Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 11:28:53

For SpaceNut re #150

Thanks for adding the post by Mars_B4_Moon to this topic!

Reduction of the cost of desalination is a possibility, although the researchers (at this time) are able to support only small amounts of potable water. The indications are that treating dangerous water (ie, filled with pathogens) is a possibility, but that time is not yet.

At the moment, it appears this technology might be able to deliver enough potable water for a family on a picnic by a clean ocean.

At this point in development of the technology, I think it would still be wise to boil the output, since live pathogens may still be present.

The long term outlook is definitely encouraging. The researchers are interested in seeing if this technology can pull clean water molecules from source liquid infused with heavy metals and other poisons.

** That ** would be quite a piece of work, if they can pull it off.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-30 13:26:09

No (tc), quote:

For Void ... this is not intended to cause disagreement or difficulty ...
It is offered purely as a fact ... Salton Sea is reported to be 227 feet below sea level.
The water admitted will bring salt and other minerals, and (if unfiltered) it will bring some sea life.
However, water leaving the Salton Sea due to evaporation will leave minerals behind, so the See will become steadily more briny.
There would be no shipping channels.
There would be a 227 head of pressure at the inlet port, so I suppose that could be harnessed as a source of energy.
(th)

The brine leaving would take concentrated salts with it. In fact this could be the output of desalinated lake water, the briny one. The other output could be fresh water perhaps by a method involving what Spacenut just posted.

So, sea water comes into the Salton Sea, and Yes, could support a shipping canal and locks. It could support power generation.

Then the water and salt do the following. Some evaporates to the sky from the lake surface. Some, becomes fresh water by desalinization.
Some becomes intensified brine that you pump back out. So, same amount of salt in as out, except if it precipitates into rock or something like that . Different amounts of water in and water out. More water in (down), less water out (Up). So, actually, potentially a net energy gain. But I did not think of this so much as to generate net energy but to store intermittent energy.

So, at night when it may be greatly desired, electricity, and the lake level rises like a tide. The flow of sea water in powers ship locks and allows shipping in and out. During the day, you distill water with solar energy, and also pump brine out. You also pump fresh water to a user, so then the lake level falls, like a tide.

The salt level of the lake water may be important. Obviously where sea water is entering you might support sea life, especially as you are imposing an artificial tide. This sea water will tend to float on top of heavier brine as you get away from the "Inlet". Some places in the lake may become more briny as you got away from the inlet, per evaporation.

But the desalination process would product the heaviest brine which you would pump out during the night.

It is my recollection that most fish cannot reproduce well at salt levels >2 x that of the sea, so you might actually control what was in the lake to some degree using that factor.

Bring shrimp can live where fish cannot but grow better without the salt, but of course any fish and they die out.

Some though would have to be given to what do the people in Mexico get out of this? Energy? Water? I would expect them to want something.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 13:40:25)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 13:50:03

For Void,

Your thinking about the Salton Sea is certainly interesting!

There are elements that might even be taken as provocative!

A body of water that is 227 feet below sea level would require multiple locks to allow access.

Those locks would have to reside in Mexico, which is a sovereign nation.

If you are at all curious to know what negotiations may have already occurred with regard to water flows to and from Mexico, this topic contains links to reports on multiple negotiating sessions,

The Panama Canal provides a Real Universe example of a system of locks to move vessels across the isthmus of Panama.

Per Google, the three locks at the Panama Canal (the old system) lift vessels a total of 85 feet (26 meters).

There are three locks at each end of the system, so each lock lifts (on the order) 30 feet. There are a total of 6 of the old locks, and (I believe) 4 in the new.

If that system is a guide, your proposal would require a system of 227/30 or 7 separate locks.

The cost of these would (of course) be borne by the traffic ....

It would certainly be simpler to just allow the Salton Sea to fill up, and for the Andreas Fault to do it's thing.

***
Your post offers the suggestion of drawing brine away from the Salton Sea.

I cannot tell from your text where you would put it.

The folks in Mexico are not going to want it in the Sea of Cortez, and you would require their participation to ship it there.

You could deliver it to flat ground in the vicinity of the Salton Sea, if the owners of the property are agreeable.

Evaporation would quickly liberate any water molecules that might be present.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-30 13:56:21

OK, we can torture each other

Quote:

For Void,
Your thinking about the Salton Sea is certainly interesting!
There are elements that might even be taken as provocative!
A body of water that is 227 feet below sea level would require multiple locks to allow access.
Those locks would have to reside in Mexico, which is a sovereign nation.
If you are at all curious to know what negotiations may have already occurred with regard to water flows to and from Mexico, this topic contains links to reports on multiple negotiating sessions,
The Panama Canal provides a Real Universe example of a system of locks to move vessels across the isthmus of Panama.
Per Google, the first lock at the Panama Canal (the old system) lifts vessels a total of 85 feet (26 meters).
There are three locks at each end of the system, so each lock lifts (on the order) 30 feet.
If that system is a guide, your proposal would require a system of 227/30 or 7 separate locks.
The cost of these would (of course) be borne by the traffic ....
It would certainly be simpler to just allow the Salton Sea to fill up, and for the Andreas Fault to do it's thing.
***
Your post offers the suggestion of drawing brine away from the Salton Sea.
I cannot tell from your text where you would put it.
The folks in Mexico are not going to want it in the Sea of Cortez, and you would require their participation to ship it there.
You could deliver it to flat ground in the vicinity of the Salton Sea, if the owners of the property are agreeable.
Evaporation would quickly liberate any water molecules that might be present.
(th)

Why have locks on the Great Lakes? Why have a power storage system, that works on a daily basis?

