New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2022-07-03 06:57:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

This new topic is launched as Mars_B4_Moon brought older discussions about life on Mars back into view.

This is happening as discussions of (and concerns about) borders on Earth are active both inside and outside the forum.

One of the posters from years ago in the NewMars forum offered the view that borders would necessarily be set up between Mars settlements of competing Earth nations.

The cultures of those settlements will necessarily be different, and the human tendency to set up check points for travel and exchange of goods and services will continue on Mars.

I see no reason whatsoever to hope for a community on Mars free of borders, or free of conflict for that matter.

The example of human presence on Antarctica may be instructive as an example, because conditions there are so difficult, and cooperation with other outposts so beneficial.  However, as the number of humans on Mars increases, it will be normal and expected to introduce check points between communities.

The risks of biological contamination are nontrivial, so those risks must be addressed.

The psychological risks of settlements "growing apart" are non-trivial as well, so it might make sense to recognize that risk early on, and try to put into place regular rotation of personnel from one settlement to another.

The present astonishing phenomenon, of humans in a successful nation on Earth separating themselves into to hostile camps is a warning sign for any humans who might hope for peaceful, productive lives on Mars.

(th)

Offline

#2 2022-07-03 08:30:57

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Humans have the potential for goodness and coopertion but also potential for greed and violence, to ignore either the good side or bad is to ignore the truth of humanity.

In this atmosphere with Ukrainians suffering, Tigray of Somalia-Ethiopia people, the islamo attempt at the genocide of Yezidi and many massacres and wars across the new space world would probably build their forts or control imports or dangerous unforeseen things being imported into their Biospheres. Maybe outside the Domes would be different than inside the Domes. Even without guns up there it soon could become the 'Wild West'

There were two Treaties the Outer Space Treaty and the Moon Treaty the Moon Treaty or Moon Agreement not been ratified by any state that engages in self-launched human spaceflight  the United States, Russia or its predecessor the Soviet Union, or the People's Republic of China since its creation on December 18, 1979, and thus it has little to no relevancy in international law. Donald Trump more or less ignored the Moon Treaty. U.S. President Donald Trump additionally released an executive order called "Encouraging International Support for the Recovery and Use of Space Resources." The order emphasizes that "the United States does not view outer space as a 'global commons" and calls the Moon Agreement "a failed attempt at constraining free enterprise." http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=55513

I think its great the United States is leading space but if I lead a rich industrial nation or kingdom on Earth I am not sure I would sign the 'Artemis Accords' first I am unsure about Gateway or using the Moon as a stepping stone to Mars works. Secondly I'm not a fan of this whole multi cultural multi lingual diversity thing and I would outright refuse to work with Jihad Theocratic Sharia Law nations aka United Arab Emirates and Bahrain or any other jihad fatwa blasphemy nation, these guys were even giving money to ISIS. If I was somehow magically transported into the future and I was walking Mars and I came across some guy shouting at me in Arabic, he's throwing arms and shapes trying to block my path or attack I might be ready to kill. I'm not sure I would even talk, maybe would outright refuse to use a digital AI translator for Arabic as I want nothing to do with its culture or language, there might be no communication other than hand signs or gestures but I would be prepared to kill that person, however I would not act first and instead act in self-defense. I do not strike first, maybe because some world mars police satellite might be watching, maybe to be on the 'morally correct' side. I would hope for a peaceful, and productive Mars but in an anarchist, colonial, land grab which might try claim all I understand the good and bad of human history and human nature. I personally believe exporting Theocratic system that hates infidels into space to be a massive mistake, Russia, the USA, Space-X and Japan might be remembered for helping lay roads which began to export this jihadi Moongod al-Lah around the solar system and exporting islamism into space. The sad thing about the muslim is they themselves are often victims of islam, muslims as inviduals sometimes can have good quality but islam is a backward, hateful system, this islam was once only confined to small regions in Arabia, as the cancer of islamist thought expanded it destroyed all the advanced pre islamic cultures. This islamism was once confined to medina, mecca, even in the future their king or sultan or Emperor or “caliph” which means “successor” would be looking to expand islamic influence, at this stage if I seen islamism attacking me on Mars I might start helping people design some rocket or laser to strike Earth and turn Mecca into a smoking crater, however since I'm a pacifist I would try work by myself or with a team who would hit Mecca when nobody was there to cause minimum loss of life, a pacifist person may not always be peaceful think of a Shaolin Monk happy to attend his garden until... The idiots obsessed with multi cultural-ism need to admit islamism did not spread out of Mecca and Medina by way of kisses and flowers, I for one would outright refuse to ever sign an agreement to preserve outer space islamist heritage even under threats of death, they can die first. Any islamist nation has no business looking for any information regarding the location or nature of science projects I am doing and nature of space-based activities. With another country Australia signing and ratifying both the Moon Treaty as well as the Artemis Accords, there has been a discussion if they can be harmonized as some kind of Outer Space Solar System Law. Another critic Russia has condemned the 'Artemis Accords' which was expected but condemned it as a blatant attempt to create international space law that favors the United States, the Russians seem to be a space power in decline but there might be other nations like Serbia who will condemn the Accords for their own political reasons, the French President Macron signed the Artemis Accords in June 2022.

