New Mars Forums

I think that there will be a difference in how materials can be acquired into orbit from various worlds.

1) Rubble Piles, likely can simply have materials removed with special crafted machines.
2) Very small worlds, like Ceres might dominantly use space elevators.
3) Small worlds like the Moon and Callisto might use mass drivers maybe rotavators.  Or at greater expense, rockets.

#1 includes some terrestrial crossing worlds, Demos, Phobos, and the Main Asteroid Belt, the Greek Asteroids and the Trojan Asteroids.
#2 includes Ceres, Vesta, and other exceptional asteroids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
#3 Includes our Moon, Mars, Callisto, Ganymede, Mercury.

Wields beyond the orbit of Jupiter may tend to be ice bound with less exposed rocky materials.  Although Titan might have dunes of comet dust, (Or not).

#1 could export raw materials, rocks more or less.
#2 could export raw materials and finished materials.
#3 probably has to export finished materials Like Satellites and Rocket Stages with on board propulsion methods.

So, Earth is not 1, 2, or 3.  The Moon is #3.
Deimos and Phobos are #1, and Mars is #3.
The asteroid belts include #1 and #2.

So, although the Moon can be an asset with very large effort, Deimos and Phobos, can offer raw materials to orbit with relative ease.  Although Mars is a grunt, small amounts of what Deimos and Phobos lack can probably be extracted from them.

To get to the asteroid belt is to get the full spectrum of materials to orbits, relatively easy and in bulk.

I favor the sinter shell with a rotator in it to give synthetic gravity.  Here is how the bearings could be handled:

I think current advanced train technology could handle it.  The relative speed at the shown positions of rails, as bearings will be slow enough, I think.  Like a washing machine, it the rotator gets out of balance the speed of the rotator can be reduced, until the load is corrected.

In the prior post I have shown a junction of two sinter jar devices, but 3, 4, 5, and 6 at a junction might be possible.

So, Phobos and Deimos could be converted into enormous platforms with large inertia from which perhaps Mass Drivers might launch loads.
Bringing Ammonia and Methane up from Mars to compliment the materials of the two moons of Mars.

The rotor could be spun up from standstill while vacuum pumps evacuate the area between the sinter shell and the rotor.  In the event the rotor has to be slowed down, a careful refilling of the vacuum with air might help facilitate that.

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I am hoping that Demos/Phobos/Mars & the Asteroid Belt, may be able to send materials to the Earth/Moon orbits and to the Moon.

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https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism Put out a nice video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DUydTgyGQ0
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Two of three possible purposes for this sort of thing are mentioned.
1) Orbital power beamed to Earth.
2) The Lunar Mass Driver Orbital Supply Chain (What this video is about)

A 3) Option which is data centers in space are not worked on.

But it is a very good video, and I learned a bit more about what is possible/practical and why.

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Types of synthetic gravity I think can be useful:
-Standard Earth Gravity Simulation. 1 g.
-Up/Down sensed gravity.  The Moon apparently is not enough for this. so >1/6th g and less than or equal to 1 g.
-Health Gravity could be less than 1g.  We don't know yet.
-Sanitary Gravity.  (Do disgusting emissions clean by falling to the floor?)
-Microgravity (Needed for many products to be produced. (We presume at this point).

I think that two primary structures of a double cone nature can be valuable to build and use.
1) Radiation Shelter, which also may provide additional protections.
2) Radiator.

I have already explained #1 to some extent.

But a Sanitary Gravity version amuses me.  This might be where you have a low velocity spinner, that can self sanitize with the low gravity and does not require a vacuum jacket to spin in.  I like to think of the gravity of Ceres as a possible target.

Because the gravity is so low, the interior is more of a 3D habitation than a surface habitation.  There could be gardens in this.

Because it is 3D, you can more effectively use the entire volume of the radiation shield.  Because it has a spinner inside of the radiation shell, some amount self-cleaning is imposed.

This would be a place where you might fly or operate like a monkey in a jungle.