Any scheme that desalinates water will produce a brine that has to be dumped into the ocean, and will flow like a river at the bottom. Sea of Cortez, or another spot. Would the Mexicans like to allow it? Not my problem. They either do or don't.

Would they like to have a port that has a canal that goes into the Salton Sea? Again, there thing to ponder.

Would they like the electrical power, that is going to come out of the storage scheme? I would think so.
Would they like to get payments also of fresh water distilled? I am guessing.

But we would be dealing not just with Mexico, but California, and of the two I fear the Californians more to mess it up, although Southern California is another sort of creature.

But "Is Not My Problem". I said how it might be done, not how you deal with the people.

As for letting the Salton sea fill with sea water, then you let it fill with brine. You flood farm land with brine, you do not store electrical power, and eventually it seems likely that the salt level gets so high that even brine shrimp cannot live in it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 14:02:29)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 14:00:20

For Void,

A system of 7 locks would be required.

They would be paid for by customer traffic, assuming Mexico would agree to allow them to be build on their land.

The Great Lakes have vast shoreline, with massive infrastructure in place to support massive flows of raw material.

The Salton Sea is a small pond, accidently created by human beings when they tried to move the Colorado River.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-30 14:06:09

Alright, the sea canal is a bonus. Thow it out if it bothers you.

I think that it may be possible with further advancing skills to bring the water further in. Orbital solar power? (Some Neet tricks I will not give you). Ha Ha.

But "Is not my Problem!"

Oh I guess I'm bad: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/its-not-my-problem

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Is … HoverTitle

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

They can or they can choose not to. We like freedom in this country, except the alien parasites that we are currently having problems with.
Now that is a problem

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 14:08:54)

Void · 2022-04-30 14:53:34

Some information, sort of appropriate:
https://rumble.com/v1242qm-when-califor … gle%20year.

Done

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 17:26:51

For Void re #157

Thanks for that interesting (and helpful) history of Salton Sea!

I was happy to see that it opens with coverage of the 1912 engineering accident / mistake that created the Sea in the first place.

One (possible) benefit of this side excursion into thinking about the Salton Sea is that it ** is ** a potential site of a massive desalination plant, ** if ** those whose land must be opened to permit access to the ocean can be persuaded to grant permission, and ** if ** the population of California can be persuaded to take the risk of disturbing the San Andreas fault.

A feed from either the Sea of Cortez (much shorter pipe) or from the Pacific Ocean (much longer pipe) would deliver a steady and controllable flow of sea water that could be processed to make fresh water for shipment elsewhere, while at the same time harvesting all the suspended matter that arrives with the flow.

In any case, since this topic is specifically about the City of Phoenix, and with your patient understanding, I'd like to try to move discussion back to the specific case of Phoenix and the proposed feed from the Sea of Cortez.

In "conversation" with you, as often happens, your gift of inspired creativity has led me to consider possibilities I would not otherwise have considered.

While the idea of building a living space up the side of Olympus Mons is an unexpected bonus, the ** real ** payoff (for me for sure) of our interaction is a vision of solar powered Unmanned Aerial Vehicles able to carry a kilogram of water over hundreds of miles/kilometers, without requiring anything but sunlight to provide power for flight.

I am starting to see (in my mind's eye) a massive, multi-trillion dollar industry, born in the USA and extending around the world.

The simple idea of asking how Ma Nature delivers water, modified after fruitful interaction with Void, led to a vision of UAV's delivering water from point A to Point B without human intervention (but under human supervision and direction).

The 1 kilogram payload target seems quite achievable to me, based upon known capabilities of existing UAV designs.

The US Government is a potential buyer of millions of these for fire prevention, and other governments are potential buyers for the same reason.

It is quite fitting that such a powerful idea should originate in a subsidiary of the Mars Society.

Thanks to all who assisted, and primarily to Void.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-04-30 17:30:30

Interesting to use tide power but that means we need to know the altitude of phoenix or other locations in Arizona.

Phoenix lies at an elevation of 1,117 feet above sea level, with its highest point being the camel back mountain at 2704 feet above sea level, while the lowest point is gila valley at about 900 feet above sea level. The elevation of phoenix, az is 1,086 feet (331 m).

So we have an underground sea at that point to pump vertically to the processing plant.

So this would be a boring job for Musk's equipment to make. So once we get a tunnel its got to be lined so as to protect it.

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 19:17:11

For SpaceNut re #159 .... that idea came from Void .... he is a constant source of creative thinking. We are really fortunate that he stays active in the forum!

