What Are You Doing?

Dook · 2005-06-24 17:37:45

What Are You Doing?

The alarm announces that it's early, too damn early. You get up because you have to. You have to go to work where you bust your butt year after year because you so badly want to promote up to middle management. You do it to pay for the annual trip to Orlando or the kids braces and soccer league. Or to make the payments on the new SUV that you wanted so much only to have that good feeling fade away too soon. And you still have four more years of payments to make.

You don't have to get up in the morning, you choose to get up because some person decided that humans should work for a living and that they should desire and compete for objects. Do you really NEED an SUV, or do you really WANT an SUV?

Now I'm not telling you not to buy a big screen television or not to take the wife on a cruise but what I am telling you is that you need to realize that...it's just a television. An SUV is just a vehicle. Can you really say that doing these things you do each day are fulfilling? Are you doing what you are supposed to be doing here on the earth? After all this time you still haven't figured it out?

You raise your kids to be better competitors in the system than you. If they are rich or more powerful than you are then you should get some of the credit. Certainly God will realize that you had something to do with that, right?

Wrong. Instead teach them that choosing to be good is the only thing that really matters. Not Rolex's and designer suits. Televisions break and SUV's pollute the environment while a child with pure good in her heart never wants for herself when she can do for others. If one day your child gives a beggar a dollar and the beggar wastes it on a can of beer, tell her to give him another dollar the next day. No wrong falls upon her for doing what is right, the wrong is on the beggar who made the poor choice. God protects this choice because it is the key to your evolution. How quickly you move up the ladder is up to you. At some point that beggar will get hungry and use the money to buy a hamburger.

Find a moment alone, at work, at home when everyone else is out, or in the car in the morning while it is warming up. Forget about work, family, home, car...ignore all objects and just think for a minute, stare ahead but see nothing with your eyes. Recognize the thoughts that pop into your head, the trouble at work, with your spouse, or your friends problems. As the thoughts come in to your mind just think that you will deal with them later (you really spend all of your time on them) but this moment is for you. Now think about how everything must have come from somewhere. Matter does not just create itself. Imagine that God created it all for you, like a parent creates a home for a child to grow up in. Now imagine your real parent is there with you. Feel a presence. Now what do you think God would say to you at that moment if He chose to speak? Will He tell you that you are a good person? Will He say that you have more to do? Or would He ask you a simple question? "What are you doing?"

dicktice · 2005-06-24 19:53:43

Please define what you mean by "God."

Palomar · 2005-06-25 05:43:19

Now imagine your real parent is there with you. Feel a presence. Now what do you think God would say to you at that moment if He chose to speak? Will He tell you that you are a good person? Will He say that you have more to do? Or would He ask you a simple question? "What are you doing?"

*No disrespect intended to anyone.

Have mentioned before that I'm an agnostic. The popular consensus about God (which actually is a rather -- historically speaking -- recent concept, as monotheism goes [for longer periods in history folks were pan- or polytheistic, etc.]) seems to be that he is either a) vengeful, demanding, exacting and punishing (although we're reminded he is also loving and compassionate) or b) is not concerned with human affairs.

To me, neither option is very appealing.

I've mentioned before that when I consider the complexity of even just the human eye -- or when I'm outdoors with my telescope, beholding various cosmic splendors -- I wonder how there couldn't be a God. There must be.

Then when I look around at the human state of affairs...I wonder how there could be a God.

To be honest, overall it basically doesn't concern me much. Given what I've had to do for myself in life...it seems in some ways I'm my own god. That statement might shock and offend some; but it's an honest sentiment.

Also, given human nature in general, if there is a God I find it difficult to believe any human could truly apprehend the true nature of such an advanced Being. This is why I dismiss "theologians." Just as I would dismiss the notion that a cockroach could possibly understand the nature of merely a general automobile...much less how it was conceived, constructed, operates and is maintained.

