that you continuously have only 7 posts to your credit?

I did not understand that you have in the form

dicktice

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2002-11-01

Posts: 1,764

Re: Fly to Mars

Well, since you are a serious contributor now, someone in the know (not me, since the new forms are still a mystery to me as well) should help you get credit for your posts. Anybody...?

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Fly to Mars

No dicktice, space exploration is unlike any Earthly exploration because it is so hard to live there. More specifically, it is too hard to live there without substantial material support from Earth. This is totally different than Earthly exploring for the most part because this cost is so high.

The whole point of the first missions either being capable or following on to permanent habitation is to minimize the amount of support required to live there. This is to help avoid what happened after Apollo, where the loss of interest quickly led to abandoning the Moon. So we get to Mars, find permafrost and fossil microbes, come home with boxes of rocks and loads of picture... swell, now what? We have "done" Mars, proved we could do it, accomplished some decent science. After this, there will be a loss of support for further flights needed to establish a base, people will ask "why" no matter what you do or say. So the solution is to make continuing flights to Mars easy and effective enough that the opposition won't raise a fit over the cost. And rockets that are just barely good enough to get there aren't good enough to build things.

We cannot assume there will be this convienant "momentum" from the publicity, we can't bet on the attention span of millions of people. Some of them will stand up and say "no more flights! we have done Mars, spend the money here!," and the key to building bases and towns on Mars is to make sure that these people are few enough in number not to derail continuing flights. If that means delaying flights for a few years, so be it.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

noosfractal

Member

From: Biosphere 1

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 824

Website

Re: Fly to Mars

Well, since you are a serious contributor now, someone in the know (not me, since the new forms are still a mystery to me as well) should help you get credit for your posts. Anybody...?

dicktice, serj's post count is normal and correct.

peace to you.

---

Fan of [url=http://www.red-oasis.com/]Red Oasis[/url]

dicktice

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2002-11-01

Posts: 1,764

Re: Fly to Mars

Well, I agree in general with all you wrote, except perhaps "bringing back [to Earth?] samples of permafrost and [maybe not fossil] microbes. I'd test 'em in an orbital lab facility first ... but that's beside the point. I was attempting to probe the acceptability of a conditional "suicide" mission, just in case returning from the surface, etc. failed ... with the possibility of a follow-on rescue/colonization mission as a consequence being carried out by a consortium of national participants. I know, I know, I read something like that in a scifi story, when selfless suicides were still shocking. No, you're right, but the time element--granted the war potential for preventing a full-blown expedition--is unnerving, to one who wants to have a ringside seat when we land on Mars.

dicktice

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2002-11-01

Posts: 1,764

Re: Fly to Mars

Well, since you are a serious contributor now, someone in the know (not me, since the new forms are still a mystery to me as well) should help you get credit for your posts. Anybody...?

dicktice, serj's post count is normal and correct.

peace to you.

Thanks, but why now are serj's last three post totals "9"?

Edit: Hey, I just noticed that nobody's totals change: What gives?

noosfractal

Member

From: Biosphere 1

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 824

Website

Re: Fly to Mars

Thanks, but why now are serj's last three post totals "9"?

Because he has made a total of 9 posts.

Edit: Hey, I just noticed that nobody's totals change: What gives?

Think of the post total as a window into your database record instead of an unchanging stamp for each post.

---

Fan of [url=http://www.red-oasis.com/]Red Oasis[/url]

serj

Banned

Registered: 2006-10-25

Posts: 40

Re: Fly to Mars

I do not greatly understand on English... Concerning support colonies from the Earth, it certainly very indeed is necessary, but it is very probable that this support can be broken at any moment, and then for colonists it is necessary to design only for its own forces, and it is necessary to prepare everything so that they could manage without the outside aid
To create colony is possible on most primitive technology, as there is no time America was colonized on the decrepit sailboats, so even on the Hitler technology possible space it was to colonize. Problem in the fact that to people space absolutely not of potreben and it is not necessary entirely, and therefore no one besides Korolev attempted nor attempts him to colonize... The civilization of the Earth is anti-space never absolutely and anti-intellectual it, and therefore even space not to see by it, as its own take in. The Earth is excessively very already comfortable for the people, but space terrifically it is dangerous and for the life not suitable and almost entirely, but therefore people fear, they do not want in it to live, to fly for a long time indeed there and do not desire entirely! Only there are some idlers, to whom space is necessary through the television set, and through the Internet, others not to find and in the daytime with the fire entirely, well besides perhaps that also military and zarobitchan... But therefore a question about the colonization it is not possible to raise and entirely, and chains terrible through soul everything passed, and they release no one from the Earth, and to tear all chains is capable none!!! It was mistaken 4, there is not one living subjugator of the universe on the Earth, well perhaps that children only can be will be brought up for space of some, but with them too is much necessary to be conveyed indeed, and there is no time entirely for this! Furthermore, with the finances enormous problem, people it is greedy excessively, sooner to tserkvu tyuey podadut how to the rocket they will throw ruble! And they desire the collections none, and to make they do not want to allow us...