Since this is the Phoenix topic, I'll just add FYI that the on site contact is continuing to think about the problem, and every so often he informs me of another outreach he has attempted, or of a source of information that pertains to the challenge of providing fresh water to a city in a desert.

The latest update included news about NuScale, which has let a contract for a critical reactor subassembly with a company in Germany. That company is (apparently) gearing up to make many of these components, if the small reactor business takes off. The needs for reliable power were already great before Putin's gambit put hydrocarbon fuel at risk, so the incentive for reliable small reactors should increase.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 21:08:07

Here is an update from Idaho's perspective ...

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/id … 04364.html

Nicole Blanchard
Fri, April 29, 2022, 5:31 PM
The Idaho Department of Water Resources on Friday issued an emergency drought declaration for all but 10 of the state’s 44 counties.
Gary Spackman, the department’s director, issued the declaration for all 34 counties south of the Salmon River, according to a news release. Gov. Brad Little approved it, meaning it will go into effect immediately for Ada and Canyon counties, and the 32 others.
Drought declarations allow for temporary changes in water rights. Water users can apply for changes to where water can be diverted, where it can be used and the purpose of use. Officials said such declarations can also pave the way for federal aid in drought-stricken areas.
According to the U.S. Drought Monitor, all of Idaho south of the Salmon River is in moderate to severe drought, with some small areas experiencing extreme drought. In the Panhandle, much of the state is considered abnormally dry with the exception of a small swath along the Idaho-Montana state line.
Department of Water Resources officials said snowpack in the affected counties was between 50% and 78% of normal at the start of April, and reservoirs in the southern part of the state were between 20% and 65% of capacity. The news release Friday said it’s likely many reservoirs in the southern half of Idaho will not fill.
It’s the second year of widespread drought in Idaho, exacerbated by an exceptionally hot summer in 2021 and consecutive springs with below-average precipitation. Some irrigation districts began warning earlier this month that water users must reduce water usage in order to avoid early irrigation shutoffs.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 21:09:50

This post by SpaceNut seems a good fit for this topic as well...

SpaceNut wrote:

If the pipeline runs along a power corridor then we have less problems with the variety of piping to underground tunnels to carry it form the source to its destination and the power lines can provide the pumping power as required.
The movement of vapor is less efficient to that of moving water for sure.
Finding the lowest cost transport system for moving that water over distance is priority one to that of desalination plant location.
latest drought map

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-01 10:22:20

Here is an update reporting on planned water restrictions in Los Angeles...

