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#1 2004-03-12 20:26:23

Scott G. Beach
Banned
Registered: 2002-07-08
Posts: 288

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

My plan for the exploration and settlement of Mars includes a Constitution of the Provisional Government of Mars.  That Constitution authorizes the establishment of a Mars Development Bank and it authorizes the Bank to issue money.  If I were the President of that Bank I would recommend that the Bank's Board of Directors adopt a resolution authorizing me to issue coins that contain various amounts of fine gold.  Furthermore, I would recommend that the Directors resolve that the Bank shall not issue paper money.  I would remind the Directors that in 1729 Voltaire wrote  "Paper money eventually goes down to its intrinsic value -- zero."

The coins issued by Mars Development Bank might be made of a Titanium and Zirconium alloy that is known by the trade name "Liquidmetal."  This alloy is more durable than stainless steel and it is very easily formed into coins that bear highly detailed designs.  The coins could be silver-plated as a health measure (silver has antibacterial and antiviral properties).

I have drawn a design for such coins.  That drawing is posted on the web at [http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/mdbcoin.htm]http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/mdbcoin.htm


"Analysis, whether economic or other, never yields more that a statement about the tendencies present in an observable pattern."  Joseph A. Schumpeter; Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy, 1942

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#2 2004-03-12 21:08:08

Yang Liwei Rocket
Member
Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Issue a Martian currency using the bi-metalic standrad like others have done in the past? To Issue a currency with a bimetalic standard would have flaws in the long term but benefits in the short ( good for early colonistaion ). Yes its true mars has many resources, deuterium is  important and we have evidence for an abundance of rare metals on Mars such as platinum, gold, silver, and others minerals. Shipping from Mars to Earth,  should much easier than the Earth-Mars voyage.


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

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#3 2004-03-13 00:21:58

A.J.Armitage
Member
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 239

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

But shouldn't it include a depiction of a copulation ritual?


Human: the other red meat.

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#4 2004-03-13 08:48:53

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

There really isn't anything wrong with paper money as long is it is backed by something. A pocket full of gold coins would be inconvenient, so a gold-backed promissory note of some sort seems a good alternative, not only on Mars but here on Earth.

We should avoid purely paper currency, such as the kind that most of the planet currently uses. It is fiat currency, backed by nothing. The value of paper money is pure fantasy. It only works as long as we all hold the same delusion.

Gold-backed currency on the other hand is not only the "natural" monetary form (we've usd it fo thousands of years) it is a good benchmark. Even in the case of a massive gold mine being discovered on Mars or from asteroids, the inflation would be stable and controlled by being directly tied to something real.

As a sidenote, I would recommend that anyone, but particularly those who have made finance their lives, from the Fed Chairman to the lowly stockbroker, get a reminder of the fragility of the paper money system. I have on my desk a banknote from the old Weimar Republic of post-WW1 Germany. The face value is 100 million Reichmarks! At the height of inflation it may have bought a potato. Beware the fiat paper money, for it is folly.

But then I'd be the guy out on the Martian frontier with a rifle and a fist full of Aurics...


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#5 2004-03-16 16:23:51

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

[sigh] Some lessons are never learned...

To all my would be Martian colonists, what is the first lesson learned on the trip to Mars?

It takes longer, it costs more, the more you weigh yourself down. Travel light, and you travel far.

Remember what you will learn in Martian school, out on the red rocked plains, "it is the dust that flies like the wind, it is the heavy mountain that never moves."

Pretty coins that shine silver and gold are beautiful to hold, and beautiful to behold. But be practical, be Martian. big_smile

No paper, becuase we need trees for other things. No metal coins, because metal is for building, not buying.

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#6 2004-03-17 16:21:09

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Pretty coins that shine silver and gold are beautiful to hold, and beautiful to behold. But be practical, be Martian. 

No paper, becuase we need trees for other things. No metal coins, because metal is for building, not buying.

And you plan to build what precisely from gold? Not a load-bearing structure I would hope.  big_smile

Wiring? Bah! Using a slightly less efficient conductor is a small price to pay for a stable, reliable, and universally accepted currency.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#7 2004-03-17 19:19:09

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Of course not. Nothing but golden calf's... as far as the eye can see.  big_smile

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through, on Mars, so you can feel confident that the metal in your hand is worth what you think it is. Everyone has a favorite "blanky", even our beloved Commander.  :laugh:

Carpe Mars!

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#8 2004-03-17 19:36:38

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Of course not. Nothing but golden calf's... as far as the eye can see.

Haha!  :laugh:

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through, on Mars, so you can feel confident that the metal in your hand is worth what you think it is. Everyone has a favorite "blanky", even our beloved Commander.

Merely being practical, though in a long-term sense.  Gold coinage would prevent the sort of uncontrollable inflation that fiat currencies are prone to. The fact that I can have a pocket full of money from apartheid South Africa, Napoleonic France, the Soviet Union and the Roman Empire and still have it considered valuable in a monetary sense is quite attractive when searching for a unit of currency. We essentially have an exchange rate on currency from dead regimes if it is made of the right metals, and we've had this in place for thousands of years. The money is valued for what it is, not whose picture is on it. It works.

Compare this to billion-mark Weimar notes and the recently worthless Saddam currency. Or our own steadily eroding dollar.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#9 2004-03-17 19:44:50

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

This is all assuming we'd have a need for a silly monetary system anyway... :;):


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#10 2004-03-18 05:52:00

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Practical in the long term sense? I question the sensibility in believing in the value of metal based currency when humanity contemplates colonizing the heavens and exploiting the metal based asteroids.

A mountain of gold makes your pocket full of gold pale in comparison.  :laugh:

Your still wedded to the traditional ideas of Terra, Martian Commander! Unlike gravity, the clutches of these ideas takes a bit more than equations and delta-v.

If we have coins, then we need pockets. We need wallets. We need purses. We need to mine metals to make the coins. We need machines to smelt the metal. We need machines to mint the coins. We need people to protect the minted coins. We need to set up distribution points for the protected and minted coins. We need energy for all points along this production line.

All for the jingle-jangle sound of a Friday payday.

Now who is being practical?

And, last time I checked, no amount of metal based currency from any long vanished nation will buy me anything at Walmart or the local groccery store. I can resell it the coins to someone who sees their value, based on historical significance, but not on the value of the coin itself.

Future Martian currency will be based  a Chron, whose value is  based on time-energy production/consumption. Human labor is the value by which all monetary systems are designed to signify. So to Mars.

An example: Go bury your gold coin in your back yard. Dig it up in 10 years. Will it be worth more, or less? Will there be more gold coins, or the same number?

Now, put that same gold coin in a bank, or give it to a strugglining artist/inventor. Come back in ten years, will the gold coin be worth more, or less? Will there be more gold coins, or the same number?

You gain more gold coins if human labor can utilize it somehow to produce something more. The gold coin itself has no real value other than as an object unto itself.

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#11 2004-03-18 10:03:18

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Yeah, but then what about other more rare things? Like platinum? Or tangible things, like He3? (Mind you, He3 could theoretically be mined without human labor, it's just that it could be rare in the same way DeBears makes diamonds rare.)

The reason for a monetary system is scarcity. I think Martian colonists will be in a good position to have a culture "without scarcity." This doesn't mean I think they'd have everything, just that they would be content with everything that they had (remember all the arguments about toilet paper we used to have?). In cases where they do need something, though, I think they would be better off bartering tangible, useable, stuff, rather than relying on people accepting the "Rare Stuff Standard."

Because you can't always guarantee that you driving up to a colony with a few ounces of He3 is always going to get you anywhere; maybe the colony doesn't need He3. Much less gold, which in reality has few uses that more abundent elements don't have. And you know me, I don't think a colony would be smart to have a reliance on He3, anyway.

So I agree with you, but disagree.


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#12 2004-03-18 10:08:56

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

So I agree with you, but disagree.

:laugh:

I'll settle for that, since that's about all I can expect.  tongue

By all means, let's make gas a monetary currency, cause I'm full of it!

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#13 2004-03-18 16:11:07

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Practical in the long term sense? I question the sensibility in believing in the value of metal based currency when humanity contemplates colonizing the heavens and exploiting the metal based asteroids.

Which I acknowledge as a potential problem. But in the worst-case asteroid mining scenario, gold-money speaking, we merely have controlled inflation based on actual tangible stuff rather than phantom numbers.

And again, we don't necessarily need gold coinage to actually circulate, it can just serve as the basis for the currency. You have a paper bill or a plastic card redeemable for so many of the gold coins, should one be so inclined.

The catch is that the amount of circulating "credit" must actually correspond to the amount of gold held by the government, an area where such schemes have often blundered.

And, last time I checked, no amount of metal based currency from any long vanished nation will buy me anything at Walmart or the local groccery store. I can resell it the coins to someone who sees their value, based on historical significance, but not on the value of the coin itself.

No, you can't currently use it directly, but it is easily exchanged. But you are mistaken about the value of the coins, they can often be sold for higher prices because of historical significance, but they still can fetch the market price of gold regardless. Take your Sovereigns and melt them into a lump and they still have real trade value.

