New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2004-06-01 12:51:47

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Some years there was some experiment in the US with a closed enverioment (I forgot the name) but they had some problems. One being that the concrete would asorb the oxygen. But this can be overcome. Another but less talked about is that the scientist were going crazy for some junk food. They were sick of eating the habitats made food.

How are humans on Mars going to deal with this? As being one of the first on Mars makes you a: astronaut, sciencetist, construction worker and a farmer. All at once. Thats a lot of work.


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

Offline

#2 2004-06-01 13:28:31

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

You're referring to Biosphere 2 if I'm not mistaken. Astronauts on a Mars mission have one crucial advantage over the biosphere crew. Biosphere was idealogically motivated and absolutely insistent on a totally closed system. Mars astronauts will have no such limitation. Grow some food on site in greenhouses, but bring some pizza, twinkies, etc as well.

The real question comes when the missions cease to be limited scientific stays but become colonization efforts. In such a case alot of our standard fare won't be around in any appreciable quantity. Pizza has potential, it shouldn't be too difficult to make bread and grow tomatos once greenhouses are established. As for cheese... Take some goats.  big_smile After awhile that would also allow for a reasonable fascimile of a hamburger. :;):  As opposed to that soy-based stuff I'm sure would be making the rounds.

I'm only half-joking about the goats. If we're going to colonize we're going to have to bring animals over eventually.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Offline

#3 2004-06-01 18:34:27

RobS
Banned
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Even with a colony, you'll have an import quota for junk food. Maybe it'll be small. A store could sell chocolate bars for $500 each. The Russians always bring vodka on their flights, so I suppose no one will be grudge a little Haagan-Dasz.

        -- RobS (writing from Europe; won't be on much this month)

Offline

#4 2004-06-01 21:58:54

Gennaro
Member
From: Eta Cassiopeiae (no, Sweden re
Registered: 2003-03-25
Posts: 591

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Speaking about vegetables, I thought the Mars Greenhouse was primarily for testing the feasibilty of Mars grown crops. No one seriously believe such a small acreage could sustain an entire crew, do we?

Biosphere 2 was primarily symbolic of the belated collapse of the naturalist world view, in my opinion. Good riddance. Bring on the freeze dried McTasty's!

Offline

#5 2004-06-13 03:00:35

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

I think Biosphere II did learn us quite a few interesting things, failure of a project can be very educational, too...

To be honest, i never understood all the BII bashing, probably i missed the 'ideology debates' and only saw the science done...

Like:
-The atmospheric scrubbers: they found out that 'just' pumping air into the soil cleansed it sufficiently and very efficiently (CO2 sequestration etc) in the (probably) short run. (I guess in the long run the pH of the soil would become too high etc...)
-Likewise their setbacks/successes with the 'ocean' and 'scum-scrubbers'... A lot of engineering knowledge amassed.
-Their nicely ordered 'biomes' starting to intermingle, getting to an unforeseen hodge-podge before stabilising,
-and the psychological/sociological stuff... Crewmembers stealing food at night from the pantry, when harvest was bad...

A lot of that stuff could be very valuable on mid-size to large habitats on other planets. If they'd do another 'mission' and allowing to import gases, certain elements semi real-time and infrequent imports of ordered stuff with a six-month delay, thus emulating a 'true' big-scale Mars mission, with external virtual atmosphere and soil harvesting factories, it would be a very valuable place to shake-down some life-support, food 'generating' designs, IMO... But they'd be able to do some simulated EVA's too, to test suit design and ATV's, in order not to go completely bonkers inside!  big_smile

Offline

#6 2004-06-13 10:22:36

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

I doubt that the crews will be making their own food in any quantity for quite some time because of all the man-hours it would take, the mass required to haul the domes/hydroponics/etc, and lets not forget the biggie... energy to keep them warm on frozen Mars.

So it looks like the best way to avoid some of the BS-II and other psychological issues is simply to have the capacity to bring more and better food to Mars such that the crew has variety and plenty to eat, at least in the short run for early flights.

