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In discussions in October of 2024 in this forum, thermal energy storage is under consideration.
Calliban has suggested Butane as a fluid that would work well as a fluid for transport of thermal energy in this context.
The purpose of ** this ** topic is to investigate the possibility of sequestering Carbon from the atmosphere to make the Butane needed for a large scale thermal store.
In post #3 I'll show a conversation with Gemini (Google's enhanced search engine).
The post is intended to encourage evaluation of the proposal, and discussion of alternative approaches.
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This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.
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This post contains a transcript of a brief exchange with Gemini about how to make butane from CO2 and water.
The purpose of this post is to provide a starting point for more authoritative presentation of alternatives.
Ultimately I would like to see a solid plan for this project that can be implemented world wide.
How to make Butane from CO2 and water - hello again! An engineer in Great Britain is working on a thermal energy storage proposal for a town. He is recommending butane as the working fluid. Butane would ordinarily be sourced from underground and refined. However in today's world it might be attractive to sequester Carbon by making butane from CO2 and water. Is there a procedure available to make butane from CO2 and water. I understand the procedure would involve several steps.
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Converting CO2 and Water into Butane: A Complex Process
Yes, it is possible to convert CO2 and water into butane. However, the process is complex and requires significant energy input and specialized equipment. It's currently a subject of active research and development, with various approaches being explored.Here's a general overview of the steps involved:
Hydrogen Production: The first step involves producing hydrogen from water. This can be done through electrolysis, using renewable energy sources like solar or wind power.
Carbon Dioxide Reduction: The hydrogen is then reacted with carbon dioxide in a process called carbon dioxide reduction (CDR). This reaction produces carbon monoxide and water.
Fischer-Tropsch Synthesis: The carbon monoxide and hydrogen mixture is then subjected to Fischer-Tropsch synthesis, a catalytic process that converts the gases into a range of hydrocarbon products, including butane.
Challenges and Considerations:Energy Efficiency: The process of converting CO2 and water into butane requires significant energy input, particularly for the electrolysis step. Improving the energy efficiency of these processes is crucial for making the technology economically viable.
Catalyst Development: The choice of catalyst is critical for the efficiency and selectivity of the Fischer-Tropsch synthesis. Researchers are working to develop catalysts that favor the production of butane over other hydrocarbon products.
Scalability: Scaling up the process to produce butane in quantities sufficient for industrial or commercial use presents engineering challenges.
Cost: The overall cost of the process, including the energy input, equipment, and catalyst costs, is a major factor in determining its feasibility.
While the technology is still under development, advancements in renewable energy and materials science are making it more promising. However, it's important to note that producing butane from CO2 and water at a commercial scale is likely to be a complex and capital-intensive process.Would you like to learn more about specific research projects or technological advancements in this field?
Sources and related content
Hydrogen Production: Electrolysis | Department of EnergyCatalytic Conversion of CO and H2 into Hydrocarbons on the Cobalt Co(111) Surface: Implications for the Fischer–Tropsch Process | The Journal of Physical Chemistry C - ACS Publications
pubs.acs.org
Issues and challenges of Fischer–Tropsch synthesis catalysts - Frontiers
Selective conversion of CO2 to isobutane-enriched C4 alkanes over InZrOx-Beta composite catalyst | Nature Communications
Please take another look at the situation. I appreciate the suggestion that it might be possible to make butane directly from CO2 and water, but it appears that methanol is well established output of a CO2 capture process. Please assume your team is able to make methanol efficiently. How might you make butane from methanol?
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Converting Methanol to Butane: A Multi-Step Process
Converting methanol to butane is a complex process that involves multiple steps. It typically requires a combination of chemical reactions and refining techniques. Here's a general outline of the process:Methanol Dehydration: Methanol is dehydrated to form dimethyl ether (DME). This step involves removing a water molecule from methanol.
DME to Olefins (MTO): Dimethyl ether is converted to olefins (light hydrocarbons) through a process called methanol-to-olefins (MTO) conversion. This step involves a catalyst and specific reaction conditions.
Olefin Oligomerization: The olefins produced in the MTO process are then oligomerized, which means they are combined to form larger hydrocarbon molecules. Butane can be one of the products formed in this step.
Challenges and Considerations:Catalyst Optimization: The MTO and oligomerization steps require specific catalysts to ensure efficient conversion and selectivity towards butane.
Process Optimization: The entire process involves multiple steps with energy requirements and potential byproducts. Optimizing the conditions for each step is crucial for overall efficiency and cost-effectiveness.
Separation and Purification: The final product mixture may contain other hydrocarbons besides butane. Separation and purification steps are necessary to isolate the desired butane product.
Current Research and Development:Researchers are actively working on improving the efficiency and selectivity of these processes to make the conversion of methanol to butane more economically viable. Advances in catalyst technology and process optimization are key areas of focus.
In conclusion, while converting methanol to butane is technically feasible, it's a multi-step process with several challenges to overcome. Ongoing research and development efforts aim to make this process more efficient and commercially viable.
Thank you for your helpful review of this topic!
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You're welcome! I'm glad I could provide a comprehensive overview of the process for converting methanol to butane.
If you have any further questions or would like to explore other related topics, feel free to ask.
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in study of the discussion with Gemini in post #3, I note that DME is produced from methanol.
I wonder if it is possible to go directly to DME.
A reference for study of the process is a book recommended by Calliban and given it's own topic in the forum:
Title: Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy
the A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, and G. IK. Suryua Prakash
(c) 2018 Wiley VCH Germany
Available in print, ePDF, ePub and oBook
Note: butane is NOT listed in the index
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The other hydrocarbons have their uses as well. Propane is already used in heat pumps. I chose butane because it is slightly denser, allowing for a more compact system; and its vapour pressure is lower at the temperatures we are interested in. Compared to propane it therefore allows for a cheaper plant with a slightly better COP. But propane would work as well.
Propane is useful as a fuel, along with all other hydrocarbons. Also, these hydrocarbons can be reduced to alkenes through dehydrogenation. They then become valuable feedstocks for polymer production. Heavier fractions can become synthetic gasoline, which has an abundant market already.
So I don't think we need to waste too much time finding catalysts that have a high selectivity for butane. We will seperate the different hydrocarbons using fractional distillation and sell them to different customers. What we do need is a cheap source of energy that can then be used to make hydrogen through electrolysis. Cheap in the way that nuclear power used to be before the green lobby screwed it up. Cheap energy really is everything here.
Last edited by Calliban (2024-10-08 08:43:03)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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