Russians and USSR Politics of Communism was the big rival to the United States, during their Soviet propaganda years used to display Pyramiden, an abandoned Soviet coal mining settlement on the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard which has become a tourist destination, they tried to show a rich Norway the best of the USSR. even after the fall of the USSR this town did not fall, still under operation and rent in year 1996, a flight crashed on the approach to Svalbard Airport creating a massive fireball with the loss of 141 lives, it was the straw that broke the camels back. The town had value for Russia and nine million tonnes of coal were extracted from the mine. Mining ceased on 1998 and the settlement closed that same year. You can still go visiting the place but Pyramiden is a ghost town, frozen in time like Chernobyl, a weird time when Soviet Russia owned something inside Norway now frozen inside the Arctic North Pole. China spent many decades removed from world affairs, it once lead and was a center of civilization and then for centuries it was behind other industrial powers but it once again has come onto the world stage, it signed the Svalbard Treaty in 1925, and since the early 1990s, Chinese scholars have conducted Arctic and Antarctic expeditions. Since 1984, China has been sending national scientific expeditions annually to this white continent and the surrounding seas. Even now with Russia and the United States having worked so close and built the International Space Station we  see new wars, imperialism and see relations now in decline. What is to become of the Moon cities, big failed multi cultural projects with empty radiated BLM statues, empty Mosques abandoned on a landscape all for the idea for an American multi-cultural century? Ukraine signed the Artemis Accords it is a country invaded parts of the South East under different occupation wanting new break away governments,  'Isle of Man' signed the Accords...maybe they are getting desperate? it is nothing more than a money laundering tax haven like Cayman Islands, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-03 08:48:05)

Offline

#3 2022-07-03 10:45:56

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,800
Website

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

All habitats on Mars have to be paid for by someone, so there's not going to be any true public property. And private property has borders as a rule: if it doesn't have borders it simply isn't private.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

Offline

#4 2022-07-03 11:16:09

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

For Terraformer re #3 ... thank you for your contribution to the topic!

For Mars_B4_Moon ... thank you for your lengthy and detailed mini-essay on the subject.

For Terraformer ... a group of private citizens have the power to define land as "public".

I don't know if that practice exists in the United Kindom, but it is common practice in the United States.

My guess is that the history of the British Isles may preclude the custom of "public" land that is well established here.

However, since this is a part of English history where my knowledge is insufficient, I'd welcome a history pointer .... There MUST be libraries full of the history of all parts of what is/was the United Kindom.

Perhaps there is some "public" land in there somewhere.

When European explorers stuck their flags in various lands, they weren't kidding .... ** All ** that land was the "property" of the King.

In fact (recalling the time of Magellan) the kinds of Spain and Portugal literally divided the entire ** world ** between them.

Those were days of great ambition.

Perhaps we'll see the like in coming days, as various male humans (and the occasional female) take possession of celestial bodies, without regard to any quaint ideas of people on Earth.