Just my opinion.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-06-25 10:44:47

I've mentioned before that when I consider the complexity of even just the human eye -- or when I'm outdoors with my telescope, beholding various cosmic splendors -- I wonder how there couldn't be a God. There must be.
Then when I look around at the human state of affairs...I wonder how there could be a God.

So true.

I often find that people who've never actually studied science before really have little idea of the true grandeur of the universe. Even when dealing with apparently stochastic phenomena, the order of it all is a revelation. Personally, not being an agnostic, I find that the grandeur of the universe tends to strengthen my faith.

However, having studied physics and other sciences in depth, I know that the methods that allow us to see even these tiny hints of our universe's true nature do not themselves inherently imply or deny a creator diety. If physics equations that apply equally throughout the universe make no distinction between which way is up or the direction time is flowing at the moment, how can they distinguish between the presence or absence of a God?

Similarly, game theory provides strong indications that simple rules like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," "Give a small fraction of your income to charity," "Forgive those who trespass against you," etc., are actually strategically advantageous tactics for daily life. At the same time, it also reveals that Blaise Pascal's original return matrix arguments concerning the advantage of a belief in God are technically incomplete. Game theory agrees that Jesus did happen to be right once in a while, but tells no more about his true nature than physics does.

And don't even get me started on using "Intelligent Design" models of evolution to evangelize for religion. :sleep: It doesn't matter if chromosome 16 turns out to be a UPC bar code. It conveys nothing about God.

Science always allows for an alternative without devine intervention. That is its nature - the pursuit of knowledge, not faith. So, what about Dook's clearly religious statement about the uselessness of materialism?

Well, I suggest an exercise in faith.

Considering the words of Jesus apart from the concept of God (not technically possible, but if you're already apostate then what's the harm in a little heretical modalism? :;): ), we know that some of the behaviors he advocated are useful tactics even though they are apparently sacrificial in the short term. The proof of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a viable tactic waited two thousand years for the mathematical tools to handle non-zero sum return matrices. (The mathematics of the famous "Tit-for-Tat" proof was quite a breakthrough in modern mathematics.) Why not others as well that game theory simply hasn't caught up with yet? Surely "Beware of greed, for a man's life consists not in the abundance of things he possesses" could be equally valid.

So, why not try it in the field and see if it works? Run on out there and live the words of Jesus. True, it could backfire on you. Some biblical sayings can bring you to grief. (For example, I can't recommend "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" as a life tactic. That's nothing but trouble.) But if you don't have enough faith (courage? curiosity? poverty?) to try it, then you'll have to sit around and wait on the mathematical proof. That could take another two thousand years, in which time you could end up buying a lot of useless gadgets.

Palomar · 2005-06-25 10:52:16

So, why not try it in the field and see if it works? Run on out there and live the words of Jesus. True, it could backfire on you. Some biblical sayings can bring you to grief. (For example, I can't recommend "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" as a life tactic. That's nothing but trouble.) But if you don't have enough faith (courage? curiosity? poverty?) to try it, then you'll have to sit around and wait on the mathematical proof.

*Hi CM. I was raised in a very religious home, so I have that familiarity. Religion does nothing for me. Frankly, it brought me nothing but grief, hardship and disillusionment overall. Definitely not a good experience and something I don't care to repeat.

But that's just me.

Other folks enjoy their religious experiences/lives, it seems. To each their own, of course.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-06-25 11:11:44

So, why not try it in the field and see if it works?
*Hi CM. I was raised in a very religious home, so I have that familiarity. ... Frankly, it brought me nothing but grief, hardship and disillusionment overall. Definitely not a good experience and something I don't care to repeat.

Sorry to hear that, but I'm glad you're no longer in that situation.

Please clarify: Did you have any specific problems with christian ideas about greed and possessions during your childhood in a very religious household?

Palomar · 2005-06-25 11:22:29

Please clarify: Did you have any specific problems with christian ideas about greed and possessions during your childhood in a very religious household?

*Hi CM. Overall I'd have to say no. Religion aside, my father especially was not a very materialistic person to begin with -- even prior to his religious conversion (which followed my mother's). My personality and temperament is quite a lot like my father's, so I'm really not very materialistic either.

