Designer Plants on Mars

Palomar · 2005-05-20 06:16:56

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-base-05d.html]This is funky

*Could provide food, oxygen and medicine. Gene splicing involved (taking useful genes from extremophiles).

Haven't seen this article posted yet and Search yielded no results.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2005-05-20 08:17:41

Nice one, once again, NIAC! (I love them)

Though I'm a card-carrying Greenpeace member (hey, in old Europe that's not considered a crime!) I can already hear some sandal wearing not-from this world hippies screaming bloody murder at this research

I'm a total amateur in this field, but why don't they look for traits that act 'good' in low pressure environments? Probably something very hard to pinpoint, I guess... Solar radiation and low temp isn't that a biggie, a lot of organisms know how to handle that, but near vacuum conditions? are there bacteria hanging on at mount Everest?
And isn't NIAC aiming a bit high? complex plantlife... fit for Mars... Higly unlikely to 'get there' in the near future... Why not try to design something primitive that can survive and multiply, releasing something, anything, while doing their stuff... Oxy, or even dead organic waste, bound nitrogen, anything is good. Those organisms could literally prepare the ground for some more advanced plantlife to take root in the 'minimally terraformed' soil. Just like on Earth.

Palomar · 2005-05-20 09:35:46

Nice one, once again, NIAC! (I love them)
Though I'm a card-carrying Greenpeace member (hey, in old Europe that's not considered a crime!) I can already hear some sandal wearing not-from this world hippies

*Rik is a hippie!

:;):

*I didn't consider how Greenpeace might react. :-\ Usually I associate them with anti-nuclear stuff. Guess I'm not familiar enough with Greenpeace to know why they might be opposed to this? I know they're opposed to genetically-engineered crops and foodstuffs, but this technology on -Mars-...what would be their protest? Except, of course, if it's being considered for use here on Earth. But for Mars application, they'd be stepping out of bounds to protest that, IMO.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-05-20 10:01:20

There had been lots of news over the past year or so about GM bio enhanced crops and the fear that they would get into the regular crops. I guess most just prefer the old fashion way of cross pollination to come up with mixed strains.

SpaceNut · 2005-05-20 12:55:34

Pasted From Marsnews site:
[url=http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2005news/marsalgae.htm]
Traces Of Stowaway Earth Algae Could Survive On Mars, Study Finds University of Florida [/url]

Some hardy Earth microbes could survive long enough on Mars to complicate the search for alien life, according to a new study co-authored by University of Florida researchers. Though scientists looking for life on Mars worry about contamination from stowaway spores clinging to spacecraft, the inhospitable Martian environment is actually an effective sterilizing agent: The intense ultraviolet rays that bombard the Martian surface are quickly fatal to most Earth microbes. However, the new study shows that at least one tough Earth species, a type of blue-green algae called Chroococcidiopsis, could live just long enough to leave a biological trace in the Martian soil – creating a potential false positive.

Rxke · 2005-05-20 15:12:39

Wow...

99,9% dies after 5mins exposure of UV (Mars-analog,) but under 1mm of sand they survive...

From the article:
"Under those conditions, they wouldn’t necessarily grow or reproduce and are therefore unlikely to pose an ongoing contamination threat, he added.

Rummel agreed. “You might have a very lonely cyanobacterium waiting for something to happen.”

I only see here what I want to see: they do *not* say it`s impossible for Earth-bacteria to grow or reproduce on Mars, they say it`s hard...

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-26 05:23:40

This is an interesting thread and I'm sorry I missed it earlier. :up:
[By the way, nice emoticons, Cindy. And nicely utilized to embarrass the cr*p out of poor old Rik!! :laugh: )
Actually, Rik, I was a fully paid up member of Greenpeace for a number of years myself, believing them to be protecting the seas from overfishing and looking after the whales and dolphins, which I happen to care about. Then something happened to change my mind about them - can't remember what, now - and I've never been back.
By rights, as soon as the French government saw fit to sink one of Greenpeace's ships in a New Zealand port, and kill the captain at the same time, I should have re-evaluated their worth. [Greenpeace was contesting the right of France to test their thermonuclear weapons in the South Pacific, polluting the pristine waters with poisonous radioactive by-products.]

Rik:-

I only see here what I want to see: they do *not* say it`s impossible for Earth-bacteria to grow or reproduce on Mars, they say it`s hard...

Yes, indeed. Inadequately sterilized probes have crashed into the Martian regolith on more than one occasion since the 60s. Given the protection of Martian soil and the known existence of subsurface ice/water in many areas, including the equator, a few terrestrial bacteria could have multiplied and evolved over these past 40 years. Perhaps many of them have spread, via subterranean crevices and whatever hydrological system may exist there, and populated much of the Martian crust by now. (A bacterial population can double 4 times and more in one hour if conditions are suitable. Never underestimate the power of a geometric progression! )
Even if the bacteria and moulds we sent to Mars on probes didn't get a hold, bacteria carried from Earth by meteoritic ejecta on a regular basis over the past 4 billion years almost certainly will have done.
Oops! There I go on the old soap box again! :laugh:

Palomar · 2005-05-26 05:56:48

By rights, as soon as the French government saw fit to sink one of Greenpeace's ships in a New Zealand port, and kill the captain at the same time, I should have re-evaluated their worth. [Greenpeace was contesting the right of France to test their thermonuclear weapons in the South Pacific, polluting the pristine waters with poisonous radioactive by-products.]