(th)

Offline

#5 2022-07-03 14:06:13

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

I think its doubtful.  If Peter Zeihan is correct about the collapse of globalism, the US and maybe a few allies are going to be the only countries with sufficient resources to attempt Mars colonisation.  There will be individual colonists from other places, but they will function under the unitary authority of whoever organises the effort, which will probably be US.  There will be different cultural flavours and local government, but hard borders are unlikely.  Mars will probably have an American flavour initially, but with the reality of living on Mars being so different to living on Earth, there would be rapid cultural divergence.  Mars tends to favour very close nit communities.  It doesn't have the millions of square miles of free arable land that the American frontier once had to offer.  If other communities exist, there will be a strong incentive for trade without barriers.  Survival will depend upon it.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-03 14:23:37)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

#6 2022-07-07 08:42:07

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Justice Department Sues Arizona Over Proof of Citizenship Requirement for Voter Registration
https://www.voanews.com/a/justice-depar … 46532.html

SpaceNut commented in the FreeChat Immigration section

in regard to becoming 'Americanized'

The application process is typically 8 months.
Of course the correct question also has to do with naturalization which on average is just 14 months.

I have seen first generations that still refuse to speak English aka American, does that mean they are not Americanized?

They have a legal birth certificate as being American so what can you do then?

I do not believe that this changes anything for how many are coming Nicaragua authorizes Russian troops to deploy to Nicaragua

video of why californians are fleeing to Mexico and other places with in the south

seems like rising fuel cost in the south was due to a change in demand

U.S., China at Odds Over Moon Takeover Accusation
https://www.flyingmag.com/u-s-china-at- … ccusation/

China slams NASA chief’s claim that it is planning to 'take over' the Moon
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-slams-n … 38864.html
China has denied NASA Administrator Bill Nelson's claims that the East Asian country is planning to “take over” the Moon.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-07 08:58:38)

Offline

#7 2022-07-26 02:14:14

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Will militarization spread to the Moon and Mars? if it spreads across the Solar system will it even go beyond.

And how relevant would a past Flag on Mars be, a Martian flag its ideas, its color, philosophy, its deeper meaning and principles? Would these ideas fade as new peoples and machine arrived?

and what of future colonies, perhaps generation ships go to Alpha Centauri and Beyond, would we even be human anymore or transhuman engineered to colonize the stars

Or perhaps these explorers and colonists arriving on worlds of other stars they would go to a world already having some form of life, maybe even intelligent like Dolphins, Pigs, Monkeys or Pet Cats and Dogs and wild Elephants show intelligence.
If there was already life there upon arrival would the colonization ships be confined to some hotter uninhabited volcanic island or maybe restricted to the Polar ice caps.

On Earth there is Marie Byrd Land (MBL) is an unclaimed region of the South Pole Antarctica. With an area of 1,610,000 km2 (620,000 sq mi), it is the largest unclaimed territory on Earth. It was named after the wife of American naval officer Richard E. Byrd, who explored the region in the early 20th century
https://web.archive.org/web/2020/https: … AR_ID:9395

and what of the Law sent to the Moon.

The primary stated objective of the 1979 Moon Treaty is "to provide the necessary legal principles for governing the behavior of states, international organizations, and individuals who explore celestial bodies other than Earth, as well as administration of the resources that exploration may yield."
https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewc … ontext=elr

Russia or the USSR tested a weapon design in space, China and the USA tested ASAT weapons, then India destroyed one of its own satellites, while Russia recently destroyed a satellite creating a cloud of space debris

During the Trump admin officials said the capabilities displayed in China’s landing a rover on the far side of the moon and other firsts could pose a serious threat to American and allied space operations.

Since the invasion of Ukraine the focus has gone back to watching Russia once again.

Space Law - Treaties & Principles

United Nations Office For Outer Space
http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/s … reaty.html

The Outer Space Treaty provides the basic framework on international space law, including the following principles:

    the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind;
    outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States;
    outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;
    States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;
    the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;
    astronauts shall be regarded as the envoys of mankind;
    States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities;
    States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and
    States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.