The one issue I had with their religious sentiment was the disdain and dismissal of aesthetics and certain forms of achievement. It was all dismissed by them as "corruptible crowns," something that will pass away (well...all things pass away eventually), etc., so don't bother. :-\

I'll never understand claims of loving a Creator yet dismissing/disdaining the Creation. It doesn't add up.

I am glad, though, that they didn't try to aggressively squash my interest in astronomy and science. Not sure how that happened, but small favors I guess.

--Cindy

Dook · 2005-06-25 14:48:44

I don't know what you've had to do for yourself in life but I think I know the feeling. You feel resentment that God is not there for you when you needed Him to talk to, if not help you.

As you mature you should see that they (your parents) are just humans, with human faults. They did their best even though for you it may not have been good enough. If you are a parent then surely you know of your own mistakes. Nobody gave you a 'How to be the Perfect Parent' book. Wouldn't you want your own child to forgive you?

Some people really need a very structured belief in God with rituals and pictures, confessions, and figureheads. Others, like me, see God best in a grassy pasture with birds flying by and clouds moving overhead. It didn't have to be. So many other places are acidic, grey, sophicating, dark, cold, and dead.

Any statement I make is absolutely NOT religious. Man created religion and it has replaced God. Why would God desire you to go to a church and pay another man to tell you what you should be doing?

Even children know right from wrong (not very young children though). For the most part adults do not commit wrongs because of the consequences either with the spouse or with the law. At some point each of us must decide that we will do what's right for the most people even if it is a burden to us and we receive no direct benefit. Do you think that we are here to invent new technology?

Hmm, lets see. God created the all matter in the universe and set the parameters so life could form and evolve into intelligent beings who grow everlasting souls. And the intelligent beings then ignore their souls and instead choose to praise themselves with fancy vehicles, expensive clothes, and mansions.

Fledi · 2005-06-25 15:44:46

It is difficult to understand why so many people are basically only interested in material wealth, that does not have any purpose other than making their lives another extra bit more comfortable.

And the while it is much more fullfilling to work on something to bring a good cause forward. It doesn't matter what this cause is, it isn't even important if you succeed on it personally, what is important is that you try and do your part to make things better for everyone.

dicktice · 2005-06-25 20:26:35

Material wealth leads to rocket science, which gets us off this planet "cradle" of ours. Volunteerism and underfunding "just don't cut it," as witness the latest solar-sail effort--no backup, assumptions of success where none had been every step of the way before. The principle of light propulsion could have been proven from the International Space Station, the success of which would certainly have pulled in funds from the wealthy who got that way only be investing in "sure things," if only to keep on looking good.

Palomar · 2005-06-25 20:50:13

*Hmmmmm. Perhaps it's a misunderstanding on my part, but are some people here implying that a belief in God means the believer is altruistic, compassionate, charitable and sociable; and, conversely, that agnostics or atheists can't be those things, but instead are consumed by greed and materialism?

Again, maybe I have a misunderstanding.

But if not, then I must say that viewpoint sets a dangerous precedent -- IMO. There is a popular American attitude that only people who believe in God (regardless of how religious they are otherwise) are more patriotic and "true Americans" than their agnostic or atheistic fellow citizens.

I've known people who profess belief in God (and who are not necessarily "religious") who are consumed with the desire for more wealth and more possessions. And I've known people who don't believe in God or who aren't sure God exists (agnostic) who are generally content with what they have and also could be defined as generous, charitable, etc.

-*-

As an aside, I've always been puzzled by the notion that to believe in God is the ultimate test of the citizen's worth. I'm not accusing anyone *here* of having that attitude; but I have seen it in real life. Since when did belief in God become THE standard of proof of good citizenship?

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2005-06-26 04:43:46

I believe in God because there exist things in science which we know we cannot know. Consider the quanta. It is possible to know the position and speed of a given particle. You can know one, but not the other. This is not to say that I am religious (though I believe in science to an almost religious extent), but merely that I find that God makes an applicable designation for certain things in life. The unknowable.