*I'm not quite following you on this, Shaun. ?

Frankly, Greenpeace strikes me as radical. Sure, they probably do some genuine good; maybe lots in fact. It's like PETA; they do some good yet they're extremist radicals.

Of course there maybe differences as to how the word "radical" is defined...but I've discovered (by unpleasant experience) they're best left alone.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-26 17:11:49

Cindy:-

*I'm not quite following you on this, Shaun. ?

Two apologies, Cindy!

Firstly, for allowing the reference to Greenpeace to get me off-topic; this thread is nothing to do with it, I know, and I shouldn't have digressed. But I was interested to hear that Rik is a member of Greenpeace and thought I'd mention in passing that I used to be a member myself, before their radicalism turned me off. In retrospect though, after their ship was sunk by the French in 1985, I should have realized they were actually doing a good job as far as protesting against and publicizing French nuclear testing in the South Pacific was concerned. And maybe I should have cut them some slack. [I think the French, the U.S., and everybody else for that matter, should test their nuclear bombs in their own backyard - not mine!]

Secondly, after many years, and because of my gradual descent into senile dementia (! ), I forgot which crewmember of the Rainbow Warrior was killed in the French attack in New Zealand. I thought it was the captain but realize now it was the photographer - sorry.

If you're interested, you can revisit the event and check out the salient points of the attack in Auckland at http://library.christchurch.org.nz/Chil … r.asp]THIS SITE.

SpaceNut · 2005-05-27 11:28:45

Kenya scientists plant trial GMO pest-proof maize

So its not a mars food just yet but with the right research anything is possible.

While we will not have pests on mars initially, there is the chance if full growth plants are brought that such a thing could occur.

Palomar · 2005-05-27 12:36:01

Two apologies, Cindy!
Firstly, for allowing the reference to Greenpeace to get me off-topic; this thread is nothing to do with it, I know, and I shouldn't have digressed.

:hm:

The Greenpeace interjection into this has been interesting. No need to apologize.

I'm glad Rik brought that organization up (as referenced in a previous post), as I'd not considered how they (and other similar orgs) might react.

--Cindy

P.S.: And, again, there -is- another potential issue at stake: What if Greenpeace were to begin protesting about the Martian environment as regards "designer plants"? And on what basis could/would they do this?

Rxke · 2005-05-27 13:12:59

Back-contamination of course.
And they would have a point. Anything that succeeds on Mars, might find Earth ecosphere paradise and multiply like crazy.

BTW (and going off-topic) Greenpeace extremists? AFAIK they don't try to kill or injure people, they're more of the 'screaming for attention' kind of org, I'd say... And I'm just too lazy to go to the bank and cancel my subscription, Greenpeace is semi-ok in my book, but some stuff I do not agree with them at all.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-27 18:43:26

Rik:-

Back-contamination of course.
And they would have a point. Anything that succeeds on Mars, might find Earth ecosphere paradise and multiply like crazy.

Hmmm, yes. That's essentially the same point which is often raised with regard to back contamination by indigenous Martian beasties - the 'tough hungry critters from Mars' hypothesis! Except, in this case, they'd be man-made critters.
But is it really a logical fear?
Isn't it true that organisms which are highly specialized to cope with a certain environment do badly when taken out of that environment? Any plants designed to do well in an oxygen-free/CO2 atmosphere, for example, are reminiscent of the cyanobacteria and other anaerobic organisms which flourished on Earth before the rise of O2 levels in our air. Now those organisms' populations have declined since their heyday and they hide away in oxygen-poor ecological niches.
Why would a plant, designed to live in extreme cold on Mars, do well in the comparatively stifling hot conditions of Earth?
Is it not true that a plant which thrives in the ecological desert of Mars, with virtually no competition from other plants, and with no predatory pathogens to invade it, would rapidly succumb to the survival warfare evident among life forms here on Earth?

Just because an organism does well in an environment we might call 'tough', doesn't necessarily make that organism 'tough' in any universal sense. A polar bear is one tough customer in northern Canada but, if you were to put that polar bear in the hot humid swamplands of equatorial Africa, for example, I suspect it would keel over and die very quickly!
I think it's all just a matter of what you're used to.
No? ???

dicktice · 2005-05-28 18:00:45

One more reason for endorsing the use of LEO space platforms: As quarantine stations between Earth and Mars--or wherever else such tailor-made plants proliferate.

SpaceNut · 2005-07-12 09:34:11

Then on mars how to tell when the greenhouse produce is ready for consumption with out wasting it when it is not ready.

Apple Quality’s More Than Skin Deep

Each fall for the past 3 years, Renfu Lu has gone into Michigan orchards, picked fruit off the trees, and tasted hundreds of apples and peaches—without taking a single bite. How did he do it? With a futuristic technology called imaging spectroscopy, or multispectral imaging, that uses laser beams to detect the sweetness and firmness of fruit.