The True South proposal was designed by Evan Townsend. The flag has the following meaning:
    Horizontal stripes of navy and white represent the long days and nights at Antarctica's extreme latitude. In the center, a lone white peak erupts from a field of snow and ice, echoing those of the bergs, mountains, and pressure ridges that define the Antarctic horizon. The long shadow it casts forms the unmistakable shape of a compass arrow pointed south, an homage to the continent's legacy of exploration. Together, the two center shapes create a diamond, symbolizing the hope that Antarctica will continue to be a center of peace, discovery, and cooperation for generations to come
https://oceanwide-expeditions.com/blog/ … antarctica
The True South design has been used by National Antarctic Programs, Antarctic nonprofits, and expedition teams. It has flown at more than a dozen research stations across Antarctica as well as in locations on every other continent.

an older article

Where Does Trump's 'Space Force' Fit in the International Agreement on Peaceful Use of Space?
https://www.space.com/40959-trump-space … space.html


The USA is not the only nation to have military in space, after the Presidency of Donald Trump came  Joe Biden Kamala Harris Admin and they gave the new branch of the military their support, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki confirmed that the Biden administration would not revisit the decision to establish the Space Force.  The NewYorker magazine and its Select All which shuttered and folded into the broadened "Intelligencer" news site commented on the Space Force. it Described the Space Force in a November 2021 article as "Trump's most misunderstood creation," also attributing the negative reception of the Space Force on the impact of military science fiction on American culture, as well as on the public image of Donald Trump at the time of its creation.

In 2020 the Artemis Accords were signed, while not mentioning the treaty, they are nevertheless challenging the treaty. At the time of the signing of the accords U.S. President Donald Trump additionally released an executive order called "Encouraging International Support for the Recovery and Use of Space Resources." The order emphasizes that "the United States does not view outer space as a 'global commons" and calls the Moon Agreement "a failed attempt at constraining free enterprise."
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=55513

With Australia signing and ratifying both the Moon Treaty as well as the Artemis Accords, there has been a discussion if they can be harmonized.
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au … s-accords/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-26 02:20:21)

Offline

#8 2022-09-03 10:31:18

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Russia previews its post-ISS space station
https://www.engadget.com/russia-space-s … 49906.html
ROSS only exists as a model so far.

Offline

#9 2022-09-16 03:23:28

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Antarctica’s Nebulous Future
https://arichlife.com.au/antarcticas-nebulous-future/

Donald Trump Reportedly Wanted to Trade Puerto Rico for Greenland in ‘a large real estate deal’ with Denmark
https://people.com/politics/donald-trum … greenland/

Offline

#10 2022-09-26 09:42:37

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Antarctica, research at the South Pole and the ISS are interesting examples of people and cultures working together but did they in their own unique ways have border? Brazil participated on the International Space Station and then stopped 1997–2007, ESA Director-General Jean-Jacques Dordain once  his agency was ready to propose to the other four partners that China, India and South Korea be invited to join the ISS, the South Koreans had an astronaut visit as a Space Flight participant, Chinese personnel are banned from ISS by an amendment to NASA's budget passed by Congress and India has been a non-alligned nation and decided to go it alone with its own space program, training is happening at ISRO's Human Space Flight Centre and Glavcosmos, Hindu Indian gov signed an agreement with a company which is a subsidiary of the Russian state corporation Roscosmos. The Station became a site for tourists although some prefer the term private spaceflight participant United States Dennis Tito, South Africa Mark Shuttleworth, United States Gregory Olsen, Iran/United States Anousheh Ansari,  Hungary/United States Charles Simonyi, in the future there might be more flights to LEO or the Station companies like Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic, Space Adventures, Axiom Space and Space X are now selling space tourist seats. Back on Earth at the South Pole a total of 42 countries signatories to the Antarctic Treaty, operate seasonal summer and year-round research stations on the continent, there are also territorial claims which are mostly ignored by other nations and South Polar Subantarctic research stations that are not on the Continent of Antarctica but part of the wider Antarctic Research Survey. According to the Outer Space Treaty, on the ISS the United States and Russia are legally responsible for all modules they have launched.

White Desert creates ‘leave no trace’ camp in Antarctica
https://globetrender.com/2022/09/23/whi … ntarctica/

Elon Musk Announces Starlink Internet Active Across All 7 Continents, Including Antarctica
https://www.republicworld.com/science/s … eshow.html

Offline

#11 2022-10-18 12:27:40

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Radical Green Ideas are seen as Holding Tech back on Earth but on Mars 'Green' and 'Waters' will be givers of life.

Mars Borders could have very fragile but important made made eco-systems?  a Farm on Mars much like an Earth system science research facility, materially closed ecological system, or vivarium.