BTW, dicktice, photonic propulsion is proven (there's a cute experiment you can make, but I cannot remember what it's called), it's just that no one has built a proof of concept before. I personally would prefer to try to build a proof of concept Dusty-M2P2, but, I'm going off topic here.

Fledi · 2005-06-26 06:11:33

Cindy,

What I was talking about doesn't necessarily have to do anythning with either God or religion. It's just that I believe that poeple should use their abilities not only for making their personal lives more comfortable.
Those wealthy people dicktice spoke of who would finance a solar sail mission are an example of this.

dicktice · 2005-06-26 10:04:13

"Photonic propulsion" (is that going to be the finally adopted term for Solar Sailing in the future?) has NOT been proven--as a means for space transportation, at least. Prof. Gold (of Fred Hoyle association fame) before he died, published a denial based upon consideration of what would happen in microgravity conditions to photons (of visible light in this case) from the Sun, by reflecting totally from a perfectly reflecting essentially massless surface (the sail) and in so doing not impart reactive thrust. Okay, I "believe" in the principle of Light Sailing--a term which appeals to my (ahem) romantic nature--but that's because I reall desire it to be possible. The principle still has to be proven in space, as the Planetary Society amateurs have just attempted ... and failed by encumbering the demonstration with a conglomeration of unproven hardware, that had nothing to do with their actual objective. What a shame, to have gone to all that unnecessary trouble when it could have been demonstrated by now from aboard the ISS. A case of "the cart before the horse," in spades! Amateurs do, and I'm one of 'em, do it all the time.

If what someone talks about "doesn't necessarily have to do anything with either God or religion." then why ruin the argument by bringing the subject up? I have known of quite a few wealthy people over the years, and (except for those infamous despots who are allowed to usurp funds accrued by so-called "legal" government actions to subjugate the people under them, for the sake--I admit it--of preserving their own lives and comfort) these fortunates don't crave comfort, per se: They look for fame and approval, and my contention is that if they could be convinced of anything new that won't threaten their wealth and reputation, they'll go for it. The trouble is, as witness our own (I won't call it bickering, but close to it) discussions within the Mars Society concerning how to go about getting off-and-on the planet economically, safely and routinely: Who, in their right mind, would invest in any of these schemes? We should show how some of the more promising schemes could be achieved, "from square one." For example, that promising new (to me, at least) rotating tether scheme, could be reverse-engineered, phase by phase, right back to the maglev launching means, with each phase representing an engineering achievement capable of being exploited, moneywise.

Fledi · 2005-06-26 11:21:25

You're right on that, dicktice, it is of course a lot of work until one has a detailed scheme and you have to begin somewhere. For the rotating tether that somewhere seems to be to make a 3D simulation of the tether plus an editor to put various masses on it at varous speeds and positions and look how it behaves.
Then lots of things can be tested out for a few 100 dollars by buying a few kilograms of high strength tethers (already did some internet shopping). But let's finish item one first, is difficult enough to model the tether mathematically with sufficient accuracy.
The whole scheme will have to be gradually refined along the way, it will be years and years of work, but that's what keeps it exciting.
The good thing about it is that it's more supplementary to reusable (sub-) orbital space planes, so research into those concepts by others will also make this one more reasonable.

C M Edwards · 2005-06-26 13:01:28

Dook, you wrote:

Any statement I make is absolutely NOT religious. Man created religion and it has replaced God. Why would God desire you to go to a church and pay another man to tell you what you should be doing?

and

Do you think that we are here to invent new technology?

I think that the first is a charming set of religious opinions. :;):

As for the second, my answer is "yes", or I wouldn't waste time doing it. I only take issue with those who believe that making new gadgets is all we're here to do.

Cindy, you wrote:

*Hmmmmm. Perhaps it's a misunderstanding on my part, but are some people here implying that a belief in God means the believer is altruistic, compassionate, charitable and sociable; and, conversely, that agnostics or atheists can't be those things, but instead are consumed by greed and materialism?

