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#1 2004-04-23 14:20:39

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Hey, looks like we're in the foot-hills at last...  big_smile

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars....1M1.JPG[/quote:post_uid0]
*Wow, I'll say.  Initial download (prior to it downsizing automatically) has a real "in your face" quality. 

What a contrast...not a blade of vegetation anywhere, and I step outdoors and see a garden planet. 

There are some hills approximately 35 miles north of my city, which have a scant amount of mesquite bushes (which are tiny to begin with) on them.  Take a pic at sunrise or sunset, and those purplish/red/orangish hills would look like Mars.  tongue

--Cindy
[/quote:post_uid0]

...but it almost looks like the blurriness of the terrain on the ramp up the hillside there looks smooth, as if there were a covering of dry dead grass just like in the California foothills in late summer, i'd almost expect Spirit to see some struggling oak trees dotting the hillside and find a few dried-out cow chips lying around...[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#2 2004-04-23 17:28:25

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Which way is that image facing? And which way are we going here? It looks pretty crazy.

BTW, thanks atomoid.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#3 2004-04-23 18:25:12

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid9]Yes, it's a great picture all right! Thanks Stu and Atomoid.
    I notice that many of the rocks appear to have small white protuberances - almost like sections of harder material. Is this true or do you think it's just a trick of the light?
    I'm wondering about veins of quartz, or something similar, running through the rock and being exposed on the surface of the debris after an impact.
    Or maybe I'm just dreaming!
                                               smile[/color:post_uid9]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#4 2004-04-23 19:54:56

RobS
Banned
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Quartz is unlikely; the basalts on Mars are low in silica and high in olivine. Olivine and quarta are incompatible; if I remember olivine is an SiO4 and quartz an SiO2, and if there's enough SiO2 around to make quartz, it prevents the melt from forming SiO4 minerals.

But there are plenty of light-colored minerals in veins in basalts on Earth; calcite, fluorite, prehnite. . . salts can be found in them as well.

               -- RobS[/color:post_uid0]

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#5 2004-04-23 21:39:57

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Yes, it's a great picture all right! Thanks Stu and Atomoid.
    I notice that many of the rocks appear to have small white protuberances - almost like sections of harder material. Is this true or do you think it's just a trick of the light?
    I'm wondering about veins of quartz, or something similar, running through the rock and being exposed on the surface of the debris after an impact.
    Or maybe I'm just dreaming!
                                               smile[/quote:post_uid0]
I think the white areas on the rocks are just areas where the reflectance of the rock is oversaturating the ccd at the exposure setting used for the snapshot. Perhaps the sun is reflecting off a smooth area of the rock. The limit of the ccd just records areas above this limit as all white rather than shaded gradation since it cant differentiate the data when it overflows the ccd. just like the images showing some rover metal, it cuts out as white since it need to get the right contrast for the rest of the image. If the ccd had some extra dynamic range (btw i thought they could design a ccd that just does photon counts, eliminating this "overflow" limitation, the resultant image data could then be optimized to show an infinite dynamic range), then these areas would have some gradation and not just get pegged to solid white. Therefore, if the exposure for this snapshot were lessened a bit, we'd see these white areas replaced by some gradation rather than the cut-off limit going all white in a block. however, the rest of the image would in turn be darker. sorry for the long winded rambling but i think thats all it is.

Olivine is a bit more complicated (Mg, Fe)2SiO4, Magnesium Iron Silicate (not that i know much about geology or what the implications of this are, i just got curious and looked it up).