'Should Forests, Rivers and Lakes have Legal Rights on Par with People? Interview with Pella Thiel on the future of nature protection.'
https://farsight.cifs.dk/should-nature- … al-rights/

Offline

#12 2023-03-04 16:44:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Between October and January, apprehensions and encounters at the Canadian border have jumped nearly 850% compared to the same four months a year ago, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Swanton sector.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-medi … h-historic

Offline

#13 2023-04-01 05:26:08

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Arctic Council under pressure as Norway readies for Russian handoff
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ar … 023-03-28/

'Other nations, including China and India, are official observers to the council's activities.'

The Arctic Council will not resume cooperation with Russia
https://www.easternherald.com/2023/03/2 … th-russia/

Arktika 2007 was a 2007 expedition in which Russia performed the first ever crewed descent to the ocean bottom at the North Pole, as part of research related to the 2001 Russian territorial claim, one of many territorial claims in the Arctic, made possible, in part, because of Arctic shrinkage. As well as dropping a titanium tube containing the Russian flag, the submersibles collected specimens of Arctic flora and fauna and apparently recorded video of the dives. The "North Pole-35" (abbreviated as "NP-35") manned drifting ice station was established.


Russia plants flag under N Pole
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6927395.stm


Lindsay Parson, (head of the Law of the Sea Group at Southampton's National Oceanography Centre in the UK) stated that Denmark (via Greenland) and Canada would have equally good chances of claiming the territory on these grounds — which both nations have stated they will do — as the Lomonosov Ridge extends from Russia across the Arctic to Greenland and northern Canada.[39] Denmark claimed that the 1,500-kilometre (930 mi) Lomonosov Ridge was its property, the BBC's World Service radio reported early on August 12. Danish science minister Helge Sander told reporters: "The preliminary investigations done so far are very promising. There are things suggesting that Denmark could be given the North Pole.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.j … ole112.xml

The North Pole,

k8yy2y.jpg

many claims

https://pic8.co/sh/sbZmkc.jpeg

https://files.catbox.moe/k8yy2y.jpg

Offline

#14 2023-04-09 08:50:45

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Russia loses election to three UN bodies over Ukraine
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai … 7726a6db3b

Japan, Russia strike salmon-fishing deal off Hokkaido
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20230327_14/

Scientists in Arctic race to preserve 'ice memory'
https://mb.com.ph/2023/4/4/scientists-i … ice-memory

Offline

#15 2023-06-12 08:02:21

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

A brain drain from the more oppressive area

Exodus of scientists from Russia has passed 50,000 since 2018 as more pack their bags to go

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/exo … 47.article

Offline

#16 2023-06-14 10:54:35

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

U.N. opens “window of opportunity” to improve space governance

https://spacenews.com/u-n-opens-window- … overnance/

Offline

#17 2023-07-09 11:35:36

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Most research at the South Pole is done for the benefit of world science, Antarctica research stations are facilities where scientists and academics conduct studies there are 70 permanent research stations that operate.  At the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States is a treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, 1933, during the Seventh International Conference of American States. The Convention codifies the declarative theory of statehood as accepted as part of customary international law.At the conference, United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Secretary of State Cordell Hull declared the Good Neighbor Policy, which opposed U.S. armed intervention in inter-American affairs.  Breach of a country's borders or territorial disputes on Earth pose a threat to a state's very sovereignty and the right as a person of international law. In addition, territorial disputes are sometimes brought to the International Court of Justice. The South Pole claims now not as legit since the Antarctic Treaty, nations and kingdoms have claims, Argentina, Australia, Chile, New Zealand, Norway, the French and the British – have made eight territorial claims in Antarctica.


'British Antarctic Territory'
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3171779383/view

the return of the USSR Cold War politics and mercenary

Video appears to show Wagner Group troops preparing to leave Africa, suggesting a purge by Moscow, report says
https://www.yahoo.com/news/video-appear … 31453.html

NASA’s Ambitious Moon Mining Plans for the Next Decade
https://www.gizmochina.com/2023/06/29/n … am-decade/

China plans to drill the moon for minerals, say space chiefs
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chin … -92nlrwt7f

A Solar System wide stock exchange and Private Mega Corp Government?

'private space colonies will not be dystopian hellscapes'

https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/ … ellscapes/

'Mark Whittington, who writes frequently about space policy'

The idea of pulling up stakes and moving to a space colony to start a new life is a compelling one. SpaceX’s Elon Musk wants to build a city of a million people on Mars. Jeff Bezos wants to build free-flying colonies, first envisioned by Gerard K. O’Neill, that can sustain even more people. Space colonies are the stuff of science fiction dreams, invoking the settlement of the American West.

