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#1 2004-02-18 17:08:38

Ad Astra
Member
Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The Russians want to build a reusable six-man spacecraft to be launched by an uprated Soyuz rocket.  The rocket will be upgraded to Zenit-like performance and able to put the six-man, fourteen ton capsule into low earth orbit.

My guess is that the capsule will be a redux of their Zarya / Alpha Lifeboat / Super Soyuz.  This raises an interesting opportunity.  Although the Russians are probably unable to afford the new capsule, it would be fiscally responsible if an American firm cooperated with the Russians and produced this capsule as the proposed CEV.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#2 2004-02-18 21:05:15

Bill White
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Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The Russians want to build a reusable six-man spacecraft to be launched by an uprated Soyuz rocket.  The rocket will be upgraded to Zenit-like performance and able to put the six-man, fourteen ton capsule into low earth orbit.

My guess is that the capsule will be a redux of their Zarya / Alpha Lifeboat / Super Soyuz.  This raises an interesting opportunity.  Although the Russians are probably unable to afford the new capsule, it would be fiscally responsible if an American firm cooperated with the Russians and produced this capsule as the proposed CEV.

Iran nuclear cooperation remains a vexing political issue.

However, do this super-Soyuz project and then upgrade Kouru to man-rated and the Russians/ESA will dominate the humans to LEO market.

How much would each follow on Zarya module cost?

Zarya + TransHab + a new docking module with multiple ports able to accomodate Progress & Super Soyuz at the same time might make a fairly straightfoward space hotel. 4 or 5 guests sleep in TransHab and 1 or 2 crew sleep in Zarya.

Power via solar panel or electric power generation tether.

Tourist access via Soyuz or super-Soyuz from Kouru.

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#3 2004-02-18 22:17:34

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

For maximum versatility, the new capsule would be sized and designed to be launched on a multitude of boosters, from the uprated Soyuz rocket to the Ariane or EELV.  The Zarya capsule (in its Alpha lifeboat configuration) already had the necessary docking port to mate with ISS.  That's a good start, but the ship still needs some improvements.  I see no solar panels on the vehicle's service module; NASA has already said that they want solar instead of fuel cells for the CEV for safety reasons.  Also, the landing rockets were deemed to be an acoustic problem for the crew.  A crew escape system would also be neded, but I would assume that the Soyuz escape rocket could be scaled up.

Bill, you make a great point about space tourism.  Russia will undoubtedly have to consider the commercial prospects of their next spacecraft and probably adopt a business model that relies on orbital tourism to some degree for funding.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#4 2004-02-19 00:07:46

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

I don't see the Iran issue as a problem  here. Now it is forbidden for Gov. institutions to 'give' money to the Russians, but the tourist industry is just doing that, as a private company (Tito)
And the russian launchers are versatile enough, they even launch in frezing weather, thick smog etc... no need to accomodate for different launchers, would only cost a lot of money (Ariane is no man-rated, for starters)

If they had this new system, they could dock today, docking ports aplenty (at least 4, by last count)
And after the European ATV is in service, a lot of supply headaches are over too, only problem i see is sleep accomodation, but that is not such a big problem, you can sleep virtually everywhere in zero g, as long as you can strap yourself in. Currently some astronauts prefer to sleep in the US Lab...

But what about oxygen/co2 scrubbing capabilities?

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#5 2004-02-19 00:15:44

Bill White
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Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Guests sleep in TransHab, employees sleep in Zarya. Read about TransHab here.

Constance Adams is my current space hero(ine).

Buy the spare ISS-Zarya Russia already has laying around. Maybe get a deal. Add a docking port to accomodate multiple Soyuz / Progress / ATV etc. . .

Sorry Ad Astra for stealing your thread, yet super-Soyuz (capsule Zarya) would be an awesome vehicle to travel to/from such a facility.

Another Constance Adams link.

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#6 2004-02-20 13:51:37

Lars_J
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Registered: 2004-02-11
Posts: 82

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Bill White,

There are two Zarya projects that you may be confusing. We have:

A) The "Zarya" capsule - "Super-soyuz" replacement designed and cancelled in the 80's. Capable of 0-12 crew (12 in emergency lifeboat configuration), partly reusable. Lots of cargo capacity both up and down, so this craft (if built) would replace both Soyuz and Progress.[Information]
zaryagr.jpg

B) The ISS "Zarya" component. The FGB (first ISS component launched) was named "Zarya". A backup-unit exists that could be made spaceworthy. This seems to be what you are referring to, Bill.