I'm fortunate enough to know that's not true. However, there are an awful lot of little christian soldiers out there who believe that dehumanizing the enemy makes them better fighters.

Several thousand years of military history assures me they're correct. What that has to do with altruism, compassion and charity, though, I have no idea.

Dick, you wrote:

Material wealth leads to rocket science

and there was never a truer word spoken. But you also wrote:

Volunteerism and underfunding "just don't cut it," as witness the latest solar-sail effort--no backup, assumptions of success where none had been every step of the way before.

I wasn't aware that volunteerism had been given enough of a chance - or that there were even enough steps involved - to be able to make that statement.

Dook · 2005-06-26 15:36:59

I believe that God is absolutely compassionate. You can sin your entire life and honestly repent the day before you die and I believe you will be accepted.

Charitable? Sociable? No, I believe God does not interfere with our choices, good or bad.

Those who try to sell God (you have to pay to go to church) to others follow a very old standard of traditions. I would argue that the those traditions have actually replaced God. Those people think that because they go to church every Sunday that they are closer to God and somehow qualified to judge others but a busy person who sacrifices their time to help out a stranger has them beat.

I don't think that you have to believe in God...but I will still try to get you to come around. Also why would an agnostic be good? Whats the point? You can lie/cheat/steal your way through life without fear, except from the law. I would say that if you choose to help someone in need when it does not benefit you (it may actually cost you something-time, money...) and there are no repercussions to you, well, something is causing you to choose good. Maybe it's your conscience? And just maybe your conscience is your soul trying to tell you something?

Josh Cryer · 2005-06-26 16:33:29

dicktice, definitely, agreed 100%, practical solar sailing has not been shown to work, yet. Just sayin' the effect is a known scientific fact. In the end solar sailing may not scale to what we want (though I personally think it will).

clark · 2005-06-27 05:55:10

I think the concept of God is a good thing, the same way I think the idea of going to Mars is a good thing.

Both require that an individual believe in something that they cannot see, hear, or touch.

Belief is a powerful motivator to do great things.

dicktice · 2005-06-27 06:37:41

Belief in Mars is a good thing: The Romans had Him to blame war upon, and it's only right that we should let Him shoulder the blame for us as well. Belief in Jupiter, on the other hand, may come into conflict with the God thing, so I think I'll leave that to the deeper religious thinkers amongst us to sort out.

clark · 2005-06-27 06:50:12

Astrology, the true religion!

Palomar · 2005-06-27 06:55:41

*To be honest, God is irrelevant to me. If God exists, fine; and if not, well... {{shrugs}}

Yes, sometimes I wonder.

Is the conscience the soul? I don't know. Can't prove the soul's existance.

As for ethics, yes: I have a code of ethics. I believe "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" is a terrific ethic and likely the greatest of them all. Everyone wants to be treated as they'd like to be treated, so why not extend the favor?

Fear of the law? Sure, that's a deterrant -- for some folks more than others. I do have a conscience, however; and my nature also runs rather contrary to violence, cheating others, being overtly selfish, etc. I am, by nature, rather generous, warm-hearted, etc.

But this gets more complex and I'm reluctant to get too personal.

Whether or not God exists doesn't really matter much to me. I've not seen enough proof to warrant belief, I don't feel I'm depriving myself of something, etc. Que sara sara (not being flippant, but that sort of sums it up).

As for past experiences: I've forgiven various issues and yes, understand that my folks were only human.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-06-27 07:00:02

I for one just hope God dosen't find me irrelevant. :laugh:

Echus_Chasma · 2005-07-11 14:12:50

Has anyone read the book 'The Pagan Christ'?