Not so fast, according to a story in Scientific American. Space colonies founded by private businesses are likely, in the story’s view, to be dystopian hells. The theory is that space colonists will be subject to the whims of their tech overlords. Free from the restraints of earthly laws, the founders of the first communities of humans beyond the home planet will do with their subjects as they like. The story cites accusations of racial discrimination and sexual harassment at tech companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin to buttress his case.

It even invokes Werner Von Braun in his brief against private space colonies. Von Braun, before he moved to America and became a champion of civil rights in the Jim Crow South, served the Nazi regime, even joining the Nazi Party and taking rank in the SS, though no evidence exists that he agreed with Nazi racial ideology. It seems to imply that space colonies could resemble the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp, where people were literally worked to death to build V-2 rockets.

The story seems also to have problems with what it called “American superiority in space” and resource extraction on the moon. It mischaracterizes the former, since the Artemis Accords, started by NASA, stipulate a regime of cooperation on the space frontier and not the dominance of any one nation. Why there’s disdain for mining the moon or other celestial bodies is left as an exercise for the reader.

The story’s thesis encounters one problem. If Musk’s Mars colony or Bezos’s free-flying space cities become latter-day East Berlins, who would want to move there? Space colonies are going to need the best and the brightest to become their citizens in order to survive and thrive. No one is going to sign up willingly to become denizens of outer space gulags.

Real-world experience on Earth proves the point. The United States is not a perfect country by any means. Yet millions of people, either legally or otherwise, aspire to move to that country to enjoy its freedom and economic opportunities. Neither Russia nor China can make the same boast.

Elon Musk has opened his mind about how he envisions his Mars city being governed. Far from being a company town ruled as a dictatorship, he envisions a direct democracy, much like an Ancient Greek polis, in which everyone decides government policy. He believes that representative democracy gives too much power to “special interests.”

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-07-09 12:00:28)

Offline

#18 2023-08-16 13:17:19

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

India-Pak should talk on Kashmir issue honestly: Farooq Abdullah
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit … 690064.cms

The entire Korean Peninsula claimed by both North and South Korea as legit rulers.

Falkland Islands or in Spanish Islas Malvinas, there was a war over the Falklands, the British military responded to an Argentine invasion and took control of Falkland Islands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, a war in 1982 over two British dependent territories, hundred killed, thousands wounded, Argentina having far greater losses.  Loss included  Destroyers, Frigates, Cruisers,  Fighter-aircraft, Fighter-bombers, Attack and transport helicopters, Landing ships, Landing craft, Patrol Boats and a Submarine.

the Golan Heights claimed by both Israel and Syria. Since the Six-Day War of 1967, the western two-thirds of the Golan Heights has been occupied and administered by Israel. There is a Druze town Majdal Shams, one kilometer east of the town center is Shouting Hill, where residents used to line up with bullhorns to make small-talk with relatives on the Syrian controlled side before the advent of cellphones.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/worl … .html?_r=1

David Gareja monastery complex is claimed by both Georgia and Azerbaijan
http://hitchhikershandbook.com/2014/05/ … x-georgia/

North Rock the 'Grey Zone' or in French 'Roche North' is an offshore rock its ownership disputed between the Canadian province of New Brunswick and the U.S. state of Maine as part of the USA-Canadian territorial and maritime boundary

Navassa Island a small uninhabited island in the Caribbean Sea claimed by both Haiti and the United States, the Unorganized unincorporated territory.
https://fws.gov/refuge/navassa-island

Libya claims 32,000 square kilometers of southeastern Algeria, south of the Libyan town of Ghat.
https://sovereignlimits.com/boundaries/ … libya-land

The Killers are an American rock band formed in Las Vegas

Georgia, the Former Soviet State

The Killers Apologize After Receiving Backlash for Bringing a Russian Fan on Stage in Georgia
https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-ne … n-georgia/

Booing and walkouts after the Killers tell Georgia audience Russian is their ‘brother’
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ … ir-brother

Offline

#19 2023-09-23 11:17:42

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Azerbaijan arrests anti-war figures
https://oc-media.org/azerbaijan-arrests … r-figures/