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/su … 35255.html

Hayley Smith, Ian James
Sat, April 30, 2022, 8:00 AM
LOS ANGELES, CA-APRIL 28, 2022: A gardener uses a leaf blower while cleaning a driveway as sprinklers water the front lawn of a home on Sunset Blvd. near Carmelina Ave. in Los Angeles. (Mel Melcon / Los Angeles Times)
Sprinklers water the front lawn of a home on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles. (Mel Melcon / Los Angeles Times)
When the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California this week unveiled its strictest-ever water restrictions for about 6 million residents, it did so with an urgent goal in mind: a 35% reduction in water consumption, equating to an allocation of about 80 gallons per person per day.
Officials said that's the number needed to conserve critical supplies for health and safety amid worsening drought — and to prevent a full outdoor watering ban as soon as September. Currently, the average potable water use across the MWD's service area — including residential, commercial and industrial water use — amounts to 125 gallons per person per day.
"The ballpark figure we're looking at is getting to the consumption of about 80 gallons per person per day," said Adel Hagekhalil, the district's general manager. "We're trying to preserve everything we can."
The number is not arbitrary: Southern California communities that are dependent on water delivered from Northern California by the State Water Project normally demand about 380,000 acre-feet of water between June and December. (An acre-foot is about enough water to cover a football field to a depth of one foot.)
But the projected supply during the second half of this year is far less — only 250,000 acre-feet. Facing the real risk of those supplies running dry, the MWD's managers say immediate cuts will help reserves last.
"We need to stretch the water because we can't get any more water at this point" for these parts of Southern California, Hagekhalil said. “We're saying the water we have available to us is the water that's going to last us until the end of the year. And we want everyone to help.”
Reducing outdoor watering to one day a week is an effective way to reach the target, officials said. But what does 80 gallons per person look like, and what would it mean for the daily life of average Californians?
For starters, more brown lawns are a given. Under the new rules, MWD will require suppliers to limit watering times on the one day when watering is allowed for each customer. The details will be left to each supplier, but some water agencies have already said sprinklers should run no more than 8 minutes.
That alone should achieve significant savings, since outdoor watering accounts for as much as 70% of residential use in the region, according to the MWD.
Inside the house, experts say, 80 gallons should be more than sufficient.
"Taking landscapes out of it, we could cut indoor water use to 35 gallons per person per day without changing behavior, just with efficient appliances," said Peter Gleick, co-founder and president emeritus of the Pacific Institute, a water think tank in Oakland.
Gleick said toilets are among the biggest water-users inside the home, and older toilets can use as much as 6 gallons a flush. But newer, more high efficient models have reduced that number to less than 1.3 gallons.
"Without a doubt, every one of us in our homes could cut our per-person water use quite substantially," he said. In fact, a report published earlier this month found that a host of existing technologies and standard practices could improve water efficiency in California by as much as 48%.
Those efficiency measures include fixing leaks in water pipes, replacing inefficient washing machines and toilets and replacing lawns with plants suited to California’s dry climate.
"There are two components to this," Gleick said. "One is, what do we do in the short run by changing our behavior? The second is, what do we do in the long run by changing our appliances, and in particular our outdoor landscaping?"
Part of the challenge facing water managers is that many people don't have a clear sense of how much they use in a day. A 2014 study on the perceptions of water use found that people underestimated use by a factor of 2 on average, with large underestimates for high water-use activities.
The study's author, Shahzeen Attari, said that's why focusing the restrictions on a specific activity — outdoor watering — instead of a per-capita number makes sense from a policy perspective, at least for the time being.
"If I say you're only allowed to use water on a particular day, on a Tuesday for example, then anyone who's watering on Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it's easy to say you're not in compliance," said Attari, an associate professor at Indiana University in Bloomington. "But if I say you're allowed to use 10 gallons any time during the week ... it's really hard for me to know whether you've reached your quota or not."
Many study participants also believed curtailment actions such as turning off the faucet while brushing their teeth were highly effective, when in fact "there are lots of other behaviors that are way more effective to decrease water use," Attari said, including reducing outdoor watering, replacing grass with xeriscaping and changing flushing behaviors.
"Back in the day, it used to be, 'If it's yellow, let it mellow,' so we could bring that back," she said. "The social norms have shifted that your toilet should always be pristine and clean, but we're literally taking clean water and flushing it down."
According to the MWD, the member agencies affected by the one-day-a-week watering rules will ultimately be responsible for staying within their allocation. They will also be required to submit an enforcement plan to the MWD. Those that don't cut back enough will be charged $2,000 for every additional acre-foot of water.
Areas that rely heavily or entirely on the State Water Project range from Calabasas to Pacific Palisades, and from North Hollywood to El Monte.
MWD managers have calculated the allocation of about 80 gallons per person per day for these areas based on the available supplies. The figure includes 55 gallons per person per day that the state is delivering for “health and safety” purposes through the State Water Project, plus 25 gallons per person per day that the district has available in its system this year, Hagekhalil said.
The affected agencies include the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, Calleguas Municipal Water District, Inland Empire Utilities Agency, Las Virgenes Municipal Water District, Three Valleys Municipal Water District and Upper San Gabriel Valley Municipal Water District.
Those agencies, which together serve millions of customers in Los Angeles, Ventura and San Bernardino counties, were selected for the cuts because they rely heavily or entirely on allocations from the State Water Project, for which allocations were slashed to just 5% this year after a record-dry January, February and March.
Ellen Cheng, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, said the agency has had Phase 2 water restrictions in place since before the previous drought, and noted that their customers average about 111 gallons per person per day.
Areas that have alternative water sources, such as the Colorado River, will be spared from the mandatory cuts for the time being. But the Colorado River is also facing a major shortage, and officials in those areas are similarly working on ways to conserve.
In Santa Monica, for example, overall water use is about 103 gallons per day, including commercial and other industries, while residential use is less than 80 gallons per day, said water resources manager Sunny Wang.
In Beverly Hills, which also receives Colorado River water and is not subject to the MWD's latest cuts, residents use between 80 and 180 gallons per day "depending on weather conditions," said Public Works Director Shana Epstein.
Other water suppliers in California are similarly responding to the drought with more stringent water-saving mandates. In the Bay Area, the East Bay Municipal Utility District this week ordered a mandatory 10% reduction in water use for its customers.
Hagekhalil stressed that people should save water however they can, not just by cutting outdoor watering but also by doing things like not refilling swimming pools, or using pool covers to prevent evaporation, as is already required under some local ordinances.
“This is a natural disaster, and we need to act as if it is like an earthquake or a flood or a hurricane. This is how we should treat this,” he said.
This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times

80 gallons a day seems like a lot to me, but I'm guessing it is an average that includes corporate use?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-01 17:44:07

https://stacker.com/stories/2592/how-mu … mmon-items

https://allusesof.com/earth/30-uses-of-water/

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/how-do-we … ve-3157863

Household Water Uses
Common household uses consume a lot of water. It may take between 30 and 40 gallons for one bath while the average toilet uses about 5 gallons of water per flush. Other estimated household use averages in America include:
Approximately 20 to 40 gallons of water for one shower.
Washing machines use an average of 25 gallons per load.
The kitchen sink takes roughly 20 gallons per day for preparing food and washing dishes.
The bathroom sink, used for washing hands, shaving and brushing teeth, requires about 15 gallons per day.

