Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

Byron · 2003-09-29 15:14:55

Bump post...can't see original post

Palomar · 2003-09-29 17:18:25

BUMP

Palomar · 2003-09-29 19:09:37

*Adrian, please delete the thread. I didn't save the original post, which took over half an hour to compose. I don't have the time or wherewithal to recompose it, especially as I begin my work week tomorrow.

If you can't retrieve the original and if it's absolutely gone (pressing the "Reply" button and scrolling down doesn't show it), then just please delete the thread.

--Cindy

Free Spirit · 2003-09-29 22:27:31

Ouch, figures the message board would screw up when you're writing a time consuming message. :angry: Are you still going to tell us what you said? That "& Humans" part has me dying to know.

Palomar · 2003-09-30 05:09:49

Ouch, figures the message board would screw up when you're writing a time consuming message. :angry: Are you still going to tell us what you said? That "& Humans" part has me dying to know.

*Well, I've just started my 50-hour work week and I've got a hectic weekend coming up...it'll be a while, if I do repost it. But it was a very complicated post and I'm not sure I want to spend another 35+ minutes recomposing it.

I've never known a thread to collapse with the 1st post.
...even if it was a bit lengthy. An unfortunate and unintended "tease" this turned out to be. That'll teach me to save the next lengthy post. BTW, pressing "+Add Reply" and scrolling down will usually always show the text of a post which doesn't show in the usual manner; the text of my post isn't visible that way either, so I guess it's lost.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-09-30 07:54:39

Major drag!!
My sympathies, Cindy.

dickbill · 2003-09-30 08:01:42

Actually I wanted to post a new thread in the life section about "evolutionary biology" . Survival of the fitest is not very far, but there are many other possibility, S. J. Gould would rather have said "survival of the luckiest". Was "Evolution" the point of your disapeared post Cindy ?

Bill White · 2003-09-30 08:11:34

Actually I wanted to post a new thread in the life section about "evolutionary biology" . Survival of the fitest is not very far, but there are many other possibility, S. J. Gould would rather have said "survival of the luckiest". Was "Evolution" the point of your disapeared post Cindy ?

Rabbits do well by making baby bunnies faster than the wolves can eat them. Monkeys did well by ganging together to bring down lions and bears.

"Survival of the fittest" is an unfortunate phrase that has been used to support social policies beneficial to the elites. If 12 weak monkeys can gang together and drop a lion, more power to them. If a labor union can organize and drop a fat cat capitalist, more power to them.

Byron · 2003-09-30 08:42:11

"Survival of the fittest" is an unfortunate phrase that has been used to support social policies beneficial to the elites. If 12 weak monkeys can gang together and drop a lion, more power to them. If a labor union can organize and drop a fat cat capitalist, more power to them.

Right on, Bill

May the 12 "weak" monkeys win, every time.... There's strength in numbers, I say.

B

Bill White · 2003-09-30 10:51:04

"Survival of the fittest" is an unfortunate phrase that has been used to support social policies beneficial to the elites. If 12 weak monkeys can gang together and drop a lion, more power to them. If a labor union can organize and drop a fat cat capitalist, more power to them.
Right on, Bill
May the 12 "weak" monkeys win, every time.... There's strength in numbers, I say.
B

Yeah, okay, but don't forget Orwell's book "Animal Farm"

Becoming a labor union leader is often a good way to avoid staying part of the working class. The old Soviet Union and Mao's China prove the evil that can develop when unchecked monkeys rule over all.

Palomar · 2003-09-30 11:20:02

"Survival of the fittest" is an unfortunate phrase that has been used to support social policies beneficial to the elites. If 12 weak monkeys can gang together and drop a lion, more power to them. If a labor union can organize and drop a fat cat capitalist, more power to them.
Right on, Bill
May the 12 "weak" monkeys win, every time.... There's strength in numbers, I say.
B
Yeah, okay, but don't forget Orwell's book "Animal Farm"
Becoming a labor union leader is often a good way to avoid staying part of the working class. The old Soviet Union and Mao's China prove the evil that can develop when unchecked monkeys rule over all.

