Usborne

Palomar · 2004-02-07 18:57:29

*Okay, I picked up an astronomy book for kids (for my nephew) during today's trip to the National Solar Observatory at Sunspot, New Mexico with my husband (I posted about it in the "Heliopolis" thread).

The book is entitled _Usborne Stars and Planets_, originally published in England around 1996-8...with one of the authors/collaborators named *Stuart Atkinson.*

Now I'm presuming there might be more than 1 guy named Stuart Atkinson in England who is interested in astronomy...but I did sit up and take notice.

Stu, do you have a "confession" to make?? Inquiring minds want to know!

--Cindy

Adrian · 2004-02-07 20:41:46

Eh, it's well known that our Stu has written more than a few books about space and astronomy here in the UK He's far to modest to mention it himself though - I think the only evidence you can find of it is his little bio at the end of his articles here (which is sadly out of date, entirely because of me).

Stu · 2004-02-08 04:59:02

Guilty as charged Cindy... yep, that's one of mine, number 4 out of 7 I think. I've written 7 books of my own and have worked on another 30 or so. Had a few articles in mags like ASTRONOMY and ASTRONOMY NOW, but nothing that's set the world on fire

Usborne are my main publisher, I do most of my work for them, but I've also worked with / for Kingfisher, Two-Can and others. I think my last book was for a Disney-owned publisher, available only in the US. I lose track to be honest, I just answer the emails and answer the questions... it usually works out, and isn't that big a deal really. Enjoy tapping away.

Trying hard to get my first fiction published now, long slog tho. My best writing has definitely been here on New Mars, for which I really want to thank you, Adrian.

dicktice · 2004-02-08 11:12:02

Stu: For one who has written technical manuals only (me), have you any tips for writing dialogue spoken in conversation by your characters? I mean, based upon your own experience at this time, while you're trying to get published. No-no's, for instance, that you might like to share. . . ?

Palomar · 2004-02-08 18:36:04

*Mea culpa. I shouldn't post when I've had a long road trip and a headache. I didn't word my initial post well enough.

Yes, Stu, I recall your mentioning writing and being published. On that basis, I presumed it was likely you (I noticed your name after the purchase and upon returning home).

I'm hoping it'll tweak an interest in astronomy in my nephew. It's a terrific book...very large (dimensionally), great color illustrations, large type print.

Congrats, Stu, on this and your other works.

--Cindy

Stu · 2004-02-09 05:07:08

Stu: For one who has written technical manuals only (me), have you any tips for writing dialogue spoken in conversation by your characters? I mean, based upon your own experience at this time, while you're trying to get published. No-no's, for instance, that you might like to share. . . ?

Hmm, not sure how qualified I am to give advice seeing as I haven't been published yet :;): but I would say to keep your dialogue natural and give each character in conversations a distinct voice, with their own quirks, language nuances and "tone".

TV shows like DAWSON'S CREEK have been feted for their intelligent scripts and witty dialogue, but it's completely un-natural, full of long conversations where each sentences is so crammed full of worthiness that you can almost hear it preying. Conversations of that type are more like sermons or psychology 101 discussions, you know? And, even worse, the characters all have almost clone-similar vocabularies, delivery and tone, it's glaringly-obvious that what you're hearing is not so much a conversation as a script, written by a writer. If everyone sounds the same then the conversation will be unrealistic.

But listen to the WEST WING's dialogue and it is *perfect* - each character has his or her own "voice" and mannerisms, there are lots of pauses in the exchanges to allow points to register, golden silent time for people in the conversations to mull things over... and WEST WING is a prime example of how a lot can be said *without* words, how characters relate to each other with silences and pauses just as much as they do with words.

So, I guess it just comes down to not letting your characters "spout" on and on and on... if you take a moment to listen to people you know (or don't know!) talking, you'll realise there are LOTS of pauses for affirmation or clarification.

Any help?

Adrian · 2004-02-09 05:21:41

A very interesting point, Stu. I would liken it to the bad habit of SF authors (and others) to 'data dump' in conversations. So, for example, if the author is trying to explain what a Dyson Sphere is, instead of doing it naturally he might be lazy and 'data dump' into a character:

"As you know, Bob, Dyson Spheres were invented by Freeman Dyson back in the early 20th Century and consist of a shell around..."

There's no way anyone would say this in natural conversation, just as Stu pointed out that there's no way anyone in Dawson's Creek would be able to marshal their thoughts on emotion and life so densely and cogently.

