Everything BUT the bolts...

Palomar · 2004-10-06 13:13:02

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n041 … ort/]Cause for NOAA N-Prime weather satellite fall found

*...incompetence. Factory workers neglected to secure two dozen bolts. Will withhold some scathing comments as to HOW this could have occurred. :rant:

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-10-06 13:20:58

Probably(not really) the same safety guy who worked on inspecting the shuttle?

Arrest exposes NASA safety: A former inspector is accused of rubber-stamping critical shuttle checks
Orlando Sentinel — 7:40 am ET (1140 GMT)
http://www.spacetoday.net/getarticle.php3?id=52595

Ex-NASA worker faces 83 counts: Shuttle checks may have been falsely reported
Florida Today — 7:33 am ET (1133 GMT)
http://www.spacetoday.net/getarticle.php3?id=52594

Ex-NASA inspector accused of lying about shuttle checks
AP — 7:32 am ET (1132 GMT)
http://www.spacetoday.net/getarticle.php3?id=52593

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-06 13:23:42

It just goes to show you, never let engineers build anything without a few grimy machinists around to point out when they're overlooking something painfully obvious.

Palomar · 2004-10-06 13:27:55

*Damn (SpaceNut's comments and links re: shuttle). Human lives at stake!

What is the problem, exactly? The article about NOAA points out communication failures and the like. Probably pretty much the same short of b.s. that goes on in offices and general workplaces. A combination of superiors with a superior attitude, go-betweens who get messages goofed up, underlings who feel unappreciated and so become withdrawn, etc. Overworked/underpaid, that sort of thing. And of course some people just plain lazy, 3 goof-offs for 1 good solid worker (goof-offs never get in trouble for it, keep getting away with it), etc.

I'm amazed half the stuff we manage to achieve (in any sort of endeavor) even gets done in the first place, all things considered.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-10-06 13:39:11

I know I myself was very shocked at the shuttle news and of the Cause for NOAA N-Prime weather satellite to fall.

Edit
It appears that they will be giving up the profit that they would have made on the project.
Lockheed Martin to refund profits on damaged satellite
http://www.spacetoday.net/

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-06 17:45:55

Someone here in Australia once asked: "What's going to happen when the last few people who actually give a damn finally stop caring?"
This may represent a slightly jaundiced view of life but it definitely takes on renewed meaning when you see reports like this.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but I remember reading (in Andrew Chaikin's 'A Man On The Moon', I think, though I can't seem to find it now) about one of the Apollo 'mechanics' back in the glory days. An astronaut, looking over a Saturn V at night just prior to one of the Moon missions, was surprised to find one of the workers still checking things long after everyone else had gone home. When asked what he was doing there so late, he said something to this effect: "If this mission fails, it sure isn't going to be because of me!"
In my mind, this sums up the attitude of that breed of American scientists, engineers, and technicians who made things happen back in the sixties. The U.S.A. was rightly famous back then for the 'can-do' mentality which never yielded to problems. Problems were seen only as opportunities to come up with ingenious solutions.
I think Burt Rutan may be one of the last examples of that kind of thinking and I can't tell you how much I admire that man for getting the job done and getting it done right!
:up:

I think we all need to work towards encouraging people to "give a damn" again. 'Close enough' isn't 'good enough'; we need more attention to detail, if you ask me.
:hm:

[ :rant: ... end of rant! :laugh: ]

Palomar · 2004-10-06 19:14:40

Someone here in Australia once asked: "What's going to happen when the last few people who actually give a damn finally stop caring?"
This may represent a slightly jaundiced view of life but it definitely takes on renewed meaning when you see reports like this.

*I don't think it's a jaundiced view of life...it's realistic, IMO.

Here's the difference, in a nutshell --

Back then: You want it? You work for it. Apply yourself, put forth enough effort, etc. Might require a bit of time and patience to see the results come to fruition. And if you're not willing to work/strive for something, too bad if you don't get it (what did you expect?).

Nowadays: "You DESERVE it" drilled into people's heads over and over and over. Sense of entitlement. The second a couple is married they MUST have 2 *new* cars, a 3-bed/2 bath home, TVs in every bedroom, washer/dryer/dishwasher, brand new furniture -- the works. NOW. Instant gratification.

There's nothing wrong with having nice things or wanting nice things. The difference is the attitude.

I hear a lot of flattery, especially during election years. Americans are hard-working people, etc., etc. A lot are. Quite a few -aren't-! They welch on the job, do as little as possible to get a paycheck, etc. In the late '90s I worked for a hospital in Albquerque; it was the cushiest, most accommodating job I'd yet had. Great pay, nice working conditions, bosses left us alone, terrific benefits. What did 90% of my coworkers do? Moan and whine all day long, every day.

The "attitude of ingratitude" and overweening, irrational sense of entitlement is hurting this society.

The American Dream is about obtaining through effort and work; responsibility, accountability, organization, etc. Not sitting on one's duff and expecting to have everything dropped into one's lap, never having to lift a finger, "just because."

-whew- End of rant. :laugh:

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-07 06:56:54

That was a damned fine rant, Cindy!