I must be really frugal as I buy 8 gallons a day for 5 to use

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-01 20:32:36

For SpaceNut re #164

Thanks for the posting of typical water usage ... and thanks for the example of frugality ... you ** and ** the family could probably do well on a camping trip, or an expedition, for that matter!

I just realized that the water company provides usage information, that could be translated to gallons per month, and thus per day.

It seems to me that millions of folks who live in the red shaded areas you showed us in drought map recently will need to learn from your example!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-04 20:49:56

side benefit to using the The Salton Sea could produce the world's greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work

process is described as well as the through put and its the lack of care for where the water is going that is the focus

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-05 16:45:03

https://www.yahoo.com/news/colorado-riv … 43985.html

public
Will Colorado River shortages limit water use? Arizona cities seek 'culture change' first
Brandon Loomis, Arizona Republic
Wed, May 4, 2022, 6:00 PM
Arizona’s cities should consider imposing unprecedented restrictions on outdoor water use if the Colorado River’s flow continues to decline as expected this year, the state’s water resources director says.
Scottsdale and Tucson already have declared themselves to be in the first stage of their respective drought plans, and are reducing government water uses. Phoenix plans to take payments from the state in lieu of some of its Colorado River deliveries next year, part of the state’s latest drought mitigation effort.
But these and other Arizona cities are not hiring water cops like those who patrol Las Vegas streets watching for waste.
Should they? Arizona’s top water official can’t order it, but he suggests the time for cities to enforce their own urban water savings outside the home is fast approaching.
- ADVERTISEMENT -

These folks are heading toward living like Martians!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-05 20:52:58

Several draught control items on the days news

California declares unprecedented water restrictions amid drought

saw that water was also going to be restricted for what ends up in lake meade

We have also talked about the power aspect of how much is required
California Is Impoverishing Its Low-Income Residents With Electricity Prices

California residential users now pay about 66 percent more for electricity than homeowners in the rest of the U.S., who pay an average of 13.72 cents per kilowatt-hour now average of 22.85 cents per kilowatt-hour.

ouch

U.S. takes unprecedented steps to replenish Colorado River’s Lake Powell

U.S. officials on Tuesday announced unprecedented measures to boost water levels at Lake Powell, an artificial reservoir on the Colorado River that is so low as to endanger the production of hydroelectric power for seven Western states.
Amid a sustained drought exacerbated by climate change, the Bureau of Reclamation will release an additional 500,000 acre-feet (616.7 million cubic meters) of water this year from the Flaming Gorge Reservoir upstream on the Wyoming-Utah border that will flow into Lake Powell.
Another 480,000 acre-feet that otherwise would have been released downstream will be retained in the artificial lake on the Utah-Arizona border, officials said.
One acre-foot, about 326,000 gallons (1.23 million liters), is enough water to supply one or two households for a year.
The additional 980,000 acre-feet in Lake Powell, formed when the Colorado River was dammed in northern Arizona in the 1960s, will help keep the Glen Canyon Dam’s hydroelectric production online, raising the reservoir’s record low surface by 16 feet (4.88 meters), the bureau said.
If Lake Powell, the second largest U.S. reservoir, were to drop another 32 feet, the 1,320-megawatt plant would be unable to generate electricity for millions of people in Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and Nebraska.

So its about power production and not the water to be used....

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-07 11:14:55

https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizona-offi … 21881.html

The article at the link above reports that water will become "costly"

The business question that flows from this prediction is:

How much will the market bear?

Is is possible to supply whatever the market is, and make a consistent profit?