Stu · 2004-02-09 05:27:09

...there's no way anyone in Dawson's Creek would be able to marshal their thoughts on emotion and life so densely and cogently.

Unless they are as perfect as Katie Holmes, of course...

STAR TREK characters Data dump (excuse the pun!) relentlessly too.

clark · 2004-02-09 06:34:43

Might I offer that using rules of dialogue for a TV script are rather different than the rules one should employ with regular fiction. The same way rules for dialogue in fiction shouldn't be employed for screenwriting, or even play writing.

Each format has different requirements, which are largely determined by the constraints of the writing format. Use of a 'natural voice' is of course a neccessity, but is largely the hardest part, as Stu and Adrian have pointed out.

In scripts, like TV or Movies, the writer is generally employing as much word economy as possible. A movie is 120 or so pages- each page equals about a minute of screen time, and you typically want to avoid the long singular monologues of a single character dominating a scene. For a movie, life comes via interaction of the characters and their immediate environment. Nothing really exsists, or is understood unless their is dialogue to explain it to the viewer. It makes sense since the viewer (i.e., you) understands the story through the characters, their narration to you as a disembodied third person.

You can see the same constraints within TV, but here the writers are working with maybe 30-60 pages by which to tell a story (more word economy!). You tend to see a greater reliance on everyday catchisms to compress complex ideas into manageable amounts. This also points out that a writer will rely on commonly held ideas and sayings within the society (read audience here) to move the story along in as few words as possible.

Now Fiction is a beast. You can decide on characters, have all the natural voices in the world, and a great premise for a story, but it's just the begining of the game! In Fiction, you have to decide which perspective to use- or even if you want to use several. The reason that is important is primarily becuase it affects the pace and style of your characters.

Is the reader understanding the world you create through one set of eyes, multiple sets of eyes, a disembodied, all knowing third person, or a limited knowing third person? Do we get to hear the thoughts of characters? All characters? None?

The perspective itself determines the amount of information that the writier has to provide (how well you have to know your characters), or that a reader might expect.

Two lovers in an embrace: What is the guy thinking? What is he saying? WHat is the girl thinking, what is she saying? What do they feel? What do they think the other feels?

If you have the same story, same characters, but apply different perspective to this, you will end up with vastly different stories.

So, what to do?

An actor needs to learn the lines fortheir one character, a writer needs to create the lines for all people, ones that only exsist to aloow the story to be told. First rule, never get attached to your characters. Be perpared to kill them, labdaomize them, or change their gender willy-nilly. They exsist to serve your story- not the other way around.If you're set on a character, but it dosen't seem to be working out in the story, you need to either pick another story for the character, or just start from scratch.

Second rule, listen. Listen to everything, and everyone. How do they speak? How are words pronounced, or mispronounced? What is the slang speech of the particular group you wish to write about? Take the two lovers idea- now, imagine them as doctors, dealing with the medical knowledge residing in their brain that allows them to break down their act into medical based jargon. Now imagine two high school sweethearts about to go in different directions in life, but they have this one last night. Now imagine two aliens from the Planet Nebrilli who must complete a complicated mating ritual involving the sacrifice of one of their limbs to reproduce.
Who the characters are, what they 'should know', and what the writer assumes (or creates) their personality should be will affect how you write the scene.
Third rule, your universe will at all times, please repeat with me, be self-consistent. You want an example? Our world.

Our world- the laws of nature, are self-consistent. (please leave quantum physics out of this!). Nobody flies unless they have enough delta-v to escape gravity, right? Nobody really explodes for no good reason. Unless you writing about a mad house, everything better have a good-ol fashioned explanation (usually resolved by the main characters trying to figure out why the top of Mount Olympus blew off for 'no-good' reason.)

Just my opinion, hope someone finds it useful. If not, feel free to throw stones. :laugh:

Byron · 2004-02-09 07:11:51

Stu: For one who has written technical manuals only (me), have you any tips for writing dialogue spoken in conversation by your characters? I mean, based upon your own experience at this time, while you're trying to get published. No-no's, for instance, that you might like to share. . . ?

Well, a few folks have beat me to it on this thread..lol, but here's a couple of my suggestions, what I've learned from my own writing, etc.

I think the most important thing to remember is to just put words down on paper. You envision your characters interacting with each other, and their conversations with each other, the emotions swirling through their heads, etc, and you put it down in the form of the written word. This is the easy part, though...lol.