And, as a recognised ranter from way back, I feel I'm in a pretty good position to say that with some considerable authority. The fact is, I agree with every word and couldn't have ranted it better myself!
:rant: [ ]

SpaceNut · 2004-10-07 08:02:46

Not only has the employees work ethic and principles changed but also the employer, boss, corporations view of what a worker is entitled to, for having work hard for them for many years until retirement. Most employers as well now no longer want to train there personnel to do there job, they chose not to pay for the value of educational degrees but want them, then some are changing benefit packages for those retirees and drop any pensions that they would have.
These are just some of the things that I have seen in only the last 20 plus years of working in the State of NH.

Palomar · 2004-10-07 08:36:30

Not only has the employees work ethic and principles changed but also the employer, boss, corporations view of what a worker is entitled to,...then some are changing benifit packages for those retirees and drop any pentions that they would have.
These are just some of the things that I have seen in only the last 20 plus years of working in the State of NH.

*Yep, that's definitely part of the problem as well. I remember the scandal involving the Campbell's Soup Company in the early 1990s: People who had worked for them for decades suddenly "laid off" -- which, of course, cheated them out of their pensions.

Yes, there's enough blame to go around. I've seen nasty, contemptible employers (have worked for a few of them) who treat their employees like dirt...and I've known stupid coworkers who abuse and disdain a good employer.

Not sure where all this trouble started precisely; seems complex. Not sure where it's heading either. Seems a lose/lose proposition; whoever can get in the first stab in the back I guess. And sometimes the other party isn't intending to backstab.

I'm glad I work in my home. Especially with my husband's health issues. I had enough of it either being a) the doctors or b) the bosses or c) the coworkers being childish, royal pains in the backside; 14 years of it. Who needs it? When I'm working, I -work-. Don't have time for and don't miss the ego fits, drama parades, and people taking out the frustrations of their personal lives onto others.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-10-08 11:35:03

And this sort of goes without saying as well for unions and civil servants, thou not all of it is bad...

Ames Federal Employees Union complaint: "slandering NASA's civil servant workforce"

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=14166

C M Edwards · 2004-10-11 05:44:01

Caution: Pedantic, off-topic ranting ramble follows.

An increasing general laziness and false entitlement are indeed rotting out the modern workforce. However, these are just symptoms of the real problems, not root causes. The real problems are overpopulation (which magnifies every minor defect), shortsightedness, and greed.

Unenlightened greed is more insidious than merely attempting to gouge workers and suck up resources. It has corrupted the very theoretical foundations of economics.

For example, consider the fate of time-and-a-half paid overtime.

For an employee, computing your pay with overtime is fairly simple (though getting less & less familiar to the average worker). For the employer, it's a little more complicated because you have to pay all of your employees. However, the boss's job is made simpler by the fact that each employee's job task (in theory) only takes a certain number of man-hours per pay period to accomplish. Putting double the number of employees on any given job should half the time needed to do it. Employees must compute their paychecks in real time, but employers can accurately project their payrolls in man-hours. This is advantageous to the employers, because if they can just assign enough employees to a job, they can reduce the real time needed to do it below the level where they need to pay anyone overtime. This is cheaper. The employer gets the same amount of work done, but only pays the base wage to get it done.

In theory, this is how all jobs should be managed. It's better to throw more people at a problem than it is to throw more money. Any overtime paid reflects a problem in management or workforce. Overtime preferrably shouldn't even be allowed. The equations say so!

That's the theory, anyway.

In reality, all economic terms have a margin of error. Saying that one intends to manage a task so that no overtime is required is really saying that one intends to micromanage every fifteen minute segment of every worker's day like a switch-toting schoolmarm. This erodes morale, and builds an expectation that the boss and/or company will step in and solve any problems an employee won't.

Just flatly denying overtime also erodes morale. It creates an entire workforce where half the employees are thinking "Gee, if I could just stay at this for just fifteen more minutes, I wouldn't be set back by an hour tomorrow morning," and the other half are thinking, "I'll just do it tomorrow, since nothing I do makes a difference to my workload anyway." Small amounts of overtime claimed on their own initiative are an indication that employees are actually concerned about doing their jobs. Denying them implies that employees can't make a difference or that the job itself isn't important enough to bother. It also promotes clock watching, which degrades efficiencies still further.

Cost efficiency isn't necessarily cost efficient. But there's an entire school of business management that says this sort of thing is exactly what we need. Just go to Walmart, the world's largest employer at this time, and ask around.

If you think this isn't an insidious problem, ask yourself the following: Would you, as an employer, prefer to save several hundred thousand dollars in overtime, or spend that extra money just to have that one mission-critical bolt tightend on your company's next $50 million communications satellite that wouldn't be tightened if your technician can't spend 30 extra minutes at work before his two week vacation? You might be surprised at how many greedy bastards would pick the first option.

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#1 2004-10-06 13:13:02

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#2 2004-10-06 13:20:58

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#3 2004-10-06 13:23:42

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#4 2004-10-06 13:27:55

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#5 2004-10-06 13:39:11

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#6 2004-10-06 17:45:55

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#7 2004-10-06 19:14:40

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#8 2004-10-07 06:56:54

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#9 2004-10-07 08:02:46

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#10 2004-10-07 08:36:30

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#11 2004-10-08 11:35:03

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

#12 2004-10-11 05:44:01

Re: Everything BUT the bolts...

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