LA Times
Water shortages on Colorado River could eventually hit California, Arizona warns
Ian James
Fri, May 6, 2022, 10:29 PM
A rainbow hangs over Lake Powell on March 28 in Page, Ariz. Lake Powell has declined to just 24% of full capacity, the lowest point since it was filled in the 1960s following the construction of Glen Canyon Dam. (Justin Sullivan / Getty Images)
In another sign of trouble for California's scarce water supplies, Arizona's top water officials said the worsening depletion of the Colorado River's reservoirs will require serious action to combat the effects of a 22-year megadrought that shows no sign of letting up.
Federal projections show Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the country’s two largest reservoirs, will keep on declining in the coming months, reaching a shortage level likely to trigger larger water cuts in 2023 for Arizona, Nevada and Mexico — and which could also eventually force similar reductions in California.
“The gravity of the immediate situation is serious,” said Tom Buschatzke, director of the Arizona Department of Water Resources. “We expect further significant actions to reduce water use will be required.”
The Colorado River supplies water to nearly 40 million people, flowing to cities, farmlands and tribal nations from the Rocky Mountains to Southern California. The river has for decades been chronically overused. So much water is diverted that the river’s delta in Mexico largely dried up decades ago, leaving only scattered natural wetlands in an otherwise dry river channel that runs through farmland.
State and federal officials spoke at a meeting in Phoenix on Friday, three days after the federal Bureau of Reclamation announced plans to reduce the amount of water released from Lake Powell this year to reduce risks of the reservoir's water level falling too low at Glen Canyon Dam. Last year, the dam generated enough power to meet the needs of more than 300,000 homes — something it would not be able to do if the water levels plummet so badly that it can no longer generate electricity.
Buschatzke added that more needs to be done to protect water levels in Lake Mead, which releases water that flows to Arizona, Nevada, California and Mexico.
Lake Powell, which straddles the Arizona-Utah state line, has declined to just 24% of full capacity, the lowest point since it was filled in the 1960s following the construction of Glen Canyon Dam.
The water that is released from Lake Powell flows through the Grand Canyon and reaches Lake Mead near Las Vegas. Lake Mead has dropped to 30% of full capacity, its lowest level since it was filled in the 1930s during the Great Depression.
The latest projections, Buschatzke said, show the reduced releases of water from Lake Powell will result in a roughly 22-foot drop in Lake Mead’s level.
“It's about maintaining flows in the Colorado River, including through the Grand Canyon,” Buschatzke said. Because if the flows were to be severely restricted, the declines in Lake Mead would accelerate.
Buschatzke noted that the surface of Lake Mead now sits just under 1,054 feet above sea level. If the reservoir were to drop to 895 feet, he pointed out, it would reach "dead pool” — the point at which water would no longer pass through Hoover Dam.
The federal government’s latest plan will involve releasing about 500,000 acre-feet of water from Flaming Gorge Reservoir, which is located upstream, and holding back an additional 480,000 acre-feet in Lake Powell.
California, Arizona and Nevada used 6.8 million acre-feet of Colorado River water in 2020. (Each acre-foot is enough water to cover a football field about 1 foot deep.)
If Lake Powell were to drop to lower levels, below elevation 3,490 feet, water could still be routed through four 8-foot-wide pipes, the dam's river outlet works.
“However, if the lake were to decline, that capacity to release water lessens,” said Daniel Bunk, chief of the Boulder Canyon Operations Office for the federal Bureau of Reclamation. “There's a lot of uncertainty with operating below that level.”
Over the last several years, state and federal officials have repeatedly negotiated deals to try to reduce risks of the Colorado River's reservoirs falling to critically low levels.
In 2019, representatives of the seven states in the Colorado River Basin signed a set of agreements called the Drought Contingency Plan, which included a pact between California, Arizona and Nevada to take less water from the river. Mexico has agreed under a separate deal to contribute by leaving some of its water in Lake Mead.
With the reservoirs continuing to drop, water officials from California, Arizona and Nevada signed another deal in December to again take less water from the river.
Despite those efforts, the reservoirs have continued to drop.
Scientists have found that higher temperatures caused by climate change are making the drought much worse than it would otherwise be in the watershed. They say the warmer atmosphere is effectively “thirstier,” drying out the soils and evaporating moisture off the landscape, reducing flows in streams and the Colorado River.
“We're getting way less runoff than we're getting precipitation, which is a very disturbing trend, and something that will be challenging for us managing the river moving forward,” Buschatzke said.
Last year, the amount of inflow into the reservoirs was the second lowest on record, just 32% of average. This year, the snow was just a little below average but the inflow from it is projected to be just 62% of average, Bunk said.
“We do seem to be getting the precipitation, but other factors such as warmer temperatures, the dry soil conditions … they all seem to be conspiring, to some extent, against the actual runoff,” he said.
Buschatzke said the Southwest needs to adapt.
“Our future is probably what we would now call living with shortages,” he said. “We all have to come together to help solve these Colorado River issues.”
Arizona gets an estimated 36% of its water from the Colorado. Farmers in parts of the state are coping with drastic cutbacks in Colorado River water, drilling wells to try to partially make up for the shortfall.
This year, the reductions in water deliveries in Arizona total more than 800,000 acre-feet, about one-fourth of the state’s total apportionment.
So far, the cutbacks largely haven’t affected Arizona’s cities, but officials said the state could eventually seek to reduce outdoor water use.
“We need to dig a little deeper, be even more innovative and creative," said Ted Cooke, general manager of the Central Arizona Project. "Additional voluntary conservation is necessary and may delay larger mandatory shortages.”
Buschatzke said the state is preparing to deal with additional cuts next year, and even larger cuts could come across the region in 2024.
He noted that California is on track to use more than its apportionment of 4.4 million acre-feet this year because the state’s agencies are withdrawing some water that they have saved in Lake Mead, as allowed under the 2019 drought agreement.
California has stored 1.3 million acre-feet in Mead, and will take out about 250,000 acre-feet of that water this year to help as the state’s other supplies have shrank during the drought, said Bill Hasencamp, manager of Colorado River resources for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California.
“We’re only taking a small portion of the water that we put in Lake Mead,” he said.
“We’re asking our customers to increase conservation this year. But despite the increased conservation, we need that extra Colorado River water,” Hasencamp added. “We put it in there for a dry day, a dry year like this year, and that’s why we’re having to take it out.”
Nearly two weeks ago, the water district declared a shortage emergency and ordered restrictions on outdoor watering to conserve limited supplies from Northern California that are delivered via the State Water Project. The restrictions, which will vary for each water agency, are set to take effect June 1 in parts of Los Angeles, Ventura and San Bernardino counties.
Other areas of Southern California that rely mainly on Colorado River water aren’t subject to the restrictions. But the Metropolitan Water District has urged everyone across the region to reduce water use by 20%.
Buschatzke, the Arizona water official, said his state wants to avoid the severe restrictions currently being implemented in California.
“We don't want to be living on health and safety allocations of water in our state. And we may be in that place at some point in the future,” Buschatzke said. “We're committed to doing everything we can to avoid that outcome.”
This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times.
Our goal is to create a safe and engaging place for users to connect over interests and passions. In order to improve our community experience, we are temporarily suspending article commenting.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-05-07 12:40:00