And thanks for bringing this up, it hadnt even occurred to me that there might be the possibility of finding mineral veins in Mars rocks, i guess i just got used to seeing boring basalts, and so far it looks like there havent been any veins, but if quatz is a no-go maybe well see some other type of minerals or crystal inclusions if there is some exposed bedrock in the hills?[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#6 2004-04-24 01:57:17

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]About those indentations in the soil at the bottom of which seem to be those flat rocks. how could this be, wouldnt thse divets fill in? heres a 3D anaglyph of one of these "divets". and here are some other shots from sol 82.
Maybe this is it:
1) chunks of this blueberry BB bedrock get tossed around by crater impacts
2) they get all or partially covered by soils (or maybe they are remnants of some kind of ancient tufa towers instead of bedrock chunks, i like the idea but i dont know much about tufa)
3) soils get blown away over a slow timescale while the boulders (tufa towers) get dissolved at a somewhat faster rate
4) so the rock retreats lower than the surrounding soil, gradually leaving a graded slope as the soil BBs roll in to fill the void at the bottom of which is the flat portion of bedrock slowly blowing away.
- These bedrock chunks (or BB-filled or BB-free tufa towers) blow away faster because they dont have the BB covering protecting them from the wind. But if it blows away so fast then why arent all the other blueberry rocks sitting around arent blown away by now? maybe these rocks are a softer deeper layer than the topmost layers of which are exposed in eagle crater and thrown around by fram, it could be that in endurance well find deeply sculpted lower layers of softer bedrock, and the chunks that have blown away leaving these divets were from this deeper crater and have blown away in the interim.

So maybe thats the genesis of the dimples as well as the sinuous cracks in "Anatolia" described in the press releases. The crack would be a similar remnant void but in this case a crater ejecta ray of this soft bedrock would blow away. well have to see if it points in line with the crater, if its not a contraction crack or streambed...[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#7 2004-04-24 02:13:52

Stu
Member
From: Kendal, Cumbria, England
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 318
Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Some intriguing new pictures on the Exploratorium pages...

Details in the far wall of Endurance crater -

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars....7M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars....7M1.JPG

- anyone else seeing layering and detail on that wall over there?  smile

And this image hints that there may be some vertical relief in the Meridiani landscape, albeit far away on the horizon -

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars....1M1.JPG

Josh: to answer your earlier question about "which way are we facing?" - the camel-hump like "peak" on the centre right of the image there is "Ramon Hill", named after the Israeli astronaut who died on Columbia. To its left is McCool Hill.[/color:post_uid0]


Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse

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#8 2004-04-24 04:05:15

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Yes, it's a great picture all right! Thanks Stu and Atomoid.
    I notice that many of the rocks appear to have small white protuberances - almost like sections of harder material. Is this true or do you think it's just a trick of the light?
    I'm wondering about veins of quartz, or something similar, running through the rock and being exposed on the surface of the debris after an impact.
    Or maybe I'm just dreaming!
                                               smile[/quote:post_uid0]
Don't forget these are FILTERED images; this is a L7 (=blue) image, so if you see white, it means it's blue (if you see black, it means it is not-blue, but you can't know what it is, if you don't look at other filters).

Look at this image I build from 2P135695381EFF3100P2389L5M1.JPG and corresponding L2-L7:
[img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 06tJPG.jpg[/img:post_uid0]
Color hills (sol 106 or 105 or 107?!?)

If you look at raw images (L5
L2 L7), you can see L7 one has white parts in corresponding blue-parts of composed image.

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#9 2004-04-24 04:18:57

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]A new strange image to discuss about  smile
circles

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#10 2004-04-24 04:36:16

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I "anaglyphized" the circles:
[img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … aglyph.jpg[/img:post_uid0]

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#11 2004-04-24 04:52:50

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Whoa!

Any idea how that formed?[/color:post_uid0]

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#12 2004-04-24 05:10:50

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid5]Thanks for the 'circles', Luca.
    However, I think you're wrong in describing the pattern as circular; to me it's undoubtedly a spiral shape.
    What we're looking at here is the partially exhumed and very badly eroded fossil of an extinct martian shellfish, rather like the ammonites which graced terrestrial oceans millions of years ago.
    No question about it!    tongue

[Edit: I just googled for an example and found THIS SITE. ][/color:post_uid5]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#13 2004-04-24 05:42:54

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,667

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Heehee... to be honest, Shaun, for a moment i thought you'd link to enterprizemissiondotnonsense... big_smile

But i have this 'tip of the tongue' feeling i've seen such a feature before, somewhere... But where oh where...[/color:post_uid0]

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#14 2004-04-24 05:49:28

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I was trying to build a 3d color image, and I obtained this: the evidence of color changing during Martian day:

[img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 2L5L6T.jpg[/img:post_uid0]  (zoom)

[img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 2L5L6T.jpg[/img:post_uid0] (zoom)

Both of the images are built from 2-5-6 filters!


Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#15 2004-04-24 07:23:27

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid9]Luca. I don't understand what you're trying to tell us with these blue-saturated pictures. I take it you're not trying to say that these colours are representative of how colours actually look on Mars(?).
    And why is it so interesting that martian rocks should appear to change colour during the course of a day? I've just come from Ayers Rock in central Australia and that huge monolith changes from indigo to purple to red-brown to orange on a regular basis, day by day, depending on the angle of the sunlight.

    I'm not trying to be confrontational in asking these questions, I hope you understand.  smile  And if you're simply pointing out these colour changes for purely aesthetic reasons - a natural fascination with the beauty of nature - then I'm more than happy to go along with it.
    But is there an underlying point to your work in bringing these adjusted images to our attention? Just curious, that's all!

[Incidentally, I love that flaky circular structure you showed us. It's such a pity we're not getting JPL-team comments on such features any more because, although to the geologists these things may be quite mundane, to those of us less well versed in geology they're really quite mysterious.  :bars:  ][/color:post_uid9]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#16 2004-04-24 07:57:34

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Luca. I don't understand what you're trying to tell us with these blue-saturated pictures.[/quote:post_uid0]
They are NOT saturated, they are just like Mars is! (see below...)

I take it you're not trying to say that these colours are representative of how colours actually look on Mars(?).
[/quote:post_uid0]
Not exactly...

And why is it so interesting that martian rocks should appear to change colour during the course of a day? I've just come from Ayers Rock in central Australia and that huge monolith changes from indigo to purple to red-brown to orange on a regular basis, day by day, depending on the angle of the sunlight.
[/quote:post_uid0]
That's the point!
I talked in my previous posts about difference between NASA reddish images and others' bluish images of Mars, and I think the two images of my latest post show the reason (probably) of those differences: it looks like the red component in Martian landscape changes A LOT during a Martian day!

I'm not trying to be confrontational in asking these questions, I hope you understand.  smile  And if you're simply pointing out these colour changes for purely aesthetic reasons - a natural fascination with the beauty of nature - then I'm more than happy to go along with it.
    But is there an underlying point to your work in bringing these adjusted images to our attention? Just curious, that's all!
[/quote:post_uid0]
I was just trying to find an explanation for red or blue Martian skies, and I think I found it.
I know, you told me it... wink , but now I have seen it by myself! smile (although no sky is visible in one of the two photos, but this is not the point).
Now I am sure that Mars IS blue (in some areas), as it appears blue even in different moments of the Sol.


Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#17 2004-04-24 09:01:35

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]So, it was not by chance: NASA [b:post_uid0]is actually[/b:post_uid0] taking snapshots of the same places at different moments of the Sol: maybe they are studying how enlightment changes during the Sol... just like me?  smile
[img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 7--M1t.JPG[/img:post_uid0]   [img:post_uid0]http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … 7--M1t.JPG[/img:post_uid0]
(zoom1 and zoom2)

Are you able to determine for me the time of the photos? The first part of their name is the original one.

Hey, it's REALLY hard to browse images from http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … 004-04-23/ without thumbnails previes like in lyle.org!!! :rant:

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#18 2004-04-24 09:23:03

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]... you can't miss this Opportunity's image!!!
image

... and my corresponding  anaglyph.


Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#19 2004-04-24 11:45:52

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Can you explain your method to make those, cassioli?[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#20 2004-04-24 12:49:06

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Can you explain your method to make those, cassioli?[/quote:post_uid0]
Those... what? The color images? Simple R+G+B (=L2+L5+L7) composition. But it looks like latest images are shot twice in different moments of the Sol (looking at the same object), so we obtain two different color images.
It would be VERY cool if they took even more than two shots!

Anaglyphs? Using StereoPhoto Maker.

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#21 2004-04-24 12:54:42

Julius Caeser
Member
From: Malta
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 105

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Cassioli..what the hell is that...smoke??[/color:post_uid0]

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#22 2004-04-24 13:12:28

cassioli
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2004-02-23
Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The plenty of spherules in opportunity's site is very impressive.
The Pilbara anaglyph is interesting, but... look at THIS anaglyph!!! :band:

Over soil, inside rocks, "at half way" between rocks and soil (when they are on stems)... they are EVERYWHERE!
It's defintely a strange planet!

Luca[/color:post_uid0]

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#23 2004-04-24 18:11:42

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]regarding the bright white glints on some rocks...  look at this sol 105 "R7" image of the big rock glint just above where Cassioli pointed out that interesting circular feature (which i think might be an eroded concretion remnant, but that aside...).

The glint in the rock in this image is downright anomalous. Notice that there is no normal "whiting-out" of other areas of the image as would happen in a usual ccd oversaturation scenario, just the part of the rock where the glint is, it has to be a *very* bright glint to go out of gamut like this.

This is the "R1" image, look at the Left "L7"  image and there is no glint (the different filter may have something to do with it). you'll notice that the glint is coming from an area that is a crack or groove in the rock. Might there be a crystal inclusion here glinting back exclusively at the angle in the R1 image? (unless its just a random data transmission dropout anomaly, but i highly doubt that). Spirit might have happened to spy the sun reflecting off a crystal face here.[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#24 2004-04-24 18:25:18

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

The plenty of spherules in opportunity's site is very impressive.
The Pilbara anaglyph is interesting, but... look at THIS anaglyph!!! :band:

Over soil, inside rocks, "at half way" between rocks and soil (when they are on stems)... they are EVERYWHERE!
It's defintely a strange planet!

Luca[/quote:post_uid0]
Thanks, this is truly an incredible image (indeed... planet!). The stems, of which i was so let down when they didnt MI close-up that big one in Eagle, are so much more plentiful here at Fram, now I hope we'll finally get those stem close-ups...

Why so many stems here? because it might be composed of newer debris? Are the stems merely the result of the wind blowing consistently from one precise angle over a long time period eroding everything but the leeward side around each blueberry and leaving these stem supports? In this case all the adjacent blueberry stems should point somewhat parallel, implying the same wind direction...[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#25 2004-04-24 20:23:35

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *6* - continue on from thread "5"

[color=#000000:post_uid10]So, Luca, if I understand you correctly, you're saying there are times of the day on Mars when the sky is a vivid blue and so are many of the rocks?
    This is a remarkable position to take on the subject of the sky colour on Mars! I've been suspicious for years that the martian sky would often appear blue-tinged if the local dust content of the air were sufficiently low. Very few people seem to agree; most of them assuming the sky is always varying shades of orangey-pink, as NASA presents it.
    Now, you come along and, not satisfied with perhaps an occasionally pale blue sky, you'd have us believe the sky [b:post_uid10]and the rocks[/b:post_uid10] are a rich shade of blue at certain times of almost every day!!  yikes

    I have no quarrel with your argument about the sky, in principle, because I tend to think Mars is more Earth-like than the photos might suggest; certainly less lurid red than NASA generally portrays it.
    But I've never seen rocks of the colour you present in your photos, except perhaps for crystals of copper sulphate which we used to grow on threads of cotton in saturated solutions when I was a kid in school.
    The rocks you show us just look too blue to be realistic!
    Are you sure this is what you think the actual surface of Mars would look like to an astronaut standing there?!  ???
    It seems to me to be very hard to believe.[/color:post_uid10]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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