*That's another excellent point, Bill. If you've been following the latest discussions in the "Apropos of Nothing" thread, you might see what I'm thinking: The unchecked monkeys have overrun the place.

Reminds me of what an opponent of Thomas Paine's _Common Sense_ booklet said regarding the power of a monarch versus the power of the masses: He'd rather be mauled by a lion than eaten alive by a pack of rats. There's food for thought in there somewhere (though god forbid we go back to monarchy with all its attendant and usual abuses of privilege and power).

I wish I had "The Answer" to all these troubling situations.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-09-30 14:52:06

I wish I had "The Answer" to all these troubling situations.
--Cindy

I have the Answer for ya right here...and it's the Magnificant Infinite Wealth Machine!

Coming Soon to a Store Near You...

B

Bill White · 2003-09-30 16:05:21

Right on, Bill
May the 12 "weak" monkeys win, every time.... There's strength in numbers, I say.
B
Yeah, okay, but don't forget Orwell's book "Animal Farm"
Becoming a labor union leader is often a good way to avoid staying part of the working class. The old Soviet Union and Mao's China prove the evil that can develop when unchecked monkeys rule over all.
*That's another excellent point, Bill. If you've been following the latest discussions in the "Apropos of Nothing" thread, you might see what I'm thinking: The unchecked monkeys have overrun the place.
Reminds me of what an opponent of Thomas Paine's _Common Sense_ booklet said regarding the power of a monarch versus the power of the masses: He'd rather be mauled by a lion than eaten alive by a pack of rats. There's food for thought in there somewhere (though god forbid we go back to monarchy with all its attendant and usual abuses of privilege and power).
I wish I had "The Answer" to all these troubling situations.
--Cindy

Rats or lions? How about none of the above?

How about this nest-effect? Pretty cool, huh?

Byron · 2003-09-30 16:14:32

Yeah, okay, but don't forget Orwell's book "Animal Farm"
Becoming a labor union leader is often a good way to avoid staying part of the working class. The old Soviet Union and Mao's China prove the evil that can develop when unchecked monkeys rule over all.
*That's another excellent point, Bill. If you've been following the latest discussions in the "Apropos of Nothing" thread, you might see what I'm thinking: The unchecked monkeys have overrun the place.
Reminds me of what an opponent of Thomas Paine's _Common Sense_ booklet said regarding the power of a monarch versus the power of the masses: He'd rather be mauled by a lion than eaten alive by a pack of rats. There's food for thought in there somewhere (though god forbid we go back to monarchy with all its attendant and usual abuses of privilege and power).
I wish I had "The Answer" to all these troubling situations.
--Cindy
Rats or lions? How about none of the above?
How about this nest-effect? Pretty cool, huh?

I just had to take this to the next level...

B

Free Spirit · 2003-09-30 16:35:49

::EDIT:: It also seems, IMO, that people tend to forget that nature is not all entirely fangs, blood, gore and "I've got mine!" If a baby elephant gets stuck in a water hole, its mother and aunts will try and try (AND TRY) to help it out by pushing their trunks against its rump -- they will trumpet and alert other elephants of the baby being in danger and needing help. Rabbits will thump their paws on the warren to warn the other rabbits of impending danger (they don't just run off with "Well, I'm safe -- screw you guys!"). Mother cats have been known to run in and out of burning buildings, to carry her kittens to safety, etc. Dogs have been known to nurse and care for orphaned kittens, chickens with ducklings, etc. Nature isn't always mean and nasty and full of bone-crunching carnage.

Sorry for breaking the chain of quotes But it's nice to see that there is someone out there who realizes there's more to nature than pure competition and tearing each other limb to limb over every scrap. The way some people talk, it's amazing us humans lived long enough as a species to create laws, prisons, and lawyers to protect us from our innate desire to murder every living being that comes our way. Those people don't seem to realize that early humans relied on cooperation much more than they did bashing each others' skulls to pieces in order to survive. Some philosophers have made good arguements that it wasn't until we had truly powerful full-time elites (supported through sedentary agriculture and division of labor among the masses) that the real blood baths began so the parasitic elites could secure their status, gain wealth, etc. If it's any indication, the few remaining true hunter-gathering societies in the world are very egalitarian and don't have the power trips and willingness to sacrifice other people in their pursuits as us supposedly civilized and enlightened people do.