The onsite rep in Arizona wrote that my 1 liter drone idea seems "unimaginable" at this time.

Instead, he's looking at drones to carry a metric ton of fresh water from Alaska to Phoenix.

That could be done with existing equipment (eg, Global Hawk) with modifications to use hydrogen instead of whatever fossil fuel they are using now.

The flight control facility could be located in Arizona, which would provide employment for local residents.

These larger drones could ** still ** pull solar radiation with cells on the upper surface of the winds, ** and ** ride air currents as birds do, since much of the route is over mountainous terrain.

It seems to me there's a lot to like in this larger version of the drone idea. The key is that a large industrial customer has been identified who has an unnegotiable need for fresh water, so funding seems likely to be available if the business plan looks sound.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-05-07 16:37:12

Another view of growing challenges...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizona-brac … 48160.html

The Guardian
Arizona braces for additional water cuts amid megadrought
Victoria Bekiempis
Sat, May 7, 2022, 11:03 AM
<span>Photograph: Caitlin Ochs/Reuters</span>
Photograph: Caitlin Ochs/Reuters
Arizona water authorities are bracing for additional cuts to the quantity of water supplied by the Colorado River, prompting calls for more aggressive conservation measures to prevent further reductions. Officials in Arizona state predict that these cuts could come as soon as August, the Phoenix NBC Affiliate 12 News reported Friday.
Related: ‘Wall of fire’ sends residents of more than 700 homes fleeing in Arizona
These expected cuts stem from the effects of a decades-long megadrought, which has been greatly exacerbated by the climate crisis. Moreover, the Colorado River, which provides water to almost 40 million people, has been imperiled due to decades of overuse. The river’s reservoirs, Lake Mead and Lake Powell, have seen worsening declines in their water levels.
Arizona is typically granted 2.8m acre-feet of water from the Colorado River. The US Bureau of Reclamation, which manages water and hydropower in the south-west, declared its first water shortage in 2021; federal mandates and state-based efforts resulted in Arizona leaving 500,000 acre-feet “behind Hoover Dam” this year, according to AZCentral.com.
The Bureau of Reclamation makes mandates based on water levels in Lake Mead, which are determined by upstream disbursements from Lake Powell. The water level in Lake Powell has approached the minimum required to produce hydropower that provides electricity for several million residents, AZCentral.com said.
Arizona’s department of water resources, and Central Arizona Project (CAP), have insisted that the state must take further measures to save water. Tom Buschatzke, the water department’s director, said that if the reclamation bureau predicts further cuts in 2023, “there should be serious consideration by water providers to start going down that path”.
“Most of the water use is outside the home,” Ted Cooke, CAP Deputy director, reportedly said to 12 News. “It’s in the yard, it’s pools, it’s plants, it’s lawns.” While Arizona water providers have never required residential water reductions, some city governments did curtail their own usage amid a severe dry period in 2004.
Buschatzke said that if water from the Rocky Mountain snowpack does not boost the reservoirs in 2023, a more serious shortage could impact Arizona cities’ water supplies. “Look at all of those factors and it’s probably time to start doing something at the homeowner level or the business level,” Buschatzke told AZCentral. “I can’t dictate that, but I might urge those folks to consider doing that.”
Officials said that Arizona homeowners are not likely to see “dry taps” anytime soon, as there have been initiatives to store unused Colorado River water in underground aquifers. However, it’s possible that cities will consider tapping these reserves for outdoor purposes, which could start depleting them – without any clear path to replenishing the water, AZCentral.com reported.
In addition to Arizona, potential water cuts next year could also impact Nevada and Mexico and, eventually, California. “The gravity of the immediate situation is serious,” Buschatzke, told The Los Angeles Times. “We expect further significant actions to reduce water use will be required.”
Our goal is to create a safe and engaging place for users to connect over interests and passions. In order to improve our community experience, we are temporarily suspending article commenting.

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SpaceNut · 2022-05-07 20:13:25

I was thinking of something much larger than a drone but more along fire fighting size to deliver water from the ocean to the target pool.

“The water tanks can be filled in 12 seconds by the scoops.”

https://gacc.nifc.gov/nrcc/dispatch/avi … psPlan.pdf

https://www.fs.usda.gov/sites/default/f … 041316.pdf

https://www.aerospace-technology.com/pr … rdier_415/

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-08 06:36:58

For SpaceNut re #172

Thanks for continuing to think about how we humans might be able to address the challenges we face as the lack of naturally delivered fresh water becomes more and more of a concern.

In reading about the Global Hawk yesterday, I learned that the vehicles are already obsolete, and the services would like to get rid of them, but Congress is hanging on for the time being. Newer equipment is in development.

A water delivery capability does not require stealth capability, so those older vehicles are likely to be on the surplus market before long. They could most definitely be used for spot delivery of water. Each can carry 682 kilograms of payload.

However, I suspect that when the idea of drone delivery of water becomes recognized as an option for planners, vehicles will be designed that are optimized for the water delivery task. We are putting the lives of pilots at risk right now because we don't have an alternative.

***
The time to prevent forest fires is ** before ** they start. I realize that is a tautology. I'll let it stand.

I am working on the proposition that humans can pick up the ball from Ma Nature, where She has dropped it.

The simple fact is, Ma Nature could not possibly care LESS about what humans may prefer.

The example Ma Nature provides, for delivery of fresh water around the globe, is available to humans for study.

Ma Nature uses nothing but photons to move billions of tons of fresh water around the Earth every day, 24 hours per day.

What I am proposing is to use the exact same mechanism (photons) but improve on Ma Nature's performance by placing fresh water where humans want it, when it is needed.

Fresh water is needed by forests and grasslands alike, and in sufficient quantity to meet the needs of the living things that are present, but not so much as to cause erosion or flooding.

The recent invention of drone swarms shows the way forward.

Ma Nature delivers individual water molecules, using atmosphere as the carrier, and photons as the power source.

We humans may find an optimum quantity of water to be delivered by drones.

We have on the table a suggestion to go for 1 kilogram delivery packages, and another for 1 metric ton packages.

There would appear to be plenty of alternatives between those extremes.

It is a challenge for our (mostly younger) fellow humans to work out the details.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-05-08 12:07:40

https://ktar.com/story/5042317/gov-doug … pert-says/

ARIZONA NEWS
Gov. Doug Ducey’s plan to use desalinated water in Arizona will be pricey, expert says
May 6, 2022, 4:45 AM | Updated: 4:54 pm
A farmer shows the desalinated water used to water sown field at the Atacama desert, in the outskirts of Antofagasta. (MARTIN BERNETTI/AFP via Getty Images)
BY TAYLOR TASLER
KTAR.com

PHOENIX — Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey is making a push to bring desalinated water to the state with a potential $1 billion investment, but an expert says that is going to be expensive.
“That water will cost a lot more money than what we’re used to paying now, at least double, or in some case triple, for the raw water,” Tom Buschatzke, director of the Arizona Department of Water Resources, told KTAR News 92.3 FM.

Buschatzke estimates an acre-foot of desalinated water could cost in the ballpark of $3,000, while non-desalinated water is typically $50 to $150 per acre-foot.
He said a family of three in the metro Phoenix area uses about 1 acre-foot of water a year and that cities would decide what the final water prices are for consumers.
Explosive population growth will bring challenges to metro Phoenix's water future
Arizona farmer says water cutbacks make growing crops difficult: 'It's hurting us very bad'
Groundwater pollution may be an overlooked aspect of Arizona water issues
Rural community outside of Scottsdale divided on its water future
Experts say Arizona is entering an era of limits when it comes to state's water future
Buschatzke said the state is probably around a decade away from being able to use desalinated water, which he stresses does work.
“The technology for (desalinated) is proven and the cost because of the technology improvements is going down,” he said.
The city of Goodyear has a small desalination plant where it takes underground water that is salty, which Buschatzke calls brackish groundwater, and cleans it for use.
The plan includes helping fund the building of a desalination plant in the Sea of Cortez in Mexico. The state would not own the plant but would buy water from it. Buschatzke estimates the cost to build the plant would be in the neighborhood of $2.5-3 billion.
Ducey’s plan now hangs in the balance of the state legislature and it is expected to be voted on by the end of the session.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-05-08 12:09:53

The report above contains useful cost figures for study:

Buschatzke estimates an acre-foot of desalinated water could cost in the ballpark of $3,000, while non-desalinated water is typically $50 to $150 per acre-foot.

From recent posts in this topic, we have a price/value of $830 (USD) per ton of potable water from WalMart.

I'm not clear on how the price of $3,000 per acre-foot compares to WalMart's price so will attempt to find out.

I asked Google:

how many tons of water are in an acre-foot of water
About 120,000,000 results (0.73 seconds)
Conversion number between ton (water) and acre-foot [ac ft] is 0.00082556883206703.
ton (water)-acre-foot conversionhttp://conversion.org › volume › ton-water › acre-foot
About featured snippets

OK.... it would appear that there are 1 divided by .0008257 tons of water in an acre foot.

If that is the case, then (my calculator says) there are 1211 tons of water in an acre foot. (rounded down).

In ** that ** case, an acre-foot from WalMart would cost: 1211*830 >> $1,005,367 (USD)

The person quoted in the article is complaining about $3000 per acre foot?

Good Grief!
\
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