One of the things that gives me doubts about MarsDirect is the lack of signifigant mass margins... everything is cut pretty close to the bone already, and I worry that if there is much weight creep that one of the quick/cheap solutions will be to cut back on crew mass allotments... A nuclear rocket engine in place of the Ares upper stage would help quite a bit.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#7 2004-06-14 15:21:55

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

http://www.yvesveggie.com]Yves is one brand of soy products. "Good Slices" is their brand of casein-soy products that are a very good imitation of cheese. They also have veggie pizza pepperoni (look under deli slices). Bottom line is you can make pizza without farm animals.

I had suggested a chloroplast based life support system that would produce carbohydrate as a byproduct. The starch and pectin can be fermented. Starch, pectin, and yeast form a synthetic form of the Hawian food poi. It may have almost no flavour (yeast gives it a little flavour), but it is a substitute for potatoes that can be made on the spacecraft. The device would be small enough to be part of the life support system and operate unattended. Carrying that much less starchy food provides mass budget to carry more luxury foods.

Offline

#8 2004-06-14 16:41:58

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

With all these little limited-use addons to the LSS to make specific foods, you have to be careful, there is very little extra mass and even less extra pressurized volume to go around, making a long wishlist of extra hardware may lead to trouble. They all need to be "weighed" against a purely chemical system, which does not rely on any living material that could die, and simply packing more high-end MREs.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#9 2004-06-14 17:27:02

~Eternal~
Member
Registered: 2003-09-25
Posts: 211

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Who says we can't have pizza!
All we need is a Cow, Wheat, and Tomatoes.


The MiniTruth passed its first act #001, comname: PATRIOT ACT on  October 26, 2001.

Offline

#10 2004-06-15 06:37:41

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

... Maybe a few mushrooms, olives, a little ham, some capsicums ...
                                             tongue


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#11 2004-06-15 06:40:51

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Food may be a problem as Mars astronauts will probably burn more energy then those on a space station as Mars astronauts will have to explore and move a lot.

So you may want some high energy food.


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

Offline

#12 2004-06-15 13:32:22

DERF
Member
From: Kingston, Ontario
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 39

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

It's really sad that we need to go to all sorts of lengths to ensure that astronauts have...I geuss I'll say it..."Happy Meals". Is it possible to just bring along some high-power, high-concentration flavour powder that makes it just taste like the real thing? All you have to do is close your eyes.

Offline

#13 2004-06-15 16:16:01

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Unfortunatly the human pallet is a little more sensitive then that. smile

We chemist folk are working on playing your taste buds like a piano, but we aren't that good yet.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#14 2004-06-16 08:47:53

C M Edwards
Member
From: Lake Charles LA USA
Registered: 2002-04-29
Posts: 1,012

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Between the Hab and ERV, the amount of food being sent to Mars in a Mars Direct Mission profile is already 3 to 5 tons.  That could be enough extra mass to justify an extra module.

The Mars Direct Mission profile could be expanded to include three modules:

First the ERV arrives and begins propellant production.  Second, a Pizza Hut lands nearby and begins advertising their $12.99 special.  Third, the HAB module arrives...

cool

(Note: The HAB should include a rover, enabling traverse, pickup, and delivery.)


"We go big, or we don't go."  - GCNRevenger

Offline

#15 2004-06-16 09:14:19

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

(Note: The HAB should include a rover, enabling traverse, pickup, and delivery.)

Pizza Hut will not deliver?


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

Offline

#16 2004-06-16 12:03:23

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Life support has two very different applications. The spacecraft must be very compact, in both volume and mass. Any volume must be protected by heat shield during atmospheric entry so extra volume translates to extra heat shield mass.

That's why I suggested the chloroplast life support system. It's simple, small, and as low mass as the system on ISS. It uses sunlight directly for converting H2O and CO2 into O2 and carbohydrate. Pea chloroplasts are the easiest to get, and pea carbohydrate is 60% starch, 40% pectin. A fermenting vat and its associated distillery to separate ethanol and purify water will add some mass, but it means less mass of food you must bring. A paste of starch, pectin, and yeast may be bland but it would provide the high energy food. Yeast adds protein, minerals, and the complete vitamin B complex.