Rxke · 2005-07-12 10:15:04

a futuristic technology called imaging spectroscopy, or multispectral imaging

Wow. That's considered futuristic? ???

Palomar · 2005-07-12 10:17:27

Then on mars how to tell when the greenhouse produce is ready for consumption with out wasting it when it is not ready.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/m … .htm]Apple Quality’s More Than Skin Deep
Each fall for the past 3 years, Renfu Lu has gone into Michigan orchards, picked fruit off the trees, and tasted hundreds of apples and peaches—without taking a single bite. How did he do it? With a futuristic technology called imaging spectroscopy, or multispectral imaging, that uses laser beams to detect the sweetness and firmness of fruit.

*Seems a bit time-consuming to me (understatement). Unless they develop a method of rolling fruit down a conveyor belt, automatically sizing them up via the laser, and rejects are pushed off the belt. I wonder what the organic crowd would have to say about this.

Seems like more rigamarole than anything...

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-07-12 11:08:43

The objective of testing them is to not pick them before there time, as a means to not be wasteful in that we would have to discard it as rubbish. The benefit is that we could feed more people from the crop by not picking it before it is ripe.

Palomar · 2005-07-12 11:34:02

The objective of testing them is to not pick them before there time, as a means to not be waistful in that we would have to discard it as rubbish. The benefit is that we could feed more people from the crop by not picking it before it is ripe.

*That too, but they're also analyzing the fruit after plucking.

When commercialized, Lu’s optical sensor would be used by the fruit industry to sort fruit just after it’s been picked. He’s built a larger version fitted into a mini-packing line for lab use. It’s a prototype for a machine that would be used on fruit-processing lines to make a second quality check after some time had passed and the fruit had been handled.

Hey, if it works, more power to 'em of course.

Peaches easier to work with than apples, huh? Not surprising...since peaches are yummier! Teehee.

“But our system tests every single fruit...

I wonder how long it'd take to go through, say, 300 pounds of peaches with this method (on a conveyor belt type of setup, of course). ???

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-08-26 08:19:03

Reaping The Fruits Of Their Labor Will Keep The New Martians Heatlthy

After a dry, dusty day exploring Mars, it's easy to imagine how delicious a fresh baked potato or steamed carrots might taste to a hardworking astronaut.
Homegrown vegetables would not only be a nice alternative to freeze dried meals, but they'd help provide a constant supply of food for exploration crews while on the planet.

Article goes into the relm of UV light damage and need for greenhouse of inflatable kind.

Rxke · 2005-08-26 15:50:01

Good article, eh?

But a bit disturbing that it shows how little has been done already...

Judging from the article seems like they had to start from all-but square one, and this doesn't seem to be exactly megamillions rocket-science...

I'd thought these things had been done ages ago already. Sigh. This is stuff I think up when falling asleep, for Flying Spaghetti Monstersake!

On the bright side: grassroots (pardon ze pun) research like this will produce a veritable goldmine of new data, so 99,9% chances they come up with interesting stuff, hence more funding, hence more research....

srmeaney · 2005-08-30 04:20:55

How about a fiberglass hottub in the greenhouse, fill the bottom with gravel and soil and grow reeds. They take in CO2 and exhale into the water the O2 needed for waterlife to survive. That way we can have fish, frogs, snails, waterbeetles...

SpaceNut · 2005-10-25 20:08:19

Brining plants and maybe even some animals are not only needed for survival, cost reduction but also must be fleshed out for the process of teraforming as well.

Plants redesigned to live in outer space

Some of the stresses inherent with travel and life in space -- extreme temperatures, drought, radiation and gravity -- are not easily remedied with traditional plant defenses.
North Carolina State University researchers are reportedly looking deep under water for clues on how to redesign plants for life deep in outer space.
Transfer beneficial characteristics from a sea-dwelling, single-celled organism called Pyrococcus furiosus into model plants, such as tobacco and Arabidopsis, or mustard weed.
P. furiosus is a microbe that can survive in extreme temperatures. It grows and dwells in underwater sea volcanoes where temperatures reach that of boiling water. It also can survive in near freezing deep-sea water.

The study of what makes these unique spicies able to survive is only part of the question thou and the other is how did this come to be or did life not start where we have been lead to believe?

noosfractal · 2005-10-25 20:35:40

P. furiosus is a microbe that can survive in extreme temperatures. It grows and dwells in underwater sea volcanoes where temperatures reach that of boiling water. It also can survive in near freezing deep-sea water.
... how did this come to be ...

Natural selection couldn't do the job?
.

John Creighton · 2005-10-25 20:40:32

P. furiosus is a microbe that can survive in extreme temperatures. It grows and dwells in underwater sea volcanoes where temperatures reach that of boiling water. It also can survive in near freezing deep-sea water.
... how did this come to be ...
Natural selection couldn't do the job?
.

I think the bigger question is what about the biology allows it to survive. For instance some plants and animals produce a natural antifreeze to help deal with cold temperatures.

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