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The NewMars forum, by it's nature, and due to the creativity of it's members, is constantly identifying aspects of the human adventure away from Earth that need to be recognized and developed.
The work of RobertDyck over two years has reached a state of maturity so that spin off projects are coming into existence. The dual-rotating design of kbd512 is an example of a worth while variation that is taking "flight" in parallel with the original Large Ship topic.
Meanwhile, development of the original Large Ship continues, and at intervals new insights into how the Large Ship will work appear.
The latest example of a worth while spinoff is the suggestion of GW Johnson that persons returning to Earth would benefit if they could experience a full 1 G on their way to Earth from Mars.
The large Ship as imagined by RobertDyck is already quite large. A ship able to provide a full 1 G would be much larger, and rotation would be even faster than the already edgy 3 RPM of Large ship.
The gold standard for a rotating vessel is 1 RPM. That standard was established decades ago during the Stanford Torus project.
Because it is going to be difficult enough to complete development, construction and deployment of Large Ship Prime, I am not encouraging additional variations.
However, the point raised by GW Johnson is valid (of course) and it must be addressed.
I'd like to suggest a Gravity Remediation Facility for persons returning from Mars (or elsewhere in the Solar System) on a vessel that does not provide a full 1 G experience for passengers.
A Gravity Remediation Facility would be a feature of a full fledged orbital hotel. It would allow visitors to start residence in a low level of gravity, and progress "up" to higher levels of gravity as their physical condition allows.
(th)
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The 1 RPM was with what radius in the design.
Is there a link to the paper that shows this work? Would try to secure time to read it.
Of course with the ISS experiments we do have knowledge to make use of on the medical front and do know that its only a partial protection for a long duration mission whether we have gravity or not.
Man still has yet to show at what partial gravity are the effects of duration stopped at.
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For SpaceNut re #2
Thank you ** very ** much for your interest in the Stanford Torus. By now, it is considered to be ancient history of the Space Age. At the time, it was truly State-of-the-Art collaboration by the leading talents of the day.
There are books on the subject, and some may still be in print. Certainly many will still be on library shelves.
I'll start this reply with a set of snippets from Google:
Stanford torus - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Stanford_torus
The Stanford torus is a proposed NASA design for a space habitat capable of housing 10,000 to 140,000 permanent residents. The Stanford torus was proposed ...
Construction · General characteristics · GalleryPeople also ask
What if we built a Stanford torus?
How does a Stanford torus work?
How big is a Stanford torus?
Are ring space stations possible?
Stanford torusThe Stanford torus is a proposed NASA design for a space habitat capable of housing 10,000 to 140,000 permanent residents. The Stanford torus was proposed during the 1975 NASA Summer Study, conducted at Stanford University, with the purpose of... Wikipedia
Stanford Torus Space Settlementspace.nss.org › stanford-torus-space-settlement
The Stanford Torus was the principal design considered by the 1975 NASA Summer Study, which was conducted in conjunction with Stanford University (and ...
What If We Built a Stanford Torus? - YouTube
www.youtube.com › watchAug 4, 2020 · Watch our discussed episode: What If We Lived in Space? - With Dr. Ronke Olabisi: https://www ...
Duration: 5:05
Posted: Aug 4, 2020Powering the Stanford Torus
large.stanford.edu › courses › martelaro2
May 18, 2017 · The Stanford Torus was a concept space colony designed in by a group of researchers, scientists, and educators during the summer of 1975.
Space Colony Form Factors, Part 3: The Stanford Torus and Beyond
www.core77.com › posts › Space-Colony-Form-Factors-Part-3-The-Stanfo...
Known as a Stanford Torus, it's named after the university where the study took place. The torus shape—I'm guessing "torus" is either Greek ...
Duration: 1:01Posted: Aug 7, 2015
What If We Built a Stanford Torus? | What If Show
whatifshow.com › what-if-we-built-a-standford-torus
There would be no skyscrapers, only labs, high-tech farms, and housing. Most of the people living on the Stanford Torus would be scientists or engineers, ...
Duration: 5:05Posted: Aug 4, 2020
Let's Take a Tour of NASA's 1970s Torus Space Settlement Concept
interestingengineering.com › lets-take-a-tour-of-nasas-1970s-torus-space-se...Dec 6, 2020 · The Torus Space Settlement, or Stanford Torus, was the principal design considered by the 1975 NASA Summer Study that was conducted in ...
Stanford Torus & Bernal Sphere: Model Space Colonies for Mankind ...
www.ststworld.com › space-coloniesDec 28, 2019 · Proposed by NASA, The Stanford Torus is a doughnut-shaped ring that is one mile in diameter and is designed to house over 10,000 people in space ...
Category:Stanford Torus - Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.org › wiki › Category:Stanford_TorusAug 25, 2020 · Media in category "Stanford Torus" ... The following 16 files are in this category, out of 16 total.
File:Internal view of the Stanford torus.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.org › wiki › File:Internal_view_of_the_Stanford_torus
This design became known as the 'Stanford Torus'. Oil on board for NASA Ames." The space colony painting was first drawn out in perspective trying several ...
Description: Internal view of the Stanford torus space station design. Artist's description: "The 1975 NASA Ames/Stanford University ...
Permission (Reusing this file): Released into the public domain
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If you've not had the opportunity to discover this pioneering work before, I expect you'll enjoy diving into the work.
Since there are new, younger NewMars readers coming along, your interest may provide an opportunity for them to discover this work as well.
(th)
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The purpose of this new topic is to provide a rallying point for those who may wish to contribute to the fulfillment of the idea suggested by GW Johnson, to provide a way for space travelers to restore the ability to walk safely on Earth, after they have been away from Earth in reduced gravity for an extended period.
Persons coming to Earth from Mars may NEVER have experienced an Earth standard gravity, except in a centrifuge for acclimatization.
This facility will, if it comes to pass, provide a way for space travelers to regain their "Earth Legs" by moving from a ring which matches their accustomed gravity to the full 1 G they need to master to be able to return to Earth on a shuttle flight.
Having spent many decades absorbing input from science fiction writers (in addition to the usual non-fiction writers) I am amazed to consider that NO ONE in all those years had the imagination to consider the need for Gravity Remediation.
It takes a person who is a member of the NewMars forum to realize the need, and for that we can thank GW Johnson.
I would like to see this topic develop along engineering lines for the most part, with a parallel track of business development logic, so that the idea moves along simultaneously with Large Ship, so that the facility is on orbit and ready for business when the first space farers return from the Moon or Mars or points further afield.
This wouldn't be a Quarantine Facility per se, although it might well feel like one, because the guests are constrained by the conditions of their own bodies to move gradually from low gravity to full 1 G as rapidly as they can.
The model for what to expect is the recovery of ISS astronauts after their extended stay in microgravity.
However, I expect to find that persons who live at Mars gravity will be able to recover (or gain) Earth gravity mastery in a relatively short time.
Persons can exercise with suitable equipment to experience the effects of greater gravity than is "normal" for them.
Never-the-less, a Gravity Remediation facility in LEO is going to be needed, so this topic is available to collect detailed recommendations to cause one to exist.
(th)
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The Effects of Long Duration Spaceflight on Sensorimotor Control and Cognition
The Effects of Long Duration Spaceflight on Sensorimotor Control and Cognition
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9852301/
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stat … _bone.html
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/55411main_28%20ISS.pdf
It may be not long to get strength back but the internal damage takes much longer.
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For SpaceNut re #5
This topic is set up to address whatever needs space travelers may have upon return from their voyages.
Conscientious travelers will work hard to keep their bodies in good condition. Many travelers will not. This facility will be built to serve the full range of needs.
The links you provided in Post #5 are (most likely) about persons who have spent time in microgravity.
This topic is intended to prepare a facility for person who are returning from Mars on a Large Ship.
A Large Ship (by Definition of RobertDyck) will provide Mars equivalent gravity and Mars equivalent Habitat atmosphere).
Thus, this topic should focus upon the needs of those specific travelers, while keeping the needs of Lunar residents and microgravity victims in mind.
There exist NO records of ANY kind about dealing with recovery from Mars equivalent gravity.
The purpose of THIS topic is to create a way for such records to be created.
Let's (NewMars members) get to work.
We have the building momentum of Large Ship to work with and to tag onto.
(th)
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Just an odd thought: build this spin gravity orbital facility with multiple decks, such that nearer the hub you are at lower gravity, and farther out you are at higher gravity. I'd suggest a frisbee shape. But even if these are separate pressurized rings, you will need ready pressurized access between them. In that way, people can move at their individual paces from one gravity level to the next. And can retreat back a level if they find out they rushed it too fast.
Regaining strength is most certainly not the only issue. There are many now-known deleterious changes in zero-gee, ranging from imbalanced fluid pressures causing possibly-permanent vision damage, to induced anemia, to heart damage or weakening, to weakened bones, all the way to changes in the DNA and in the immune system that we just don't yet understand at all. Whether partial gee causes any of those things, and to what extent, is as yet totally unknown to us. The hope is that partial gravity will head off the worst effects of zero gee, but we DO NOT KNOW THAT, not yet.
You build this thing in its initial form now, and use it to go find some of those answers. Then later, when the colonization transports begin to fly, you continue to use it as a therapy house for those returning to Earth.
But, having this transfer from a ship to this orbiting facility does imply that your ships will never, ever fail to enter Earth orbit safely. That is as-yet one really big "if". Be aware that THAT is the consequence of assuming this particular mission architecture.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2022-02-19 10:17:56)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For GW Johnson re #7
Thank you for your significant contribution to the development of this topic!
Please note that while microgravity victims may occur in future, Large Ship is intended (see RobertDycki et al) to deliver travelers from Mars (or from anywhere in the Solar system) with Mars equivalent gravity.
It is possible that there may be harmful effects of Mars gravity, but we (humans) have absolutely NO way of knowing, since we have collectively chosen to postpone learning.
If possible, let us design a facility that allows progression from Lunar gravity through Mars Gravity to some intermediate stage to full Earth gravity, as you have described.
If someone is able to create a drawing of what this would look like, please do so.
Even better, if someone is able to direct Blender or some similar graphics program to create an image, please do that.
We have a LOT of idle hands in range of the NewMars forum .... i'm attempting to encourage our readers who are sitting on those hands to put them to work.
While RobertDyck has created a powerful meme for us to develop, he is close to maxxed out. We need plenty of support for each of the many disciplines at play in this project.
Gravity Remediation is of such import that large numbers of people can (and hopefully will) devote their careers to making it happen.
(th)
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No one knows that a reduced gravity to that of mars will not do harm and we have no data to suggest that it will not.
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The article at the link below covers the mouse study reported earlier in the forum, and it also speculates on NASA thinking about artificial gravity for humans....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 79cc80870b
(th)
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Good Stuff, hard to read, I am a bit too simple minded. But it does look like they know what they are doing for sure.
I am going to appropriate this to my thinking on synthetic gravity machines in and around Phobos and Deimos.
Done.
Done.
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perhaps a little small when compared with O'Neill cylinder vision for a space station
a social media video 'RSS Habitat Flythrough'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIZdercMWmU
Exodus Star
Biotech Research on Station Promoting Astronaut Health
https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacestation/202 … ut-health/
Multi-use Variable-g Platform, a biology research device that can generate artificial gravity.
Granular flow experiment using artificial gravity generator at International Space Station
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41526-023-00308-w
Technologies for landing and roving on extra-terrestrial bodies are fundamental for pursuing scientific missions and human exploration in space, as reported in the roadmaps published by several space agencies. Solar rocky bodies, including the Moon and asteroids, are covered by fragmental debris called regolith. Regolith, which is a potentially fluffy and powdery granular material, is a primary concern for the lander or rover; landing on such loose soil is a critical phase during exploration as the footpad of the landing gear may bury into the regolith. Therefore, the mechanical interaction of the footpad plays a key role in the landing dynamics. The importance thereof is borne out by the fact that one mission involving Spirit, one of the twin Mars exploration rovers, had to be terminated because the wheel of the rover were trapped by loose regolith7. This issue has clarified the importance of the wheel–soil interaction mechanics
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The simplest form of a gravity research station would have been about 5 to 7 Bigelow B-330 modules docked end to end, then spun up like a baton to about 3 or 4 rpm. These would require mods to their cores for fold-out deck grates for crew to stand upon, no big deal to do. These could have been sent up atop a Falcon-9 as we know it today, certainly a Falcon-Heavy.
Launch costs for 7 Falcon-Heavy flights would be in the neighborhood of $700 M. If the acquisition/modification costs were about that same magnitude for 7 modified B-330's, you are looking at having a reduced gravity research station in orbit for about 1/3 the cost of a single SLS launch (now estimated at $4+ B each).
Too bad Bigelow is no longer in business. Too bad nobody is building semi-inflatable space modules anymore.
There's an awful lot of hidden costs ($100's of B) to a space program that Congress insists on being corporate welfare for "old space", and those costs are "hiding" in plain sight, right in front of you.
Bigelow might still be here if NASA had hired them to build a small spin-gravity space station. But no, now we have both SLS and Gateway. Except that SLS is too expensive to fly, and Gateway has yet to have a single piece launched, to be the jumping-off point for landings on the moon next year. Next year? Really? BS !!!!!
If you believe that crap that Congress has mandated, I have beachfront property in Atlantis to sell you. Beautiful ocean view, 1200 feet straight up.
Believe no words from a NASA run (micromanaged) by Congress. Especially a Congress that cannot function because one of its two political parties is totally dysfunctional. Observe instead what they actually do.
George Washington warned us not to go with political parties. But , noooo, we did anyway.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2023-10-22 09:46:23)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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Counteracting Bone And Muscle Loss In Microgravity
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The real microgravity problem goes far beyond simple bone and muscle mass loss! People who are desperate not to address artificial gravity still cling to ignoring everything but bone and muscle mass loss, which is really just a means of misinformation/disinformation. That is diagnostic of a mindset that prefers belief over fact, something we know is dangerous in any arena of human endeavor.
That bone and muscle mass loss was all they knew about from the first several space flights, such as Skylab. The real problems are far more complex and lead in many different directions to many other problems in the body, as we have learned in the years since. There are effects on the heart and other organs, the eyes, the immune system, the chromosomes (clouded by radiation effects, too), and who knows what else?
Most importantly, we have really learned that we have yet to uncover all the microgravity problems, much less how to deal with them (other than by artificial gravity). Simple as that. And just as complex to deal with as anything else imaginable.
And we STILL DO NOT KNOW how much artificial gravity is enough? Odds favor that being a fuzzy boundary, because the effects are so widespread and variously-directed. It will prove to be a tradeoff on how much damage you can tolerate. The radius-spinrate-gee level equation is just as tyrannical as the rocket equation, so determining tolerable spin rate sets the radius you must have, for any particular selected gee level. Simple as that, and just as hard to deal with as anything else about space vehicle design.
Too bad most folks only imagine the rifle-bullet spin scenario or cable-connected things. There is one other that works as a rigid body application: baton spin. Cable-connected is a technology not yet mature enough to apply with any confidence. It has only flown in space once, and failed in that test, due to real-world complications in addition to actual hardware difficulties.
You solve the microgravity health effects by providing artificial spin gravity, there being no other known physics and technology to apply. This has been known since the first wheel-type space station design proposal in 1937 (by Werner Von Braun and his team).
Similarly, to solve the radiation health effects problem, you supply some passive radiation shielding, mostly directed at erratically-occurring and lethally-intense solar flare events, that being the only technology currently mature enough to apply with confidence. If that shielding is made of low atomic weight atoms, it will also partly mitigate the slow thin drizzle of galactic cosmic radiation. We have understood these risks since about the time of the Apollo moon landings. Key to mass reduction is using what you already must take with you anyway as part of that shielding, doing double duty.
As for food, water, and oxygen, you grow and recycle what you can, and pack up enough tons for the trip of those things you cannot grow or recycle. Simple as that. And it even works if you cannot grow or recycle anything; you just have to transport more tons of packed supplies.
None of these things have really stood in the way, unless you let them stand in the way, since the 1970s for radiation, and before the 1950's for the rest.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2023-12-07 10:40:46)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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