On Mars things are different. You can afford any amount of mass or volume, have a stable ground upon which to build a greenhouse, gravity, and resources like water, atmosphere and soil. You can build a greenhouse to grow many different crops for a variety of food.

Offline

#17 2004-06-16 12:22:17

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Ok but is you used chloroplast in real life? You can't send astronauts to some distance planet with untested systems.


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

Offline

#18 2004-06-16 14:02:21

DERF
Member
From: Kingston, Ontario
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 39

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

"untested systems"...how about:

It seems that there needs to be a lot of infrastructure in the way of food neccesary to even allow humans to inhabit Mars comfortably. What about sending in advance all the pieces to start a decent farm. Starting with simpler plants, and then working out the bugs and moving on to more complex plants as the technique becomes more refined. (seeds for the difficult to manage plants can be stored in some way until neccesary) This could be an ongoing base on Mars to test the feasibility of different technologies with NO RISK TO HUMANS, while benifiting the potential for human exploration significantly.

Of course it could be run by robots, and would generate more press than the even the current ones which, let's be honest here, take pictures of rocks.

After at least a decade of the project (and possibly more landing and rendezvous on the surface) then it is possible that there will be a sufficiently large and varied infrastructure to support and satisfy the "picky human pallete".

The beauty of this is that it could start at the level of simplicity and scale of the current Mars Rovers - possibly only 4-10 m^2 at the start. And since nothing is consuming the food, all dead matter will be directly re-composted and put back in.

VISUAL: In the foreground, a 15 cm tall vividly green pea plant stands in a small plastic bubble, in stark contrast to the arid red landscape that surrounds it.

Offline

#19 2004-06-16 14:46:33

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Mmmmm I don't like it... a chloroplast or other bio-based CLSS system suffer from a weak link in the chain... that the living material it is based on has to suvive in order for the system to work. What if the pea plants die for a variety of reasons... radiation, microbiologic contaminant, air leak, lack of CO2, water leak, bad hydroponic solution, extreme cold, extreme heat, management system malfunction...

Ultimatly, I think that trusting in one or two spacecraft to keep a crew alive for three years solid without the protection of the Van Allen belts or Earth's shadow is hazardous enough as it is. Machines quite simply can take much more punishment than a biological system can... There is a major solar flare, or a vent valve held open too long, or a nasty germ - now free of competition - stowed away in the plant foot... the little pea plant dies, and the crew is doomed to a slow death.

Reliability first, elegence and efficency second

In any event, I don't think there will be much use for a high-energy powderd food really... It is quite important for the astronauts to keep well fed, this is not a trivial thing, these people won't eat a single meal for three to five years solid except what is brought or grown, and the superior range or quality of food that can be packaged and shipped from Earth will be essential to maintain morale. Submarine crews, who stay a mere three months under water, get far better food than any other service because it helps keep them sane and working best cooped up in that atomic tin can.

Now as for a robot farm, I don't think you fully appritiate how hard it is to farm or how much pressurized and climate controlled volume you need. I don't know if a robot could do it at all, much less be really effective at it, and the minimum size for all the equipment (large power source & storage, gas handling, high bandwidth uplink, liquid/solid storage, pyrolosis unit, possibly solar concentrator/reflector, light-duty radiation shield) is going to get Minivan sized quite quickly.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#20 2004-06-16 18:39:54

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

The chloroplast idea is to use isolated, in-vitro chloroplasts. Photosynthesis is 6 CO2 + 6 H2O -> 6 O2 + 1 C6H12O6. That last large molecule is a mono-saccharide, a simple sugar. Simple sugars are polymerized to form carbohydrates, an H from one simple sugar and an OH group from the other are released to form a water molecule. There are no other chemicals input or output from the system. The chemical intermediates are large and complex, but they are recirculated.

