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#26 2005-08-16 07:34:06

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Russian space shuttle's launch set for 2011

The first unmanned flight of Russia's Clipper space shuttle has been set for 2011, and the first manned flight has been scheduled for 2012, a senior official from Russia's leading space company told the Delovoy Vtornik (Business Tuesday) weekly.

Nothing new other than the time frame....

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#27 2005-08-16 17:11:44

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The question is, which launch vehicle will Kliper ride on?  Zenit is mentioned most frequently, but it's not "man rated" and it's not favored by the Russians because it's built in the Ukraine.  Onega is an option, but where is the money to fund the new upper stage?  Angara is a third choice, but that rocket is stranded in development and funding woes that may not be resolved until after 2008.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#28 2005-08-16 19:11:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

European experts may design cockpit of Russian spacecraft

Talks on the issue are under way, but the final decision must be made at the council of ESA member states at the end of this year," said Nikolai Sevastyanov, the head of the Energia Rocket and Space Corporation.

edit:
another source Russia’s shuttle reloaded

050816_kliper_hmed.hlarge.jpg

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#29 2005-08-17 21:33:45

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Kliper, new and improved with winglets.  They improve the craft's looks but add dead weight.  I'm assuming that the original, pure cone shape didn't give the engineers the low-speed handling qualities they wanted.  Maybe the wings are just for show on this mockup.  We'll see, come 2010 or so when Kliper is supposed to fly.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#30 2005-08-17 21:59:33

Commodore
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From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Those will snap off like twigs if it comes down at the wrong angle.

And you'll probably grind off the heat shield too regardless of how it comes down.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#31 2005-08-17 22:43:01

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Those will snap off like twigs if it comes down at the wrong angle.

And you'll probably grind off the heat shield too regardless of how it comes down.

Look how there shaped. What would be the wrong angle? Upside down? Perhaps the wings are necessary so it can land like a plane. They are pretty small so I don't think they will add that much weight. Also the wings are in fairly tight to the body and back far. I wonder if this will protect them some to allow higher reentry velocities then most winged vehicles. I am looking forward to see what this thing can do.

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#32 2005-08-17 23:29:06

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Kliper has evolved into something that closely resembles the old X-20 (which I am very fond of.)  Recent statements from Russian space officials (which should be greeted with some skepticism) indicate that Kliper will indeed land on runways.  Perhaps a parafoil will be used.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#33 2005-08-18 00:05:04

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Speaking of x planes, here is a link containing pictures of a bunch of them:
http://www.boeing.com/phantom/xplanesdt.html
It appears that the fastest x plane is the x-37 capable of reaching Mach 25. Like the clipper it has a relatively small wing in comparison to the body. It kind of looks like a cruise missile. The wings on the clipper look even more protected and tighter to the body. Perhaps the clipper will be capable of higher speeds. I am not sure how fast entry is from lunar orbit. Probably too fast for the clipper without using some fuel to break.  I wonder if the x-37 would have been capable of a runway landing. If so it might have been a good shape for a flyback booster.

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#34 2005-08-18 09:51:24

SpaceNut
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

just another angle of view
news_img_2329148_0006.jpg

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#35 2005-08-18 11:00:50

Commodore
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From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Is that a Buran in the backround?


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#36 2005-08-18 11:12:03

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

A scale model maybe... looks kinda small?

Translunar velocities are in excess of Mach-30, too fast for anything with wings.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#37 2005-08-18 11:13:33

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

*Just now following this thread.  I saw an article at spaceflightnow.com and it piqued my interest (someone else has already posted a similar article, so I'll defer).

YL Rocket quoted this in a post he made:

Kliper (Clipper), the brainchild of Russian space corporation RKK Energia, is sketched as a successor to the venerable Cold War workhorse of space, the Soyuz capsule.

Dicktice hasn't yet posted in this thread.  I recall he's a great fan of Soyuz.  Dicktice, if you happen to read this, would you care to comment?  I'm curious for your opinion on the Clipper.

And I must say (sorry)...it is sort of cute.  wink

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#38 2005-08-18 11:48:51

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posts: 2,401
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

A scale model maybe... looks kinda small?

Translunar velocities are in excess of Mach-30, too fast for anything with wings.

The x-37 can reach speeds of Mach 25 and the wings on the clipper look more protected. Why does that extra Mach 5 make so much difference?

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#39 2005-08-18 11:53:42

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The extra velocity means the difference between RCC heat shield material (like on Shuttle, X-37, and Clipper) from vaporizing or not. Graphite is unusual in that it has very high temperature resistance, but if you get it too high - POOF! It sublimates instantly all at once when that threshold is crossed. And that is the very best non-ablative passive heat shield material available.

Its just not possible to protect a vehicle with pointy noses or narrow protrustions from the massive heat.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#40 2005-08-18 19:49:06

Ad Astra
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Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

John:

The X-37 was supposed to have been launched to orbit by the shuttle or Delta IV, hence the "mach 25" top speed.  It would have re-entered with the nose at a steep angle of attack, and the underside of the fuselage would provide the lift.  The twin, canted rudders ensure yaw and stability at these high angles of attack.  The tiny wings become useful once the X-37 has slowed to subsonic speed.

Will X-37's shape be a good candidate for a flyback booster?  It's got the subsonic approach and landing qualities, but the vehicle's fuselage is too short and stubby to be a good booster during the ascent phase.  It would have a lot of drag compared to a rocket with a similar propellant volume.  The design is optimized for re-entry.