This new Russian design sounds like a dust-off of the old Zarya capsule, which would not be a bad idea, since it looks like a good design. The big question is funding. Most likely this is another Russian vaporware announcement, but we can always hope for the best.

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#7 2004-02-20 14:54:47

Bill White
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Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

My hotel idea is based on the ISS-Zarya. A six man super-Soyuz Zarya could also be used as a possible vehicle to transport people to and from this hotel.

So both Zarya programs could perhaps be used.

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#8 2004-02-20 15:07:31

clark
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Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Maybe...  tongue  big_smile

"Step right up and win yourself a prize!"

You're brilliant Bill.  big_smile

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#9 2004-02-20 15:10:02

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

IIRC Russia is alread building/converting/dusting-off a module for private/commercial use... but i forgot who was footiing the bill...

Isn't it ironic? Former 'enemy of free enterprize' now the leader in commercial/tourist spaceflights  big_smile

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#10 2004-02-20 15:19:32

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

how much might Hyatt, Hilton or Marriott pay for the name and logo to the very first space hotel?

I can already see the ads...

'Spend a week in our new LEO SpaceHotel™!
be the star in a Hollywoodmovie while you're there!
experience the delight of being force-fed SpaceMacs™!
(Don't forget to use our extra-durable SpaceBarfBags™!
Free download of our Annoying SpaceRingTones™!"


errr... big_smile

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#11 2004-02-20 15:36:34

clark
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Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

"There's five star service, then there is service among the stars..."

Gives new meaning to the penthouse suite.

Start an ad campagain with the premise of, "Where have you been?"

Sell space passports for the kitch value. There's only one way to get that stamp.

I think we should call it Hotel California, but then I may be a bit biased.  big_smile

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#12 2004-02-20 16:13:52

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

I genuinely believe this idea for a space hotel might have a fighting chance at a profit, right from the start, but its based almost entirely on marketing.

Every parade has it's rain...

The idea is based on a few things that don't actually exsist quite yet, most notably an SDV, or routine sub-orbital, or orbital flights for human passengers.

I'ld pay to send a few people one-way to space, suitable habitat optional.  big_smile

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#13 2004-02-20 19:59:07

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Lars_J, I couldn't have said it better myself.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#14 2004-02-23 17:25:21

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Space Daily story

Pay particular attention to Gen. Koptiev's announcement at the end of the article, regarding the use of hydrogen in the upgraded Soyuz.  My feeling is that they'd add a liquid hydrogen upper stage, but they could do something radical and redesign the entire vehicle to burn hydrogen.  The only problem is that Soyuz is less than 3 m in diameter, while the Zarya capsule is over 4 m across.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#15 2004-02-24 14:32:59

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Astronautix link to Kliper or Clipper in English? Isn't this the new Russian spacecraft? Thanks to TL James at Louisiana Mars Society for posting this link, where I first saw it.

4 passengers and 2 crew? Perfect for travel to/from a space hotel.

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#16 2004-02-24 15:40:14

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,742
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Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The Kliper sounds good. A space taxi that makes regular trips to LEO should be reusable. The service module of traditional capsule designs have never been recoverable, the thermal stress and streaks of re-solidified ablative heat shield, as well as the physical shock on landing make capsules unreliable as reusable craft. A lifting body is more applicable for reusability. It may orient the deceleration force backward, astronauts facing forward so deceleration pushes them into their seatbelts, and this orientation makes an ejection seat difficult. However, the gentler G-force, lower temperature, and wheeled landing makes a lifting body much more reusable.

I noticed that NASA was planning to use X-38 as an emergency escape pod for ISS, but OSP was going to be a capsule. The vehicle that is attached to ISS and only used once in an emergency is a lifting body while a regular use space taxi is a capsule!? That's completely backwards. When I first saw X-38 I thought it was dumb because it used unnecessary and expensive new technology and the extra body mass for the lifting body together with larger heat shield to protect that larger mass were unnecessary if the vehicle was to be used only once. I thought X-38 was a good investment only if it was applied to a reusable space taxi: the OSP. But the contractors wanted brand-new money for that rather than completing (and scaling down to 4 crew) either the X-38 or HL-20.