Before a writer can get into the specifics of dialogue, etc, the most important decision is deciding upon viewpoint character(s). This is *extremely* important, although there are no right or wrong answers, of course. You have to figure out what would work best for your story, how "personal" you want to be with your characters and so forth. Like for instance, if you want to write in the first person, you have the advantage of sharing your "narrative" character very closely with the reader, what's going on in his or her head, the internal thought processes in decision-making, etc, but you don't have this privilage with your other characters in your story.

Probably the most common method of writing a novel (SF or otherwise) is third person, limited viewpoint...which involves "sticking" with a particular character for all or part of the story. The reader knows what's going on in his or her head, and as every writer hopes, the reader will identify with the character on a personal / emotional level. You can, of course, have multiple viewpoint characters, which is actually very common in fiction writing, the important thing here is not to change your viewpoint character in the middle of a scene. (For instance, you're writing from the viewpoint of your male character in a love scene, describing what's he's feeling, how he interprets her emotions as he sees them, etc...but it's not kosher to suddenly switch to how she's thinking, reacting, anything that the male character doesn't know aside from reading her mind. Of course, you could have that too, but that's besides the point here...lol.) Most authors use a chapter or line break to "change" characters...go to any bookstore and flip through the pages of the bestsellers they have out on the front rack, and you'll see what I mean here.

As for the specifics of dialog, it gets a bit tricky, as you want to be realistic, but not super-realistic. Let's see if I can explain it a bit here: You don't want to put down every "hello, how are you Kim?" in your story...sure that's "realistic," but not suitable for fiction writing. You basically have to cut the small talk out and get to the meat of the conversation, otherwise your reader will go numb with boredom. This is one of the primary things editors will look for when they receive a manuscript...unnecessary or inappropiate dialogue. It is commonly said that you only need to put down on paper one-seventh of what is actually "spoken" as if you were standing right there and listening to them talk. Also, it's not a good idea to use the character's names in dialogue as they speak, as that's not commonly done in "real life," except at points of high emotion, etc. Same thing with accents and dialects...a little bit of flavor goes a *long* way...it's just like cooking, the right amount of spice in the dish has the potential to make it wonderful...a bit too much, however, can ruin it. That's why writing usually involves a great deal of rewriting, as it's certainly not easy to get it "just right," and to me, anyhow, it's a process of trial and error.

There's all kinds of books out there that discuss all aspects of fiction writing; these can be extremely helpful, but don't fall into the trap of latching on one or two writer's books, as it's important to have the freedom to use your own style, etc.

Hope this helps....

B

Stu · 2004-02-09 07:24:36

Might I offer that using rules of dialogue for a TV script are rather different than the rules one should employ with regular fiction.

I totally agree, I wasn't actually suggesting Dicktice should write as fiction novel dialogue as if writing for THE WEST WING, I was merely referring to that show's dialogue as an example of good dialogue.

TV, novel, movie, good writing is good writing.

clark · 2004-02-09 07:34:26

Thank you Byron, your point of view brings a bit more clarity to the subject.

How does one begin on the parts, without examining the whole?

When you're writing a story, you are in effect, writing multiple mini-stories that are cobbled together into the overall story arc. In all writing (execpt for that 'deconstrunction' stuff) this is true. Poem, plays, TV, Movies, or Fiction; they are all constructed in this way.

When approaching dialogue, you write for a scene. Then, as your number of scenes increase, you have to go back and re-write the internal self-consistency that ties it all together. Dialogue that does not move the story forward, or goes nowhere, should be dropped.

So, yeah, cutting down on the, "Hi, Jim," should be observed... unless of course that dialogue is useful for displaying the relationship between the two characters and setting up a confontation/resolution later in your story.

Everyone should be familiar with the Fairy godmother who didn't get an invite to the Princess's birthday... Sleeping Beauty. Or with the idea of simply brushing against the wrong person, at the right time, in a hallway leads to a run for your life and the responsibility to now save the world.

Words are the tools, so keep your workplace clean by cutting out the tools that just clutter the workplace. But I can't disagree with Byron, determining the perspective of your characters, and your story, are the basis of any good writing.

Edit: Stu, I didn't think you were. I was just merely pointing out that part of writing is understanding the context of how the story is delivered. Just as there are rules for technical writing, there are rules for screenwriting, poetry (depending on styles), plays, TV, or Fiction. As Byron suggested, reading works of others in the type of writing you wish to pursue will allow you to absorb some of those rules.

But you know all of that anyway.

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