Byron · 2003-09-30 16:52:49

Those people don't seem to realize that early humans relied on cooperation much more than they did bashing each others' skulls to pieces in order to survive. Some philosophers have made good arguements that it wasn't until we had truly powerful full-time elites (supported through sedentary agriculture and division of labor among the masses) that the real blood baths began so the parasitic elites could secure their status, gain wealth, etc. If it's any indication, the few remaining true hunter-gathering societies in the world are very egalitarian and don't have the power trips and willingness to sacrifice other people in their pursuits as us supposedly civilized and enlightened people do.

It was worth breaking the "chain" for saying what you posted here...I agree with you 100% about the "parasitic elites."

It'd be nice to step back a bit and think about what those in power have done to humanity over the years...

B

Palomar · 2003-09-30 19:57:20

Actually I wanted to post a new thread in the life section about "evolutionary biology" . Survival of the fitest is not very far, but there are many other possibility, S. J. Gould would rather have said "survival of the luckiest". Was "Evolution" the point of your disapeared post Cindy ?

::sigh:: I don't believe it. I could have sworn I'd unintentionally doubled my response to dickbill and Bill White from earlier today; I -know- I saw a duplicate of that post. I went to delete the extra, and now that post is missing entirely. Maybe I need a vacation or this thread is jinxed for me...damn.

Dickbill, the jist of my post was my belief -- in much agreement with Bill White's first response -- that humans have misconstrued the concept of "survival of the fittest"...and how the concept (which you mention) of "survival of the LUCKIEST" is often neglected/overlooked (Carl Sagan first drew my attention to it in _Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors_); how luck and chance do indeed appear to factor into survival. I mentioned a group of individualists I formerly BRIEFLY involved myself with, who publically advertised themselves as being individualists interested in cultivating their strengths with other individualistic-minded persons. Turns out they were always claiming to be "the elite" (of the world no less)...and all the while these "elite" who were the "creme de la creme of 'survival of the fittest'" had (apparently) nothing better to do with their time than harrass former members (who spoke openly against them), engage in flamewars, petty bickering, and backstabbing amongst themselves...ha, some "elite". I left very quickly.

I mentioned that no boulder ever dislodged itself from a mountain precipice with the volitional thought in mind of rolling down the mountainside in order to smash into a herd of deer which might need "thinning". In other words, going back to the "nature is neither beneficient nor malignant: it simply is" idea.

Thank goodness Free Spirit (thanks!!) quoted a portion of my 2nd post (which has now also disappeared):

::EDIT:: It also seems, IMO, that people tend to forget that nature is not all entirely fangs, blood, gore and "I've got mine!" If a baby elephant gets stuck in a water hole, its mother and aunts will try and try (AND TRY) to help it out by pushing their trunks against its rump -- they will trumpet and alert other elephants of the baby being in danger and needing help. Rabbits will thump their paws on the warren to warn the other rabbits of impending danger (they don't just run off with "Well, I'm safe -- screw you guys!"). Mother cats have been known to run in and out of burning buildings, to carry her kittens to safety, etc. Dogs have been known to nurse and care for orphaned kittens, chickens with ducklings, etc. Nature isn't always mean and nasty and full of bone-crunching carnage.

I hope THIS post stays put.

--Cindy

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#1 2003-09-29 15:14:55

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#2 2003-09-29 17:18:25

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#3 2003-09-29 19:09:37

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#4 2003-09-29 22:27:31

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#5 2003-09-30 05:09:49

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#6 2003-09-30 07:54:39

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#7 2003-09-30 08:01:42

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#8 2003-09-30 08:11:34

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#9 2003-09-30 08:42:11

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#10 2003-09-30 10:51:04

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#11 2003-09-30 11:20:02

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#12 2003-09-30 14:52:06

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#13 2003-09-30 16:05:21

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#14 2003-09-30 16:14:32

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#15 2003-09-30 16:35:49

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#16 2003-09-30 16:52:49

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

#17 2003-09-30 19:57:20

Re: Survival of The Fittest - ...& Humans

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