Ack! Let the Russians build the Kliper while America sends another manned mission to the Moon. The Russian Soyuz has proven to be a reliable space taxi while Apollo was a reliable Moon vehicle. Each country is continuing to demonstrate the niche it won in the space race of the 1960's. I guess the lesson is that both countries have completely lost the ability to achieve anything new.

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#17 2004-02-24 18:05:57

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

A lift body as an escape vehicle would have one big obvious advantage, that it has gobs of cross-range compared to a capsule. The ability to glide for hundreds of miles is really nice when you have a highly inclined orbit that covers much of the Earth if you can't plan when you are going to deorbit... a capsule can't fly from the middle of the ocean to land, but a lift body could go for hundreds of miles with its hypersonic inertia.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#18 2004-02-24 19:58:58

infocat13
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Registered: 2003-10-28
Posts: 21

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

and we need a mini ISS in eqatrorial orbit anyhow.backup for on orbit assembly of outward bound CEV.

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#19 2004-02-24 20:04:35

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Nice link to the Kliper article.  The VVK capsule is an interesting solution to the re-entry problem, nesting a conventional aircraft inside an expendible spacecraft.  Perhaps the VVK aeroshell could be used for cargo-only missions to ISS.  I guess Zarya is ruled out due to both acoustic problems in the capsule and having a bigger diameter than its carrier rocket.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#20 2004-02-25 15:21:33

Lars_J
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Registered: 2004-02-11
Posts: 82

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

I guess Zarya is ruled out due to both acoustic problems in the capsule and having a bigger diameter than its carrier rocket.

"Zarya" would have been launched on Zenit, not the Soyuz booster, so that point is moot. Such a capsule could still be launched by the Zenit-3SL (used for launches on the converted oil rig), though... How cool would that be, to have a manned missions launched from a sea platform. smile

A 4m diameter capsule could also be used on the Angara-3 launcher - whenever it will fly.
----
The new Kliper information is interesting, but I would presume that they would be adding a payload shroud around it with an abort tower on top. I still doubt anything will happen with this project, though, since funding is sparse and some serious upgrade to the Soyuz launcher would be needed.

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#21 2004-02-25 15:46:57

Lars_J
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Registered: 2004-02-11
Posts: 82

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Here's some more images:
http://www.1tv.ru/img/20040224160742.GIF
http://www.kp.ru/upimg/logo_17242.jpg

These two images seem to imply that it would be launched facing forward, instead of backwards, as suggested by Astronautix.com.

Here some info from a Russian paper:
- 3m diameter
- 7m length
- 20 m^3 space
- 9800 kg launch mass
- emergency escape tower would be attached to nose during launch

EDIT: more images seen at space.com forum:
A graph illustrating cross-range ability
Simple 3d model of shape

EDIT again:
I knew the shape looked somewhat familiar - does the "Kipler" shape not look quite a bit like the McD X-33 concept? http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/x/x33p4.jpg - take away the fins, and they are almost the same, at least from that angle, not so much here.

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#22 2004-02-25 17:15:23

Ad Astra
Member
Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

The Kliper shape reminds me of both the McDD X-33 design and Lockheed's "Lifting Capsule" OSP.  The idea of a conical re-entry vehicle that re-enters in ahorizontal attitude isn't new; but Kliper is exciting because it shows that the Russians are progressing beyond their 35+ years of simply tweaking the Soyuz system.

BTW, with the timeliness of that article on astronautix.com, do you think that Mark Wade pays attention to this forum?  It seems like a pretty good bet that he or some other astronautix contributor does.


Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#23 2004-02-25 19:22:30

Lars_J
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Registered: 2004-02-11
Posts: 82

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

but Kliper is exciting because it shows that the Russians are progressing beyond their 35+ years of simply tweaking the Soyuz system

I wouldn't say that - The russians have experimented with lifting bodies for almost as long as the americans have. After all, NASA's HL-20 concept was pretty much a copy of the russian lifting body BOR-4.