Future Martian currency will be based  a Chron, whose value is  based on time-energy production/consumption. Human labor is the value by which all monetary systems are designed to signify. So to Mars.

But how do you uniformly quantify human labor?

The reason for a monetary system is scarcity. I think Martian colonists will be in a good position to have a culture "without scarcity." This doesn't mean I think they'd have everything, just that they would be content with everything that they had (remember all the arguments about toilet paper we used to have?). In cases where they do need something, though, I think they would be better off bartering tangible, useable, stuff, rather than relying on people accepting the "Rare Stuff Standard."

Not entirely accurate, scarcity is why certain items were originally chosen as money but is not the reason for money. It was just easier to take a bag of gold and silver nuggets to the next village than to take six goats, a camel, a pig and twelve baskets to trade. Barter is a primitve form of commerce, as societies evolve something more uniform is needed.

By all means, let's make gas a monetary currency, cause I'm full of it!

I'm filing this admission for later reference.  big_smile


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#14 2004-03-18 16:26:16

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

But how do you uniformly quantify human labor?

On a subjective value based system that evaluates labor/time for the desired labor. People get salaries, they get wages, right? They're being told what their 1 hour/year effort is worth. It's not uniform, becuase different people produce different results for the labor/time invested. Some salesmen get a bonus becuase they produce more in less time in comparison to their peers, and vice versa.

Objects are not the source of wealth. Sorry to get Fung Shui on you, but human labor is the source of wealth. Gold backed currency dosen't matter. It can be freaking grass for all it matters- or brass, or chrome, or anything else you think is pur-ty.

But I suppose we will need some coins if for no other reason than future Martians will want some quarters to flip into shot glasses while they play their martian drinking games.  yikes

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#15 2004-03-18 18:37:36

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

On a subjective value based system that evaluates labor/time for the desired labor. People get salaries, they get wages, right? They're being told what their 1 hour/year effort is worth. It's not uniform, becuase different people produce different results for the labor/time invested. Some salesmen get a bonus becuase they produce more in less time in comparison to their peers, and vice versa.

Objects are not the source of wealth. Sorry to get Fung Shui on you, but human labor is the source of wealth. Gold backed currency dosen't matter. It can be freaking grass for all it matters- or brass, or chrome, or anything else you think is pur-ty.

Human labor is the source of wealth, but that wealth needs to be quantified in some way to allow for exchange of goods and services. So we can do that in two ways:

1) we can find something rare and establish a uniform set of measures for it, or...

2) we can have the governing authority issue a token of some sort which implies "this is valuable, trust it."

With the former we have a reasonably stable currency, the latter gives us a great deal of uncertainty. The only other option is to regress to barter. I'll give you a pressure suit, two CO2 scrubbers, a watch and a hamburger for your rover.  big_smile

And how do we pay the people that made all that crap? An envelope of grass that says "legal tender" on it probably isn't the best approach.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#16 2004-03-19 00:46:57

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Hmm, I dunno Cobra. I think that scaricty results in bartering situations (and monetary systems are just a way to make it easier, to an extent). If that town had all the things you listed, there would be no potential bartering situation. Between two towns which are self reliant (like any sufficiently sane colony would be), bartering situations would be so remote as to make a monetary (be it fiat currency, or a [http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0 … rintable=1]rare whatever standard) system kind of... excessive. Just my opinion, of course.

I tend to be a romantic about Mars' economy. Let us roam free, without goverment, bartering (or even giving away) useful technologies without standard forms of money. heh


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#17 2004-03-19 13:47:35

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

Signifiers! [arrrgggh]:D

Ever take part in an imaginary tea party?

Dosen't work out right unless everyone who participates imagines the same thing. 

gold, paper, or even envelopes full of grass have no value, no meaning, other than what we, as in people, all agree to.

So, we agree to what a dollar is, but not what form it should take.

'Work' is what ever you have to do to get the things you need and want. Money, in any form, is a way of quantifiying the amount of time you must spend working to get these things.

In the mean time, I'll work on figuring out how to give you gold coins in a future world where gold is made meaningless.  tongue

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#18 2004-03-20 15:11:48

JammerG55
Banned
From: Shasta lake ca, 7 hrs north of
Registered: 2004-02-18
Posts: 46

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

true true. but how can one tell what is truly vallued on mars besides the obvious, such as air food and water


The sky is the limit...unless you live in a cave big_smile

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#19 2004-03-20 15:13:02

JammerG55
Banned
From: Shasta lake ca, 7 hrs north of
Registered: 2004-02-18
Posts: 46

Re: Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)

there would be heavy pockets full of martian coins!!! big_smile


The sky is the limit...unless you live in a cave big_smile

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