Mad Grad Student · 2005-07-15 00:08:55

I believe that God is absolutely compassionate. You can sin your entire life and honestly repent the day before you die and I believe you will be accepted.
Charitable? Sociable? No, I believe God does not interfere with our choices, good or bad.
Those who try to sell God (you have to pay to go to church) to others follow a very old standard of traditions. I would argue that the those traditions have actually replaced God. Those people think that because they go to church every Sunday that they are closer to God and somehow qualified to judge others but a busy person who sacrifices their time to help out a stranger has them beat.
I don't think that you have to believe in God...but I will still try to get you to come around. Also why would an agnostic be good? Whats the point? You can lie/cheat/steal your way through life without fear, except from the law. I would say that if you choose to help someone in need when it does not benefit you (it may actually cost you something-time, money...) and there are no repercussions to you, well, something is causing you to choose good. Maybe it's your conscience? And just maybe your conscience is your soul trying to tell you something?

Well, Dook, I sure hope that you're right. The trouble is, how do I know that you're right? Can you offer me (or any of us New Martians for that matter) any reason to believe in your religious ideologies? It ought to be a simple question, but I've never asked it to a highly religious person without having them drop every line in the book to avoid it. Does religion have a foundation? You tout belief, belief, faith, belief, but is there any reason behind it? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just want to know.

Sometimes I feel as though it's a deep character flaw that keeps my mind open to religion. I scoff at ufologists, astrologers, and those basket-cases who claim NASA has tried to cover up evidence of life on Mars, but are religious advocates any different? Please, don't get angry, I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I think that's a legitimate question. Both astrologers and evangelicals claim that you simply wouldn't understand what they know, that you simply must suspend all disbelief and accept their word as fact, no questions asked. And yet we deride one group as being a pseudoscientific diversion from the real world and hail the other as being the path to salvation. Is that right?

I suppose it is the right thing to keep an open mind on this subject, but I seriously wonder about these issues. It bugs me, on a very deep, spiritual level. I agree, the more one understands about science the more one realizes how miraculous the universe is and the more wondrous every tiny event in life becomes, but is that a good reason to believe in God? The more I think about it, the more I keep thinking that we really could have gotten to where we are now without any divine intervention. That of course doesn't rule out the existance of God by a long-shot, but it does make me wonder.

More than anything else, I would love to believe in God. It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination for me at all to imagine that he/she/it really exists, but it's the "why?" that's the kicker. Dook, have you ever really asked yourself if God exists? Have you ever recieved a satisfactory answer? If you have, please let me know, because this issue is bugging the living crap out of me. Even now, I remain cautiously optimistic that there is a God, but I always wonder if I'm not just succumbing to my desire to have such a belief.

Nothing could be less irrelevant in my opinion than whether or not God exists. If we could cleanly resolve the issue one way or the other it would be a revelation greater than anything I could imagine. Unfortunately, I'm doubtful that that will ever happen. Is God really out there or is he just a figmant of our collective imagination? I don't know. I hate the Nichze-esque argument that God either exists or doesn't based on whether or not we believe in him. Can you will a tree to exist or disappear? I for one can't, I'm almost positive that you can't do that with God either.

Whether or not God exists, I suppose I wouldn't really live my life any differently. I might pray more often if I were more confident in God's existance, but that would be about it. I make an effort to live each day to the fullest and do as much good as possible; I wouldn't change that based on a resolution to this question. But I still want to know, you know? Gosh, I feel like one of those SETI scientists I'm always heckling. They have no reason to believe that they'll ever pick up a signal and, IMHO, they don't have a snowball's chance on Venus of doing so. Likewise, I keep my mind open to religion and talk at length to die-hard supporters of the ideology, and yet I wonder how this is any better. I'm quite certain that asking these questions does not make me a bad person, and I will defend that to the ends of the Earth, but there are people who get to me sometimes who try to make me think otherwise.

If nothing else, this is a fun subject to discuss since I get a chance to arm-wave aimlessly and have people listen. Usually I try to cut down on arm-waving as much as possible, but with religion it's tough to make any argument that doesn't involve sketchy support. Makes you wonder... :;):

Astrology, the true religion!

Oh, I hope not.

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