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#24 2005-06-20 05:03:59

Yang Liwei Rocket
Member
Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Europe pledges support for planned Russian spacecraft

spacedaily

Kliper (Clipper), the brainchild of Russian space corporation RKK Energia, is sketched as a successor to the venerable Cold War workhorse of space, the Soyuz capsule.

It would be a reusable, wingless space plane that would glide back to Earth, with up to seven people on board. It would be used for ferry services to the International Space Station (ISS) or for space tourism.

Mockups of Kliper have been shown in aerospace shows in Europe and Japan in the hope of whipping up interest in it.

The European Space Agency (ESA) on Friday pledged its backing for Russia's plans for manned spacecraft called Kliper, the news agency Itar-Tass reported here.

Daniel Sacotte, ESA's director of human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration programmes, said here his organisation "would support" the project, it said.

The project was discussed by Anatoly Perminov, head of the Russian Space Agency (RSA) and visiting ESA chief Jean-Jaques Dordain, it said.


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

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#25 2005-07-17 23:07:28

Yang Liwei Rocket
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Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: New Russian Spacecraft

Astronautix link to Kliper or Clipper in English? Isn't this the new Russian spacecraft? Thanks to TL James at Louisiana Mars Society for posting this link, where I first saw it.

4 passengers and 2 crew? Perfect for travel to/from a space hotel.

More on the Russian space craft, the Kliper spacecraft would have a mass of some 13 tonnes at launch. It would be carried into orbit by an improved and more powerful version of the Soyuz rocket.Russia and the European Space Agency (ESA) have signed an agreement to allow closer co-operation over the use of facilities and exchange of information. Some Proton missions will be moved from Russian space centers to Kourou, French Guiana. Vladimir Taneev, the leading designer of the Kliper system speculated on the contribution of Europe to the project in the following way: The European companies will likely contribute avionics, materials, and cabin systems. Many different options are on the table, and in the near future we expect to form Russian-European working groups specialized in different subsystems and fields of design. Both the project itself and the funding questions will be debated in a European space summit in December 2005. Work on the new launch pad, dedicated to the Russian launcher and costing an estimated €344 million, can now begin at Europe’s Spaceport in Kourou.

Not far from the Kliper model at Le Bourget was another scale model, that of the future Soyoz launch complex being built in French Guiana.Soyuz is due to be launched by Arianespace for the first time in 2007 and will complement the European heavy-class Ariane 5 and small Vega launchers. That weight-bearing capacity will fill a niche between Arianespace's two other rocket lines. The company’s Vega rockets launch small scientific satellites weighing no more than 1.5 tonnes into relatively low orbit, while the company's two types of Ariane 5 rockets can launch 6.6 tonnes or 10.0 tonnes into geostationary transfer orbit, respectively. The Klipper craft can carry up to six people and can be used for ferry services between earth and the International Space Station, but is also planned to be the crew module for further trips to the Moon and Mars. The Russian Phobos-Grunt mission will study the Moons of Mars. Phobos-Grunt will also study Mars and its environment, including atmosphere and dust storms, plasma and radiation. Electric jet propulsion is considered for this Russian mission. At present the Soyuz rocket will not be able to lift Kliper into lower earth orbit, because the spacecraft is planned to weigh between 13 and 14.5 metric tons with payload and crew whereas Soyuz only has a lifting capacity of around 8 metric tons. It was therefore planned to heavily enhance the Soyuz rocket - a project that was labelled the Onega rocket. However as of 2005 it is much more likely that Kliper will take off on a Angara-A3 rocket, which is scheduled to make its first launch 2006-2007 or under certain circumstances on a Zenit rocket that is built in Ukraine. Kliper is planned to be a flexible spacecraft, that should have the capability to be launched both from Plesetsk or Baikonur and the European spaceport in French Guiana Kourou. As of June 2005 it is unclear whether the Ariane 5 rocket, that was originally designed to bring the European Hermes shuttle into orbit, will be used as a launch vehicle beside Russian launch carriers.
smile
http://www.esa.int/SPECIAL...._0.html
http://www.physorg.com/news4929.html
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2....start=0
http://www.esa.int/SPECIAL...._0.html


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

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