Short-span, long-chord delta wings on the X-20 and Kliper reduce drag at high speeds but aren't very effective on approach and landing.  In this case, mach 25 vs. mach 30 is irrelevant.  I don't expect Kliper to ever be used for trans-lunar re-entries.  It will burn up like a piece of newspaper.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#41 2005-08-19 08:25:53

SpaceNut
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

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#42 2005-08-23 05:41:50

Palomar
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From: USA
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Click

Russia Invites China's 1st Spaceman To Moon Flight

Moscow (XNA) Aug 23, 2005

The Russian Federal Space Agency (Roskosmos) on Friday invited China's first spaceman, Yang Liwei, to make a space flight to the moon aboard the promising Russian Kliper shuttle, the Itar-Tass news agency reported.

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#43 2005-08-23 11:04:47

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Click

Russia Invites China's 1st Spaceman To Moon Flight

Moscow (XNA) Aug 23, 2005

The Russian Federal Space Agency (Roskosmos) on Friday invited China's first spaceman, Yang Liwei, to make a space flight to the moon aboard the promising Russian Kliper shuttle, the Itar-Tass news agency reported.

--Cindy

Hmmm....maybe we are wrong and the clipper could go to the moon and back.

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#44 2005-08-23 12:38:02

Rxke
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From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Maybe the new batch of bootleg Wodka proved particularly tasty, this year!

lol

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#45 2005-08-23 13:24:36

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Maybe the new batch of bootleg Wodka proved particularly tasty, this year!

lol

Maybe they will have two versions. One with a rounder nose and no wings for returning from the moon and one with a pointer nose and stubby wings for returning from the ISS. It looks so close to a capsule that perhaps redundancies can be found in engineering and manufacturing to easily support two slightly different vehicles.

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#46 2005-08-23 17:32:26

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Make no doubt about it that Russia has a realitic plan to go to the moon.  However, the ship of choice will be the venerable Soyuz (docked to a new rocket stage,) and it will transport American "capitalist pigs."

Soyuz was Korolev's moon ship; the Zond variant would have flown around the moon (it succeeded in this feat in unmanned flights,) and the LOK version would have docked with the LK lander on the admittedly-dangerous Soviet moon mission.

With Space Adventures offering Russia cold, hard cash, the Soyuz translunar mission is back on the table, as long as Americans are willing to fork over some serious money.  If the initial flights should succeed, perhaps the Russians would try to resurrect the LK.  A different launcher will be needed, though--N1 was hopelessly complex.  Perhaps an earth-orbit rendezvous mission using multiple Soyuz or Onega rockets would do the job.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#47 2005-08-25 12:51:08

publiusr
Banned
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Kliper:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/re … nshut.html
http://www.space.com/news/050824_clipper.html
China kliper
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-05zzzzzzf.html

I keep hearing rumors about five meter upper stages for Proton, Ariane...

Any images of the Parom tug from www.spacenews.ru ?

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#48 2005-08-25 13:36:18

publiusr
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From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

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#49 2005-08-25 20:08:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Klipper article translation:
25.08.2005

The value of "clipper" grows on passed in the Moscow city Zhukovskiy THE VII aerospace salon MAX -2005 deserved interest it generated development RKK "energy" of reusable spacecraft "clipper". The Director-General of the design bureau of transport machine building (KBTM) Aleksey gonchar expressed the opinion that over the long term aboard the new Russian spacecraft "clipper" completely it is possible to carry out special evacuation of entire numerous crew of international space station. True, in the case of realization by Russia project "ground-based start". As noted from its side the deputy chief federal'ny of the space agency Of n.F.Moiseyev, realized now the design of the commercial starting from Baikonur of carrier rockets "Zenith- M" as the version it examines equipping new Russian reusable spacecraft "clipper". the "modernization of launching system for the carriers" zenith "at the spaceport Baikonur, intended, first of all, under the realization of commercial starting, is examined by us as one of three versions for the starting and return of crew S", it, noted. International project "ground-based start", in which participate the leading Russian and Ukrainian enterprises in the rocket-space field, among which KBTM, RKK "energy", the design bureau "southern" and production association "yuzhmash", provides for the modernization of the existing in Baikonur launching system for the starting of the carrier rockets "Zenith- M", which work on ecologically clean components of propellant - kerosene and oxygen. As the carriers will be used the finished version of two-step carrier rockets "zenith -2" under the new name "zenith -2SLB", and also three-stage carrier rocket "zenith -3SLB". Specifically, on it it is possible to place in orbit new reusable spacecraft "clipper". Project "ground-based start" has high competitive ability. As confirmation that serves already concluded previously with company PanamSat contract to the launching of satellite PAS 11, which is planned to 1 quarter of 2007.

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#50 2005-08-31 12:14:44

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Moonshot engine to power spacecraft

An engine developed for Russia’s aborted manned lunar programme is to be used for the proposed Soyuz-3 launch vehicle for Moscow-based Energia’s six-crew Kliper spacecraft.

The Soyuz-3 consists of a core stage, several strap-on boosters referred to as the first stage, and an upper stage. It is the core stage that would use an NK-33 liquid oxygen/kerosene engine, developed for use on the first stage of the Soviet N-1 Moon Launch Vehicle.

Engines have been laying around since the 60's to early 1970s, but were never flown and a quantity of 70 are still in stock.

edit more updates:
USA and Europe offered Kliper outfitting contracts Negotiations opened for work on reusable spacecraft’s flightdeck and interior

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