I have suggested a floor appliance for this in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 23#p238323
Very funny, I think, a Shoe with robot fingers, maybe a lobster flaw grasper, eyes, and a robot brain.  Capable of taking voice instructions, and also responding to toe movements.  Perhaps connected to the brain with Neuralink.

From post #29:

The spinner and also the outer shell will both be pressurized.  The spin rate will be slow enough that this could be tolerated.  We only want a little synthetic gravity.

I have provided that there might be some window or fiber optic method to move sunlight into the interior.  However, honestly, I prefer the idea of artificial lights.  We are getting better at that, and we also understand that humans need red light and just a little UV.  So, it will not be office building blue light only.

Since the interior is going to be more 3D than 2D in function, much may be packed inside, and we may need a heat removal method.

Here is a cut-away view of two options:

The interior of the radiator may be Oxygen filled as it is a useful and yet very common gas to obtain.  Perhaps at 1/3 bar.

Robots within the radiator will have patching abilities to implement on short notice.

Here is how the radiator wall might be implemented:

The Chevron Radiator fins may shed heat into the vacuum and offer some protection from impactors.  Patching robots may respond quickly to patch a leak, it is hoped.

The tubing coils would allow a fluid to conduct heat to the radiator wall.  And you might use a heat pump process to "Amp" this up a bit.

The radiator is a reserve oxygen supply, and even an emergency refuge.  The Oxygen within will help to redistribute heat in the walls, if you add in forced convection fans to the process.

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We do not yet know how humans will adapt to the space environment.

Sitting in a chair or resting on a bed is a bit like being exposed to low or micro gravity.

I will suggest something really weird now.  Let's suppose you could sleep while you exercise in a 1 gravity field simulation.

So, then 8 hours of brain sleep while you exercise, and then you could do 16 hours of body rest while you were awake.

OK, let's modify that.  1 hour brain sleep exercise, and 7 hours resting sleep, maybe standing in a 1 gravity field.

Then 16 hours in low gravity, maybe more than microgravity.

Weird to think of, but maybe something Aliens might have arranged for themselves.

I think this is good materials for Sci-Fi Stories.

Oh No! My computer brain is making me do stupid things while I sleep and only lets me wake up occasionally.

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I am presuming you would have a computer augmentation to your brain system.  It could take you out while your brain was induced to sleep, and exercise your body.

This is a cultural item, I guess, and I don't want to start another topic for it, I will put it here.  The Cyber-cabs will be a form of transport robot.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

I am sure there will be denial and cultural resistance/disruption for this.

I expect that if it works on in one part of the USA or one country in the world, it will eventually become almost universal.

It is a curious matter that some kids may never get drivers licenses or learn to drive.

As for you, you will have to see what you care to believe about it and what you eventually get forced to believe.

I think that the old guard is already having some level of allergic level reaction to it.

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I guess I could put this here as reference, from a Grandparent Mind Inheritance for all of us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoiWdkuKr8  Quote:

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Having a further look at the previous post, perhaps I will have to change the title of this topic, but for now, I will not.

I have turned my eye further towards arid lands and grasslands.  These will tend to have greater differentials of day/night temperatures, which on Earth like a future partially terraformed Mars may have value.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/cold-sem … limate-bsk
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The map seems to indicate that North America has a large portion of land that is not quite desert, but may have some amount of useful moisture more than a desert.

This could be very useful, if an atmospheric condenser technology would become practical economically.

The climate is likely to have sunshine, and cold nights, and moisture to condense.  Additionally winter cold can move through much of its continental climate.

These tend to be the regions of North America with lower populations, except for Canada, where you have to find your better hope of farming where you can.

So, as areas where solar energy may have advantages, atmospheric condensation may also be in association with that:

Some prarie lands might also benefit from the method: https://slidetodoc.com/fire-ecology-of- … ms-ranged/

Some other maps are here: https://fity.club/lists/suggestions/Sem … imate-Map/
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Using cold, moisture might be better managed.

The solar panels will experience the cold of night, and so with the gel may capture moisture.

The soil being shaded by the solar panels, and being cooled with night air, and winter air, may be a reservoir of cold.

If the moisture in the gel exits the gel to cool the solar panels, it might be conducted to the cold in the ground.  And so become another sponge for moisture.  During the night when the gel may be absorbing moisture from the air, the ground and vegetation growing on it may give up moisture from the ground that the gel may absorb.

By putting up solar panels, the surface area of the arid area is increased, but the amount of total sunlight is not increased.  (Unless you send more from space).

More surface area means more cooling potential, and normally could mean more evaporation of exposed moisture, but the cooling gel may reduce net evaporation by capturing dew and near dew moisture from the air.

The cooling gel was apparently conceived of in Saudi Arabia: https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2025/0 … di-arabia/  Quote:

I expect that it increases efficiency as well by cooling the solar panels.
https://synthorum.com/articles/cooling- … fficiency/
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So, I think that if piping could double as support frame for solar panels, this might be useful.

My hope is that with more advanced robotics, the cost of such pipe/frames will be deflated over time.

I intend to adapt this to solar collectors on water at a later time, as I need to move on with my day now.

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I like that this is getting towards rational.  Not quite perfect but much better than notions of the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnMuL5rBoXw
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I do not think that sunlight only and vitamin D are the only part of the issue.

The vitamin D issue is also modified by wearing clothing and by staying indoors.  When it is cold, if you can afford to you stay indoors more and you wear clothes if you can.  This blocks even the sunlight you get in the winter.

India and Europe are different in other ways.  If you have to work outside in India, and the work is going to overheat you may expose more skin.

This then gives less permission for the skin to turn lighter.

And is pigment worth the trouble?  Is it even possibly a burden?  Why do cave creatures lose pigment?  I guess it must not be worth it to have it in a sunless environment.

https://sciety.org/articles/activity/10 … .14.664374
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So, I speculate that even if humans could generate vitamin D, as very distant ancestors are said to have been able to do, decreased exposure to sunlight may have promoted a skin lightening anyway.

Pigment is either a burden for the body to make, or might even be toxic to some degree, but more helpful than harmful in sunny exposures.

The burden issue is demonstrated by pale cave creatures.  (The best part is no part).  So, they get rid of it.  But the toxic issue, I have no evidence for, just speculation.

I think it is best to understand that skin tones are not Majic, but simply things that can be understood.

But as they said you also do need access to some sort of genetic method to lose pigment to have lighter skin.

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This material is a bit supportive of materials in this topic: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … r-AA1WO7dU
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Solar panels not only provide shade, but also potentially increase the surface area of the "Surface".

I think that the situation could be improved even more.
https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2025/0 … di-arabia/
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The notion is to add to the already listed benefits.

-The gel absorbing moisture from the air at night,
-Gives it up to the air during the day.
-Using forced convection, the moist air is conducted through a pipe network that is also the supports for the solar panels.
-The ground being shaded and cool may condense the moisture into liquid water, which leaks out of the pipe in the soil to water plants.

I anticipate as others do that robots will lower the cost of hardware, perhaps justifying this method.

Didn't think of it before but the plants, seeking CO2 will give up moisture to the gel, the soil will as well.

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So, regolith on Mars is one thing, sand another, clay another thing as well.

https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2025/06 … ient-life/
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Traditionally we think of using high temperatures to set clay into pottery or bricks.

It is thought that some Mars soil can be compressed into bricks.

But I am wondering if bio-welding might be possible of course I mentioned it in the previous post.

While I suggested piling fresh created permafrost as a form to make a shell over, perhaps a dry pile of regolith might be used, if you put down a vapor barrier on top of it and a tent over it that could holed some pressure temporarily.

Once again, the vapor pressure calculator may be helpful: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

If I understand the Urine Brick process room temperatures may be sufficient for the microbes.
So for 20 C > 23.2977 mbar

So the tent above the work area might be put to a pressure of 25 millibars if that is correct.

So methods to anchor it to the ground using stakes and cables, perhaps and perhaps piling regolith on its perimeter.  And then simply compressing Martian atmosphere into it.

I don't know if that would satisfy the needs of the microbes or not.  You might mix the clay with foods for the microbes I suppose you could start with a urine simulant.  Pack layers of clay down, perhaps mixed with a sand like material if available.  Perhaps also putting down several layers of mesh of plastics, metals, Carbon, Mineral Fibers???

For radiation concerns you might make it 2 or 3 meters thick.  But Mars has some atmospheric shielding for radiation and you might also stack loose regolith on top of it anyway.

In a vertical direction you would need about 100 feet of water or 110 feet of water ice to compress to 1 bar on Mars.
But presuming that regolith is at least 3 times as heavy then you need about 1/3 of that.

IF the air compression inside the dome is to be 1/2 bar of an N2/O2 mix, then 1/6th of 100 feet. (Very rough estimating).

So, about 5.05968 meters, I guess.

So, if the dome is 3 meters thick then you could put 2 or 3 meters of regolith on top of it.  As it would be a dome or an arch, it should not collapse under the weight and the weight should allow a atmosphere of 500 mbar inside of it.

In some cases, I would like to figure out how to build such things under thick ice layers or at the bottom of covered water reservoirs.

I still don't know if Urine Bricks can be made with Clay.

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I have been working on the notion of "Stone" habitats in orbit.  I have considered Ceres or perhaps other assets in the asteroid belt to be good places to try to do it.

I have wondered if it could be done in orbits of Mars, where you may have to lift Ammonia from Mars surface to orbit and then also use the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

And I still wonder about that.  But now, I would like to think of adapting it to the surface of Mars.

Here is the orbital materials which might be translatable to that idea: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 67#p238267  Post #30 of "Index» Terraformation» Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar/Double Cone, Ceres"

To be blunt, can we make a sone igloo?

Presuming that Mars surface materials have been processed, perhaps to get certain things out of them such as Iron, then the tailings might be incorporated into "Stone Domes".

I know everybody wants pretty glass domes with Unicorns in them, but I want a workhorse dome, not a Unicorn.

I presume that you have to get down to bedrock for the dome.  Then I suggest piling up regolith.  If you had a good source of water, could you cast permafrost?  Granted, Mars wants to dry it out, but drying out takes time.  You have a good source of water and can keep the permafrost moist.  You make a mound.  You put a temporary tent over it.  That will help keep the moisture in.

You then can use a microwave to melt just the outer few inches of the permafrost into mud. You add bacterial foods such as urine/urea.  You let the bacterial or other microbes cure it into rock.  You may have only one patch of the mound actively warm at a time.  You add more layers, starting at the base and moving up.  The Mars soil may be clay-like in places so this might be workable.

But the microbes have to work in rather cool temperatures, otherwise te permafrost mound will melt.

If this works, then after you have created a dome with a thickness of 2-3 meters, you may then enter the permafrost though a planned entrance of some kind and melt the mud that is interior to the dome and remove the mud as water vapor and regolith.

I think I can already improve on this.

Make your permafrost mound as a form, then put a layer of insulating Styrofoam on top of it.  Enclose this in a tent, then begin placing a clay-like mud on top of the Styrofoam and keep it warm with microwaves, keep it moist and add foods for the microbes.  You may only warm one patch of the dome at a time, to keep the permafrost mound frozen.

You may add things like a mesh of some substance, something similar to rebar and so on, to increase strength.

The enclosing tent has to be somewhat pressurized, otherwise a water phase is hard to establish at a temperature suitable for microbes.

Perhaps after the dome is made, you might pile dry regolith on top of it to thermally insulate it and to provide counterpressure to allow the interior of the dome to be pressurized.

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I have been wondering why the Romans who spoke an Indo-European language, had a lot of trouble conquering those to the north of them?  That is to an extent.  It is weird to my mind that perhaps the more Yamnaya inheritance a population had, they harder it was for them to create a income generating province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
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So, although they must have had some Yamnaya heritage themselves, provinces they created needed to be profitably farmable, and have a population of people that they could control.  The populations they might easiest control would be the descendants of the ancient farmers of the Anatolia origins, I speculate.  At some point they abandoned England as it was not paying off.

So, agriculture with passive captive peoples was their paycheck.  The Farmers provided the passive captive peoples.  All they had to do was decapitate a society and then install their approved flunkies.  The Yamnaya blood might not easy to domesticate.

The "Little Ice Age" came significantly after that time: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+did+t … pc=EDGEXST  Quote:

So, I speculate that periodic farming collapse may have favored a less obedient Yamnaya heritage over the relatively passive Anatolian farmer heritage.

England was worth the trouble for a time, but Pictland was more trouble than it was worth.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts
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The Greeks do not seem to have had an identical pattern.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece
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It may or may not mean something, but the Greeks seem to have had an almost equal exposure to the Black Sea as the Mediterranean Sea.

The Greeks may have been a bit more Yamnaya and less farmer than the Romans became at one point.

I regard the area of the Caspian Sea and Black See as a genetic and cultural mixing Zone.

I think that India has one, and that North America and South America have one as well.

As a nursery for accumulation of useful attributes, I think these zones are rather good.

But I think that the farmer cultures, breed such attributes out of the population, to create a submissive surf class and a psychopathic ruling class.  Neither of the two classes retain the desired skillful attributes in my opinion.

But farming is necessary to maintain large populations and so-called civilizations.

So, a farmer "Civilization" may burn-out, and then become subject to more capable people moving sideways on the map and taking over.

A farmer "Civilization" also may burn out as it may damage its soils over time and may exhaust the local mineral and forest resources.

From my point of view, the Middle East is burnt out.

Greenland burned out as well, the soils wore out and wood perhaps not available as much, then the "little Ice Age".

I am still working on this.

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So, far up until now for the greater part orbital reuse of space junk is not significant.  So, rockets have been focused on the payload.

I don't know that it will ever emerge, but a non-cargo mass to orbit concept might emerge eventually.  That is if the 2nd stage materials are regarded as having sufficient value for reuse, 2nd stages without payloads might be considered.

For instance, a non-reusable Starship might be built so that it has no payload but increased dry mass.  The economic circumstances for this may never emerge, but I just want to contemplate such a thing.  In the case of Starship, we are largely considering Stainless Steel as the material, but if you increase the amount of dry mass you allow, you might substitute other materials with a lower performance so that the Starship was not as Mono-Material in nature.

And this would only make sense, if the value of the materials in orbit were sufficient.  This could be true, if you intended to help build hardware with a good payoff such as Starlinks and Data Centers.

I guess we might think of the current Starship under development as a High Breed Racehorse.  Tuned to do the almost impossible.

But what I am suggesting is a Mule, not showy, but of economic importance.

So, although it is hoped to get some stuff from the Moon, this might get stuff to orbit earlier, and perhaps of materials not obtainable from the Moon.

And as the 2nd stage is intended for a one-time launch from the surface of the Earth, it can be built without the constrictions that reuse imply.

So, you might get away with including more Aluminum, Lithium, and Carbon for example.  These substances are lighter anyway.  You might make the propellant tanks still largely of Stainless Steel but then might make much of the rest of the ship of other materials which often may be lighter.

As for the Raptors, perhaps those would be returned to the surface of the Earth, with 2nd stages that are capable of return.  Reusable Starship and the 2nd stage of Stoke Space look like possibilities.

Some suggestions have it that a onetime Starship could lift 250 tons of payload.  So, perhaps you lift 250 tons of what you need, and then you take the ship apart.

The propellant tanks might be put into space stations as pressurized volume.  Of course, they then need actional mass to make them habitable.  The Avionics and engines to be brought down to Earth perhaps.  Then the rest of the dry mass and the cargo mass, may be recycled.  It seems that Aluminum might be the most easily recycled.  Perhaps the upper part of the ship if of Aluminum, could be converted into radiators for Data Centers.

Anyway, I think that the Superheavy, once established as useful and reliable, might be largely as it is now, of Stainless Steel.  And I think it might be usable to lift 2nd Stages for other rocket vendors who may or may not have Stainless Steel as the major component.

I am thinking of sized-up versions of Terran-R (Aluminum), Rocket Lab (Carbon), and Stoke Space 2nd Stage (Stainless Steel???).

Anyway as conversation, it is not wrong to ask these questions about such possibilities.  At least I think that it is OK.

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