Undergraduate lab experiments with isolated chloroplasts work, but they only last 20 minutes. There are several known problems with this:
1) UV light damages protein so the window letting in sunlight must be filtered to remove UV. That is technically known as a spectrally selective coating or treatment, commercially known as Heat Mirror or Low-e because it reflects most of IR light as well as 98% of UV. Since it's commercially available now, it's simple.
2) Chloroplasts must be protected from being consumed by bacteria or mould, so keep it in sterile water in a sealed plastic bag. Chloroplasts do have a plasmid and 85% of the genes from cyanobacteria, so they also have to be protected from viruses that infect bacteria, called phages or bactereophages. So filter the water with a reverse osmosis filter before injecting it into the bag, like a giant Brita filter. Again, commercially available.
3) The most important thing to extend the viability of in-vitro chloroplasts is to protect them from oxygen. A high O2:CO2 ratio will cause one enzyme that's supposed to combine CO2 with an intermediate to break down that intermediate. Specifically, ribulose diphosphate carboxylase will cause ribulose diphosphate to combine with oxygen to form phosphogylocate and 3-phosphoglycolate instead of two molecules of 3-phosphoglycolate. This removes ribulose disphosphate from the cycle; without the metabolism of the rest of the leaf cell to regenerate ribulose diphosphate, it will run out. When it does photosynthesis will stop. The solution is to keep the ratio of O2:CO2 low. In a lab experiment that means isolating chloroplasts from air in a fume hood filled with pure CO2. On the spacecraft that means carbonating the water in the bags that hold chloroplasts. Carbonating water is the same process for making soda pop: bubble CO2 through water under pressure. Again, it's simple and commercially proven.

Chloroplast bags will not last forever, but hopefully will last several months. They can be stored in liquid nitrogen, and thawed when replacements are necessary. Once a colony is established on Mars they can grow pea plants in greenhouses to make replacement chloroplasts.

Fermenting means growing yeast; that means growing a whole organism so its nutritional requirements are more complex. Yeast requires nitrogen and phosphorus in a form it can metabolize, as well as trace elements. The usual yeast nutrient for home-brew wine or beer is di-ammonium phosphate. That provides nitrogen and phosphorus, and requires 1 teaspoon per gallon fermented. Ash from incinerated feces provide trace elements.

Offline

#21 2004-06-16 19:16:04

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

It still sounds pretty complicated and pretty flimsy to me...

-Radiation protection? What will you do if there is a solar flare? The stuff will only be sheets-of-glass away from the full brunt of the Sun's fury.

-Large windows + TransHab = Impractical

-High water purity requirements, danger of accidental microbiologic contamination causing failure of LSS

-Difficulty of separating CO2 from O2 in cabin to avoid adding excess O2 to chloroplast tank water during CO2 injection

-Very exacting thermal and chemical requirements, low or no tollerance for out-of-spec operation, narrow specs at that.

An all-chemical system for spacecraft and early Mars colonies is an absolute nessesitty, or at least the capacity to complete the mission and return before supplies stored run out.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#22 2004-06-16 20:11:53

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Intense radiation from a solar flare or coronal mass ejection is rare. Spare chloroplast bags can be thawed to replace them. Normal radiation protection is the same as for astronauts. Water purity is only drinking water that is further filtered via reverse osmosis. The water recycling system already uses several reverse osmosis filters. CO2 has to be removed from cabin air to avoid poisoning astronauts. That is currently done with a reusable sorbent, but instead of dumping CO2 in space it would be pressurized with a pump and injected. Thermal requirements are the same as astronauts, just keep it in the cabin.

This system uses the same reusble CO2 scrubbers and water recycling system as that developed for the US habitation module for ISS. The difference is replacing the water electrolysis system and sabatier reactor with chloroplast bags and a CO2 pump. Electrolysis takes a lot of power, chloroplasts use sunlight directly. The yeast system is just a bonus; it produces protein, lipids and vitamin B. The water recycling system for the US habitation module already has a feces incinerator to extract water.

The practicality of this system depends on the viability period of in-vitro chloroplasts. If it's long enough the food produced will give a mass saving, replacement chloroplast bags will mass less than stored food. Smaller solar panels are also a factor. Proving the viability period of isolated in-vitro chloroplasts is the key. I've been trying to get bio-lab access. Isolating chloroplasts and demonstrating photosynthesis is a well established lab excercise; the difference is doing it in a fume hood or better yet a sealed glove box filled with CO2. Are there any biochemistry students reading this message?

Offline

#23 2004-06-16 22:30:19

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

Ah, they are rare but are you willing to take that risk? If a dozen missions spread over a decade are flown using the chloroplast LSS system before an advanced nuclear engine is available, thats alot of time to assume that a solar flare isn't going to happen.

I'm still not thinking you are catching my concern... that living things, particularly things like chloroplasts, are inherintly fragile from an engineering probability standpoint, that as a device that bag of bugs cannot withstand much damage at all and hence has a high probability of failure versus a metal machine. In this respect, the regular "big iron" machine is clearly preferable even if it is less energy efficent, which won't be a big problem with a nuclear reactor.

"Simply replacing" is another idea I don't like... so if the bag of bugs dies, how long do you have before you HAVE to have another one working? Having two units entirely redundant adds weight/complexity and wouldn't reduce the failure probability to comfortable levels by my recconing, which wouldn't do you any good either if they were both hit by lethal radiation.

And how many of these bags do you need to maintain even this low level of reliability? How well do the bags keep in a solar flare? The storm cellar will have to be kept very small to have reasonable mass if one is included, as I think it should, especially if the astronauts will be sleeping in it to lower radiation dose.

My issue with purity isn't so much with the water purification system as other possible sources of contamination. A few airborne spores in the bag before freeze-drying, a flight engineer sneezing on the pipes, that sort of thing... Such a system is sensitive to the smallest error in clenliness during packing or operation, which I think presents an unessesarry hazard versus simply going with machines. Switching bags if there is somthing in the plumbing would simply ruin another bag, and so on too.

I'm also dubious of the mass savings of food that such a system would provide... tasteless powder is simply of limited worth even if it were free because people won't want to eat it. This is the same mindset of the Biosphere-II project, to make the people endure too much for the sake of the mission, and its a losing proposition on a three-year mission 20,000,000mi from home. The people we send will be strung out enough as it is, much less trying to make somthing of equivilent quality out of pea-meal.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

#24 2004-06-16 22:44:48

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

As far as collecting sunlight in space, why do you need big windows?

Inflate a large properly curved solar collector and position it with the focal point being at a small opening in your spacecraft heading into a light tube.

My wife and I are thinking about using "solatubes" in our next house and they appear to work just fine. Reflection percentages are well above 90%, IIRC.

As the light enters the spacecraft it exists at many times the "natural" light levels for the distance from the sun. Diffuse the concentrated sunlight with more mirrors and let the plants grow in reflected light. Add UV filters to the light tubes.

= = =

I have long wondered about fabricating the interior of a TransHab with materials that break down contaminants in the presence of UV.

If a TransHab were "wired" with light tubes an external solar collector might concentrate enough UV to sterilize a compartment from fungus, molds and the like. The crew leaves the compartment in question, you seal it up and flood it with UV for 12 hours.

http://www.canren.gc.ca/tech_appl/index … ID=279]One link

Offline

#25 2004-06-16 22:57:32

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Pizza's!! - How are you going to deal with it?

The big reasons are large volume, orientation sensitivity, and complexity such a setup would add. Windows are simple, solar-tubes and mirrors and tracking drives and mirror supports and mirror frames... are not.

As for sterilization of a whole cabin by UV light, why in the world would you not simply use a powerful anticeptic gas? It would reach every surface, every inch of pressurized volume, every shadowed nook and cranny... hey, the gas schema killed the anthrax in the congressional office building and mail centers. Far far simpler and much more effective.

You can't really "flood" anything with light either, because it would never touch everything, things that are shadowed for instance, for spot sterilization a UV-lamp "wand" powerd by electricity would be much much safer and easier than cutting holes in the side of the space ship for solar tubes!


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB