Reproduction Away from Earth

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-30 10:49:32

For SpaceNut ... we did not have a topic devoted to this specific focus...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/time-reprodu … 21673.html

Miriam Kramer
Sat, January 29, 2022, 6:57 PM
Before humans can settle off-Earth, scientists need to figure out how — or even whether — people can reproduce in space.
Why it matters: Powerful figures in the space industry like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos have dreams of a future where millions of people live in space, which would naturally require a self-sustaining population of humans somewhere other than Earth.

This article includes recommendations for a variety of experiments that might be done.

Notably missing (from my point of view) is any hint of a thought that artificial gravity might help.

It is entirely within the capability of NewMars members and readers to influence decisions about allocation of resources to investigate this question.

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-01-30 11:51:49

tahanson43206,

Nike's famous advertisement slogan contains the answer to this question.

SpaceNut · 2022-01-30 15:13:12

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5585
Designer Humans

kbd512 · 2022-01-30 16:04:18

SpaceNut,

Genetically manipulated humans may share many of the physical characteristics of humans, or not, but now we're talking about turning ourselves into something that never existed in nature, so our children are no longer human. Historically, there are always unforeseen consequences associated with doing something like that. If you have to manipulate your own children into being something that they never were to begin with, then why go?

Humans adapt their environment to their needs by manipulating tools that make hostile environments survivable or even favorable for human use, not the other way around. That's why we continue to survive events and environmental changes that brought pretty much every other species to eventual extinction. If you must turn into a new kind of butterfly every time you travel to some new place, then your odds of surviving, much less thriving, in that new / hostile environment are rather low.

When we lived in deserts, we invented ways to store water, fans or air conditioning to cool ourselves off, and when we lived on the tundra we invented fur coats to survive in cold environments. When we finally went into space, we invented spacecraft and space suits. We did not genetically manipulate our bodies to survive in a hard vacuum and micro-gravity environment with +250F/-250F temperature extremes. Maybe we could do that in the future, but to what end? The moment we want to live some new place that doesn't match the previous environment, does that mean we have to continually mess with our genetic code until what's left no longer resembles anything human?

Viruses and bacteria may adapt that way, but the end result is that entire populations of those organisms are continually popping up for a short while and then going extinct. They may be masters of adaptation as a result, but they can also just as easily cease to exist when, not if, self-adaptation fails. Without tools and the abstract thinking skills exhibited by most humans, you're doomed to a very short existence.

RobertDyck · 2022-01-30 16:14:29

Way... Way Out (1966) Official Trailer #1 - Jerry Lewis HD
Comedy. A couple sent to the Moon to see if reproduction is possible. Click for YouTube trailer, starts at 1:14.

RobertDyck · 2022-01-30 16:23:05

But seriously, the thread about Designer Humans suggested bones that don't decalcify. That won't work. Bones originally evolved to store calcium. Common ancestor of all vertebrates was a worm. When our bodies need calcium, cells called osteoclasts dissolve calcium from our bones. When bones are stressed activating nerves, that triggers a cascade that results in cells called osteoblasts building more bone, making bones thicker. For a healthy person, this results in a balance which optimizes bones for the stress you actually endure. For senior citizens, their metabolism responds so slowly that the balance doesn't work properly. In zero-G, there aren't enough stresses on your bones to trigger bone building. Astronauts on ISS consume calcium and vitamin D to reduce the need for their body to release calcium. Human digestive system cannot absorb calcium unless you take vitamin D with it. They also take some medications that reduce the rate of bone decalcification.

Terraformer · 2022-01-31 04:29:02

Genetically manipulated humans may share many of the physical characteristics of humans, or not, but now we're talking about turning ourselves into something that never existed in nature, so our children are no longer human.

Wow. Bit racist innit, saying that slight genetic differences make people 'no longer human'? Does having skin with far less melanin than my ancestors have, to improve my ability to survive in northern latitudes, make me non-human? Does my sustained ability to digest lactose? Minor tweaks do not create a new species.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-31 07:12:22

I created this topic to follow up on serious concerns of serious people.

May I (try to) set a ground rule or two for this discussion?

We (humans) have an opportunity to thoughtfully experiment with a progressively more advanced form of life (plant and animal) to discover any impediments that may exist that would interfere with procreation away from Earth.

There have been (I understand) a number of experiments already carried out on the ISS by NASA astronauts and scientists, working with experiments designed on Earth and flown to space.

All these experiments (to the best of my knowledge) have been carried out in microgravity.

This topic is set up to report on experiments with reproduction that lead toward success on Mars.

The development of artificial gravity, and especially one that matches Mars gravity, is a reasonable step along the way.

Genetic modification of any living creatures is NOT intended to be a part of this topic, for now.

It is reasonable (from my perspective) to find out if a variety of living creatures can reproduce in the special circumstance of Mars equivalent gravity in a rotating vessel in LEO.

The Moon is close enough so that experiments can be done there, and indeed, it is my understanding the Chinese are carrying out such experiments right now.

Edit after posting the Recruiting message for the day ...

For Terraformer ...

You are the ONLY member of the forum with a successful track record for recruiting.

Please consider recruiting persons you consider suitable to engage this topic.

The NewMars Portal is available to expedite admission of persons you recommend.

(th)

Terraformer · 2022-01-31 08:05:45

How successful is the vitamin D + calcium regimen at reducing bone loss?

I'd certainly prefer dietary changes and medications to modifying the human genome. Far lower risk of making unwanted changes, Wouldn't mind editing plants though to improve their provision of calcium and vitamin D.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-31 09:55:30

For Terraformer re #9

Please research the question posed in #9, and report the results with links to papers and web sites with related content.

There is a lot of shoot-from-the-hip activity recorded in the archives of this forum. I see it's been going on for over 20 years.

This topic has already exceeded the ration for less-than-thoughtful posts. Your post #9 has potential to develop into a valuable collection of knowledge.

If you have friends who are scientists whose expertise would fit into this investigation, please let them know that we offer an opportunity for them to contribute to the Mars Settlement discussion.

We need live creature experiments ready to fly in the next launch cycle. Time is short. The next launch cycle is coming up this fall (fall of 2022).

We already have a robust lander proposal in the works (somewhere) and a life sciences experiment could most certainly fly at the same time, if the experiment can be packaged in time.

I'd like to see a full life cycle experiment. There are already small scale habitats on Earth, with plants and simple animals co-existing in water with a supply of sunlight. The experiment needs to include reporting capability, of course.

Mice are candidate organisms, but they are (probably) too ambitious for a first experiment. Worms might be just about right.

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-01-31 11:54:13

Terraformer wrote:

Genetically manipulated humans may share many of the physical characteristics of humans, or not, but now we're talking about turning ourselves into something that never existed in nature, so our children are no longer human.
Wow. Bit racist innit, saying that slight genetic differences make people 'no longer human'? Does having skin with far less melanin than my ancestors have, to improve my ability to survive in northern latitudes, make me non-human? Does my sustained ability to digest lactose? Minor tweaks do not create a new species.

Terraformer,

Actual humans can't breathe pure CO2 and don't glow in the dark = "racism" is a total non-sequitur for me.

Please explain the mental gymnastics your brain had to go through in order to contort, "We shouldn't manipulate our human DNA to create human facsimiles that breathe pure CO2 or glow in the dark", to "You think I don't have the correct skin color".

What class did I miss in college that reduces all differences of academic opinion down to, "if you think something different than I do, then you're a racist"?

My argument was related to the relative merit of manipulating our tools (pressurized living spaces, atmospheric and waste water recycling, radiation shielding, etc) to live in a given environment, versus radically altering the essence of what makes us human.

Were you not paying attention these past two years while humanity was grasping at straws trying to combat that "designer virus" that was genetically manipulated to be more transmissible and virulent to humans?

I'm reasonably sure that none of the research scientists working at Wuhan Institute of Virology ever thought that their work would cause a global pandemic that would go on to kill millions of people, but that's exactly what happened. That was pretty much my point. You don't have to be malicious, you can have the "best of intentions", you can even "think" you're being diligent about avoiding negative consequences, but there is no "escaping the consequences" if ever you're wrong or make a mistake.

That's exactly why dinking with our DNA shouldn't be done so flippantly. We don't have a computer with enough processing power to predict every conceivable way that our little experiment might blow up in our faces. Even if we did, someone would invariably ignore the results in favor of their personal ideology.

Terraformer · 2022-01-31 12:13:26

We aren't talking about "breathing CO2", but minor tweaks that are far smaller in magnitude than the diversity already present. And yet you would deny the humanity of such modified individuals, which logically means you don't think anyone more different than that is human either. So which race do you accept as the baseline "true humanity"?

kbd512 · 2022-01-31 12:55:02

Terraformer,

I responded to a post that SpaceNut linked to where that's exactly what was being discussed. I actually read every word of it, but I'm guessing that you didn't based upon your response, so I'll reproduce part of it here:

To survive lower gravity:
+ A circulation system that doesnt expect gravity.
+ bones that dont decalcify
+ thinner bones
To survive lower atmospheric pressures
+ bigger lungs
+ straight through breathing like birds ..haha
+ a valve in your throat which closes automatically in case
of accidental decompression.
To survive radiation.
+ Some insect genes for selective chitin covered limbs, or at least torso to protect the organs.
+ Cholorphyll in your skin so if your rover runs out of food, you can just lie in the sun to await rescue

I don't think someone who has been genetically manipulated to have chlorophyll under their skin, and chitin to replace their skin, could ever validly be called "human". How you should treat someone who is still sentient but no longer human is a different question entirely. I would tend to err on the side of affording basic respect and dignity to all sentient life, but I would not substitute my personal ideology for what I know to be true of human physiology. Humans aren't plants, birds, insects, but if they've been genetically modified to take on the physiological characteristics of those other forms of life, then they're no longer human. I also give that much respect to my dog, but I don't pretend that my dog is human, merely because he can understand what I'm asking of him when I say "sit" or "come here".

Claiming you "identify as a toaster oven" doesn't imbue you with the physical attributes of a toaster oven. That said, if you do have the physical attributes of a toaster oven, then you're no longer human. I don't concern myself with how I address toaster ovens, what level of respect or lack thereof is shown to kitchen appliances, or other utterly pointless topics. Stating that a toaster oven is not a human and a human is not a toaster oven, no matter what the human "chooses to identify as", should not be the least bit controversial. It's certainly not something that should invoke false claims of "toaster oven racism" or "denying the humanity of toaster ovens" or any similar nonsense.

RobertDyck · 2022-01-31 14:28:39

There was one Space Shuttle mission before ISS where a married couple flew together. However, don't think there was any hanky-panky. They couldn't get any private space. A total of 7 astronauts flew, so 5 strangers with them. And the crew cabin is actually quite small. Everyone would have been able to not only hear, but see them as they go at it.

ISS is larger, there are some private spaces. But sleeping quarters are pretty camped.
edu_adil_sleeping.jpg?itok=mIfP6W2t

However, if you send me to space with a harem of 20-something supermodels, I would definitely be willing to try the experiment.
Ps. See trailer in post #5.

SpaceNut · 2022-01-31 21:37:10

We do have a bit of genetic data from the twin experiment but its only half of the pool that is needed to aid in determining yay or ney to making babies in space or anywhere else. So is 7% enough to say we are genetically engineered?

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-01 11:48:38

For Void and everyone who's contributed to this topic so far.

What I was hoping would happen with this topic is that contributors would collect and display links to knowledge already obtained, and then suggest courses of scientific investigation that would retire risks.

The very first responses sent this topic veering off into genetic modification which is MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT what this topic is about.

The topic is about successful reproduction of living creatures from Earth as they are at locations away from
Earth.

It would appear necessary for us to recruit persons with the needed knowledge, experience and skills to add substance to this topic.

Our attempts to recruit new members have brought five highly vetted members into the community, but the time when they will contribute is not yet.

If anyone currently a member knows someone with the needed (see list above) please invite them to help out.

We have a flight opportunity coming up this September. Several expeditions to Mars are likely, and there could be life sciences experiments on board.

(th)

Void · 2022-02-01 12:00:28

There (th), hope you can get yourself many new highly qualified members worthy to participate with you.

I deleted post #18, which was not pleasing to the high master.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-01 12:01:02)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-01 12:51:41

For Void re #17

Thank you for supporting the goals for this topic! Should you happen to know someone who you think might be interested in helping to develop this topic, please invite them to do so.

Best wishes for success with the many topics you have created, and in particular for the inspiring ideas you having planted as seeds in the minds of your many readers.

Ballistic Delivery of Supplies to Mars comes first to (my) mind, but there are many others.

Habitats in pressure domes under water is another that seems highly likely to become reality.

For all ... if you have a favorite idea of Void to highlight, please do so in the topic for Void Postings.

(th)

Terraformer · 2022-02-01 15:40:31

The trouble is, we don't really have any data to go on, because despite how easily it would be to centrifuge some eggs on the station to see how they develop under different gravities no-one has (AFAIK) actually done this. We have done chicken development in freefall, but that doesn't really tell us anything useful about lower-gravity environments.

Fish, at least, don't have any problems.

RobertDyck · 2022-02-01 16:02:47

There was a mouse experiment. It was supposed to launch a satellite into LEO. The mice were supposed to breed to see the effects, and use rotation for reduced gravity. It was serious, but never launched. After further attempts it was changed to an experiment on ISS.

ISS mouse experiment tests how the body adapts to living on the Moon

Mice reared in artificial lunar gravity have returned to Earth, and scientists will now see how they fare.
July 16, 2019
Astronauts living on the International Space Station (ISS) spend hours working out every day just to avoid losing serious muscle mass and bone density in microgravity. But will such precautions be needed to live on worlds that are simply lower in gravity than Earth, like the Moon and Mars? And what effect would such gravity have on growing children? These questions are almost entirely unanswered by science, but they’re vital for humanity’s aims to build permanent settlements off-world.
Now Japan has taken a first step toward answering some of these questions thanks to a new instrument in their KIBO module on the ISS. Called MARS – Multiple Artificial-gravity Research System – it can spin to produce gravity at a variety of levels. Scientists have used it to raise mice in microgravity, artificial Earth gravity, and artificial lunar gravity. Then, they compared the mice to those raised in a similar habitat on the ground in true Earth gravity.
...

Healthy mouse pups born from freeze-dried space sperm

After spending nearly six years on the International Space Station, the mouse sperm was returned to Earth and unfrozen, suffering little damage from radiation.
June 11, 2021

SpaceNut · 2022-02-01 19:39:26

The ISS has be home to many experiment at the cellular levels
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stat … akthroughs

Its the baseline of what we are using to determine not only would it be safe but what could we expect for deformities to us after being away from our earth for a period of time over a year to any off-springs that might be created.

https://science.nasa.gov/biological-phy … r/hardware

Natural plant use is what we want and to know even how that changes is important to all types of cells.
http://spaceref.com/international-space … etics.html

Not all dragon cargo capsules are used for a rubbish run to the depths of the oceans some actua carried out onboard the iss.
http://spaceref.com/international-space … ragon.html

Following up to RobertDyck's post

12 Cool Experiments Done on the International Space Station

We hopefully will get another decade and more out of the US components after the station for the US side is turned over to and for commercial use.

Terraformer · 2022-02-02 04:29:17

Oh, they finally managed to do that experiment? That's good. Maybe I should email JAXA about using eggs, with it being their module and all.

It's been two and a half years since they did it though. There should be results by now...

Terraformer · 2022-02-02 04:33:48

Well, it doesn't seem to affect the ability to reproduce and have healthy offspring, at any rate, at least for males. Lunar gravity won't ruin sperm.

Other than that, though, they are being annoyingly slow in sharing their results.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-02 07:40:57

For Terraformer re #22 ... Please ** do ** follow up on your idea of offering a suggestion for further research....

While you're at it, this might be a good time to mention the value of artificial gravity, and specifically it's value for space transportation.

The Japanese have been thinking about doing work in this area. I ** think ** RobertDyck has reported on a module they created but which was never launched.

They have MUCH greater capability right now and might be willing to take up this expense without depending upon NASA.

Here are some snippets I found on Google:

Centrifuge Accommodations Module - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Centrifuge_Accommodations_Module
The Centrifuge Accommodations Module (CAM) is a cancelled element of the International Space ... Provide Earth simulation environment on ISS to isolate microgravity ...
World's first long-term habitation of mice on the International Space ...
iss.jaxa.jp › kiboexp › news › 190701_mhu-4
Jul 1, 2019 · JAXA has developed a research platform, MARS (Multiple Artificial-gravity Research System), capable of simulating gravitational environments ...
Missing: design simulator
A Japan-US joint study has revealed that artificial gravity load is ...
www.reddit.com › space › comments › a_japanus_joint_study_has_reveale...
Nov 2, 2018 · A Japan-US joint study has revealed that artificial gravity load is effective to reduce impairment in eyeball tissues during long stays in ...
International roadmap for artificial gravity research | npj Microgravity
www.nature.com › npj microgravity › review articles
Nov 24, 2017 · In this paper, we summarize the current and future research activities that will determine the requirements for implementing artificial ...
[PDF] An Artificial Gravity Space Station at the Earth-Moon L1 Point
www.lpi.usra.edu › publications › reports
Completion of the full-length Mars simulation in 2012 will allow time to integrate the lessons learned from the simulation into a Mars mission design for the ...
Why Don't We Have Artificial Gravity In Space? - Forbes
www.forbes.com › sites › startswithabang › 2017/10/19 › why-dont-we-ha...
Oct 19, 2017 · On Star Trek and most space-based TV shows and movies, there's gravity on their spaceships. But what does the physics say?
Scientists are working on artificial gravity that won't make you barf
www.cnet.com › news › scientists-working-on-artificial-gravity-that-wont-...
A volunteer sits in an artificial gravity simulator. ... as opposed to the giant space station-sized spinning circles conceived of in ...
Duration: 1:24
Posted: Jul 3, 2019
[PDF] An Artificial-Gravity Space-Settlement Ground-Analogue Design ...
ti.arc.nasa.gov › publications › download
3 The design he envisioned in that article was a. 250' diameter wheel, constructed in Low-Earth orbit (LEO) out of modules, and is shown in Fig.1. This space ...
Space Station Systems: Supplement
books.google.com › books
... Space Station Freedom power management and distribution system design ( NASA ... station with artificial gravity p 41 A89-37507 Space Station Japanese ...

You might even get a reply.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-02 20:57:49

More info on the CAM

RobertDyck wrote:

Old SpaceRef.com article: ISS Elements: Centrifuge Accommodation Module (CAM)
The CAM is designed to house the Centrifuge Facility and is 8.9 meters (29 feet) long, 4.4 meters (14.4 feet) in diameter, and will weigh 10 tons at launch. The CAM has 14 rack locations, 4 of which house experimental hardware with the remaining 10 dedicated to stowage. The centrifuge rotor is located in the module's endcone. The CAM will be launched aboard a Space Shuttle on mission ISS-UF7 (Utilization Flight-7) in 2006.
Converting 10 US tons to metric: 9.071847 tonnes
Wikipedia: Cygnus (spacecraft)
Launch mass 6,600 kg
Dry mass 3,400 kg
Payload capacity 3,000 kg
The service module is built by Orbital ATK and is based on their GEOStar and LEOStar spacecraft buses as well as components from the development of the Dawn spacecraft. It has a gross mass of 1,800 kg with propulsion provided by thrusters using the hypergolic propellants hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide and is capable of producing up to 4 kW of electrical power via two gallium arsenide solar arrays.
I assume that means 3,200 kg of propellant.
So 9.07 tonnes CAM + 1.8 tonnes dry mass service module + 3.2 tonnes propellant = 14.07 tonnes total launch mass.
Click image for Wikipedia page:

Centrifuge module a life science unit sitting unfinished at the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency in Tsukuba.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20 … Y03001.htm
Lab module unfinished due to NASA

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2022-01-30 10:49:32

Reproduction Away from Earth

#2 2022-01-30 11:51:49

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#3 2022-01-30 15:13:12

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#4 2022-01-30 16:04:18

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#5 2022-01-30 16:14:29

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#6 2022-01-30 16:23:05

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#7 2022-01-31 04:29:02

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#8 2022-01-31 07:12:22

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#9 2022-01-31 08:05:45

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#10 2022-01-31 09:55:30

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#11 2022-01-31 11:54:13

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#12 2022-01-31 12:13:26

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#13 2022-01-31 12:55:02

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#14 2022-01-31 14:28:39

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#15 2022-01-31 21:37:10

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#16 2022-02-01 11:48:38

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#17 2022-02-01 12:00:28

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#18 2022-02-01 12:51:41

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#19 2022-02-01 15:40:31

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#20 2022-02-01 16:02:47

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#21 2022-02-01 19:39:26

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#22 2022-02-02 04:29:17

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#23 2022-02-02 04:33:48

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#24 2022-02-02 07:40:57

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

#25 2022-02-02 20:57:49

Re: Reproduction Away from Earth

Board footer