Armenia calls for a UN mission to be sent to Nagorno-Karabakh
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/armenia-calls … 29703.html
Azerbaijan regained control of its breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh in a deadly two-day military offensive

Nagorno-Karabakh conflict: Graphic execution videos emerge as Armenians flee and experts warn of genocide
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/nagorno- … de-2636369

Offline

#20 2023-10-01 18:18:23

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Meloni, Macron in Malta for MED9 summit dominated by migration!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-QHl18ohkk


‘Genocide is happening before our eyes’: Armenian Americans push for US action against Azerbaijan
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … gop-debate


Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: Nagorno-Karabakh separatist government to dissolve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4a5d7ZJPUk


Elon Musk on 'X' formerly known as twitter

'Went to the Eagle Pass border crossing to see what’s really going on'

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1707565081750290910

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-01 18:26:00)

Offline

#21 2023-10-20 12:43:33

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Different to a fictional plot from 'For All Mankind' the issue of remote work and borders on Earth.

FBI says North Korea deployed thousands of IT workers to get remote jobs in US with fake IDs
https://slatereport.com/tech/fbi-says-n … -fake-ids/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-20 12:43:56)

Offline

#22 2023-10-21 04:45:01

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

if Mars has colonies go into collapse by crime or war, clashing of cultures and religion conflict


and the Swedish numbers?

'64% of Palestinian refugees taken in by Denmark since 1992 have criminal records'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYQ9ggO6Lhk

Afghan refugees play the waiting game in Tajikistan
https://www.rfi.fr/en/international-new … tajikistan
A few months before the Taliban returned to power in Afghanistan in summer 2021, she and her family followed thousands of other Afghans across the mountainous border into neighbouring Tajikistan.

Derussification of Ukraine as cities remove symbols and culture from Soviet era
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/derussificati … 03360.html
Few cities in Ukraine are making as much effort as Kharkiv, a city with a Russian-speaking tradition, to erase its past. Hundreds of streets with Soviet names have been renamed

Ukraine adopts first step toward banning Russian-backed church
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/10/21/ … ed-church/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-21 06:47:32)

Offline

#23 2023-10-24 15:44:55

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

back ion planet Earth

Biden’s go-ahead for added border wall draws criticism from Democrats in Congress
https://www.gctelegram.com/bidens-go-ah … -congress/

Trump Says He'll Ban Immigrants Who 'Don't Like Our Religion'
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p … 234860524/
“I will implement strong ideological screening of all immigrants,” the former president vowed. “If you hate America, if you want to abolish Israel, if you don’t like our religion (which a lot of them don’t), if you sympathize with jihadists, then we don’t want you in our country and you are not getting in.”

UP: Adil, Najibul and Abu helped illegal Bangladeshi migrants to enter India, arrested
https://www.hindujagruti.org/news/192445.html
The accused helped facilitate the illegal immigration of several Rohingyas and Bangladeshi

Greece put on "Orange Alert" because of the war in Israel - Vigilance at the border and against Hamas
https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/10/13/g … rt-israel/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-24 15:45:14)

Offline

#24 2023-10-31 06:31:52

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

obvious major islamic jihadi problem, pawns they used which are now out of control or issues that people avoid discussing
"secreto a voces"
Un secret de Polichinelle
The 800-pound gorilla is now allowed to riot, nobody wants to mention that islamo jihadi ‘the elephant in the room’

The religion loony organization that it does not need to heed the rules of others including mini-Putin
ignore the islamo jihadist horde and focus on other details instead, the subject everybody avoids talking about

Moskva to -> Moscow -> to Mosque-Ouch!

Putin rages about Western 'scum' and accuses them of 'trying to instigate pogroms in Russia'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … rport.html


Britain split on taking Palestinian refugees from Gaza
https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/30/bri … -from-gaza


Dagestan Airport Incursion Reveals Fault Lines Of Aviation Security
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc … -security/

Mobs of islamics are still running around Southern Russia trying to “catch” Jews

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-31 06:54:35)

Offline

#25 2023-10-31 08:12:51

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Borders on Mars: A logical extension of Human practice on Earth

Slovakia sends troops to Hungarian border to curb migration

https://www.dw.com/en/slovakia-sends-tr … a-67260444

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB