New Mars Forums

I like this guy so far: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC  Quote:

You can sell your market, and you can sell your productive excess.

Robots.

Ending Pending

If taxes are shifted from income to importers, do we hurt the poor?  Well, we don't so much need to import bulk foods that our poor might eat, then a bed to sleep on, hygiene needs.  But the country is not only to be run for the poor, but also for the useful citizens.  Many things that might be imported are nice but perhaps not necessary.

Ending Pending

A Barometric Airlock.  I have been into that sort of thing for some time.

Search "Barometric".

I would suggest that you might look at what that could fetch.

If you had a shed on top of a lake which was covered in ice, then you might have a hatch that covers a hole in the ice.
If the shed can be pressurized to lets say 50 mbar of Martian atmosphere, then you could open that hatch and boiling would not be so much of a problem.

If you had a Hoist in the shed above the hatch, you would bring large items in and out of the lake.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
Actually  23.2977 mbar is enough for 20 deg C water.  So, you could probably go down to 12 mbar or so as the maximum pressure the shed would have to hold.  That would almost deal with 10 degree C water.

The Shed, would have horizontal doors like a barn, for instance that would need to be capable of holding up to 12 to 24 mbar of pressure.  When the shed was pressurized those doors would be closed, and the hatch could be opened in the floor leading into the lake a load could be transferred Lake<>Shed.

Then the hatch could be closed, and the "Barn Doors" could be opened and the loads transferred Mars Surface<>Shed.

While humans in suits could move though this method(s), it would be much more sensible to be more safely and efficiently remotely teleoperating robots from a safe spot at the bottom of the lake for instance.

Ending Pending

Search Barometric: https://newmars.com/forums/search.php?s … d=78699263

I hesitate to respond today, but have some lets say ideas that can be entertained in the mind.

Vesta was mentioned.  I wonder if while tunneling it out for mining purposes could a "Hill Shell" be built similar as to a Balloon of the sorts suggested in the materials of your post.  More or less a shell on the outer boundary of the Hill Sphere of Vesta.  I don't intend to see it purposely pressurized.  Rather sub-Balloons inside of it might be pressurized and then sub-worlds inside of those might be given artificial gravity.

Where Vesta may spin, this Hill Shell would be sun locked to resemble a tidal locked world.  So the one side would be warmer and perhaps tap solar energy.  The dark side being very cold, if air were to escape from the sub-Balloons, it would tend to condense as a frost on the inside of the Hill Shell.  And so could be recovered mechanically.  Vesta itself might be kept centered in the Hill Shell with magnetic force perhaps.

And then from the proceeding and receding sides of the Hill Shell a ribbon platform could extend outward to encompass the orbit of the sun.  This to collect energy.  The energy to flow through a common grid.  A sort of a Ribbon Dyson Element.

Something like this might be contemplated on a much smaller scale for the Moons of Mars.

Where Phobos is expected to break apart in a number of millions of years this structure could be better suited to endure for tidal forces.  But if Electron beams are a possible method of propulsion, could a Phobos ring and a Deimos ring modify each others orbital energy?  Deimos moves out due to tidal force and Phobos moves in.  Perhaps we can transfer these forces to each moon-ring from the other.

But perhaps I do not understand electron propulsion well enough yet.

But I feel it is good to try these ideas to better learn in that case, or to succeed even sometimes, maybe.

I guess that is a lot for now.

Based on the just previous post, some uncertainty exists.

The question of the value of the Moon.

The question of electric propulsive methods that may emerge.
New electric propulsive methods seem to be emerging.  Among those could use Argon or Metals as propellants, maybe Carbon and Silicon.  The obvious value of electric over chemical is efficiency with the larger consumption of time.  For the transfer of stuff this may be OK.  For transferring humans it may not be the best.

A Hybrid system which may be compatible with humans is to have a chemical booster or a nuclear thermal booster which pushes a electric propulsion system to a location, such as Mars.  That is entirely my own opinion, as I have not seen support for it before.

Typically, what to do is evaluated in a zero sum way. We will have an argument for Mars Direct, and an argument for electric propulsion as the method.  But I don't like that at all.  I think that we will want both, so that we can evaluate and perhaps incorporate Mars, Phobos, and Deimos into the expansion of human activities.

This should allow for a flexible reaction to changes in reality.  Reality may change due to discovery and inventions.

I think that SpaceX will likely attempt uncrewed missions to Mars at the very least.  I see little problem with that other than actually being able to pull it off.

Discovery could be a thing like discovering a better value for the Moon.  Lately, I have seen articles that suggest that the Moon may have considerably more water than we thought it did.

Here is an article which is already about 5 year old: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+Moon+ … A0&PC=DCTS  Quote:

So, if that is accessible, then it begins to suggest a changing future for the Moon.  After all I think it has about the surface area of the Americas.

If as I suggested in the previous post, another type of Starship could be made, where the Nose Section is made into space stations and the Locomotive Section is used as boosters to help launch payloads such as a Starship into deep space, a Lunar aspect could be included.  A Locomotive section might be used 1 or more times to do such a boost to a deep space Starship.  It also might be used as a shuttle from the surface of the Moon, a number of times.  But it also might then be retired to the Moon to become pressurized space.

Electric propulsion methods might be able to move chemical propellants around efficiently.  For instance, Methane and Argon from LEO to refill orbital ships, and maybe Oxygen and metals from the Moon to orbits, where they may be propellants for Starships and Electric propulsions.

This whole setup might be just for Earth<>Moon, but also might eventually facilitate trips Earth/Moon<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos.  We don't know yet.

One idea I am entertaining for Mars is that a Locomotive Section might boost a Starship converted to electric propulsion methods to a flyby of the Moon.  The Locomotive would separate and then find means to land on the Moon with or without refilling in Lunar orbits.  The Mars Starship from that point would already have been boosted so you might be cutting off some of the time penalty that electric propulsion creates.  The electric Starship would achieve Martian orbit, and would not directly land humans or products sent.

I am not sure, but this might allow the windows to be opened a bit more as is said to be true for Ballistic Capture.  You might indeed add Ballistic Capture methods.

Of course Large Ship Concepts could be fitted into this, I think, you would just scale it up.

Ending Pending

Interesting materials Calliban.

I think just now we need to keep the attitude of study, and yet to avoid malpractice.  About like doctoring, a lot of healing comes naturally.  But like navigating a boat on a sea with different currents, if we could understand better, we might choose to navigate better to some extent, to at least not pave the roads to hell for ourselves.

There are a number of problems, and I see though the glass dimly/darkly, to Plagiarize an old author.  Because of this lack of ability at good diagnosis, we should avoid hasty conclusions and only apply remedy if a greater certainty is achieved, or if emergency requires that we try something.

The idea of the "Blank Slate" has been quite a problem.  That there are no local specialties inheritable.  The archaic love to use it, masquerading as the moderns.  I attribute that to old cultures, molesting new cultures.  So, you can understand that I regard the USA as among the molested.

While the Blank Slaters want to claim that they can teach anyone to become anything, they also have joy in promoting tribalistic conflict.  They retain the rights to say who is the best and brightest and also offer themselves as the saviors of the downtrodden, while they promoted the conflict in the first place.

The NAZI did, and do that, even so indicating that they can identify who is superior and who is inferior.  Of course their thumb is on the scale, so that they can be "Them that am bestest".

It is interesting that the vote for Trump was to some extent less tribal.  That is males of various ethnic groups more than expected gave Trump support.  I think that is because these males have begun to realize that that thumb on the scale was putting them onto the "Eternal Boys Are Bad!" list.  I am guessing they have gotten tired of it.

It is mathmatically sensible to some degree for females to encourage some conflict in tribes, as it will sort out the losers so they don't have to mate with them and they also can pick a thuggy boy and help him eat his victims.  But this promotes less then Stone Age breeding.  All you produce are verbally skilled brutes.  You kill and eat the technicians.

In the post colonial era their has been a lot of vengeance seeking, and victim promotion, exploited by none other than the "Verbal and Violent" Blank Slaters!

And the historically upset from "Alien" oil money has also helped to molest the western societies.

But I believe that there is a swing and a sway to all of this, and that is for us to swing now and for them to see how good they are at dodging.

When you see a group of troublemakers, don't just focus on the male thuggies in the group.  Also look at the girls.

Ending Pending

I almost included this in my earlier post today: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d648&ei=11
Quote:

I might just be ignorant, but I would want to wonder if this could be tapped to do lesser tasks, such as propelling spacecraft in the hill sphere of Mars, by projecting beams from Phobos and Deimos.  To be sure the power supply is needed and sunlight is not too wonderful but might be workable at Mars.

And I wonder if the electron cloud that is behind each of these moons could make a contribution?

https://www.space.com/38530-solar-wind- … hobos.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7717305847

So, anyway, the (+) ions have a harder time filling the VOID behind the object, Phobos or Deimos, but the (-) electrons having less inertia may fille it more easily.

My hope would be that a sufficient power supply could be associated with these moons, and the electrons could be harvested to add to an electron beam to push spacecraft with relativistic electrons.  Certainly, this would not be used to launch interstellar craft, but perhaps it could be used in the hill sphere of Mars.

So, the electrons do have mass, I believe, so it is a matter projector.  And the inertial of the mass of the moons could accept the inertia from the recoil, I hope.

Ending Pending

Those are concepts worth considering.  I agree that after the interplanetary rocket jockey era, methods similar to what you describe may make sense.

You may be able to give assistance.  If we had a microwave oven in orbit tuned for it, could we heat dust in it and expose it to reducing agents, such as Hydrogen and Carbon, and hope to reduce the material until it can be electrically conductive?  A secondary process would then produce Oxygen from the gas outputs.  And it might be desired to subject the dust to other processes, to perhaps extract iron and maybe other substances.

But the leftovers if reduced, may be suitable to use in a Neumann Drive, I hope.  The Neumann Drive is new and I don't know how well it can be sized up, but it is supposed to compare well with gas type electric rockets.

We also have the possibility of using a combustible mix of LOX and Aluminum powder.  I would be a bit nervous about the stability of that however.

But I do wonder if we could make a paste of LOX and Oxidized dust from Phobos and Deimos to make projectiles to shoot out of a Mass Driver.  We might be able to mix in a little bit of Magnetite, if we would keep it from combusting.  Magnetite is already somewhat Oxidized, so maybe the risk is low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite  My expectations are that the LOX will evaporate, and perhaps the dust would dissipate when it does.  And so the evaporation and dust would be swept away by the solar winds, if the bullets did not hit the Mars atmosphere, or exit the Mars hill sphere.  Both the LOX and the Magnetite should react from the magnetic fields of a mass driver.

So, I agree, those moons could be supplying both construction materials and propellants of various types.

Ending Pending

The reason why I suggest the possibility of orbiting a Starship(s) around Deimos, is that it has already been done for Bennu: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … d-bennu-go  Quote:

This is a really nice answer, Quote:

However, I expect Mars to tug at the orbit over time so maintenance thrust will be needed.  The "Shadows Ship" would be a "moon-moon".

I am not doing a "Zero-Sum" contest here.  I think that development of Mars and the moons are equally important.  However, we do not know the long-term heath consequences of humans in a ~.38 g situation on the surface of Mars.
But we are somewhat convinced that an artificial gravity of 1 g may sustain human health for a time at least.  We could probably achieve that with a ballasted Starship, and a larger Starship.

And we also have the passivity that we need less propulsive expenditure if we do not land humans or many humans on the surface of Mars at the start.  We have the possibility of extracting Oxygen and radiation shielding materials, and metals from either Deimos or Phobos or both.

If we conclude that ~.38 g is not enough, then we have to take the long way after all.  But as I have said before this could be tested in LEO, with a Starship.  If we test a simulation of ~.38 g in LEO and it seems OK, then maybe we tilt towards humans more on the Mars surface.  If the results of the testing are disappointing, then we need to test for a full ~1 g simulation next, to get an idea if we could start in the shadows of Deimos and expand from there.

If ballast is added to the tail end of a Starship, then the center of rotation can be moved towards the back and you might be able to reach up to ~1 g in the nose of the ship.  But Dr. Johnson has suggested that without ballasting, a Starship could reach up to ~.5 g and so Mars simulated gravity testing could be done.

So, then we might have some data to plan our forward actions with more efficiently.

Pause................

Just now, I am contemplating the question, if it is possible to get some radiation protection by staying in the shadow of Deimos.  But auxiliary means of protection could be developed as well, anticipating using local resources from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

This is my first try at an "Ice Balloon Radiation Collar" for a ship, so have patience:

A toroidal balloon could be filled with an ice chunk.  Probably vapor phase to solid is preferred.  The structure then has some strength, and may be anchored to the ship with cables and standoffs perhaps.  I am anticipating the Hydrogen to come from Mars and the Oxygen for the water to come from one of the two moons.  So, this could be helpful for GCR also.  You could prefer the collar to be closer to the center of rotation, so perhaps your bedrooms and storm shelter are there as well.

To get this ship to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, I anticipate the use of a Chemical Burn Starship to give it a boost, and for the Converted Starship to use electric Argon as its finishing method of propulsion.  The Chemical Burn Starship as Booster may be reusable.  If you have a Nuclear Thermal Booster, then even better.

The Shadow Ship/Station might be upgraded over time, so that eventually it could come out into full sunlight and stop orbiting Deimos.

Again, I am sort of multiple ways on the idea of settling Mars.  I think we do not want Mole people on Mars only, and that Sky People are desired also.  Ideally the Martians will be free to be both at various time intervals.

Ending Pending

I have so far resisted the temptation to start a new topic.

If I did, it might be named "Mars, Underground/Surface/Orbital".  I am not trying to say that I have a brilliant plan, rather that I have continuing questions about objectives and methods.

I understand the logic of Mars Direct as promoted by Dr. Zubrin and others.  You will note that I included surface in my world-be topic, so I do not exclude the Mars Direct method, but I am thinking that very likely we want "All of the above".

I have seen recent ideas that Nuclear could get humans to Mars in a short time period.  But Dr. Zubrin has indicated that if you could do that, then you could send more stuff to Mars instead.  As far as I am concerned if you send freight, then you can use it to shield humans from radiation along the way.  So, there are many ways to look at it.

We think that SpaceX may in fair time, or eventually send robotic missions to Mars as precursors of discovery potential.
I have seen the idea of the X-37 doing atmospheric skipping.  Many new things are coming into view. https://www.livescience.com/technology/ … t-to-earth  Quote:

I am tempted to say, "Well, then why not do that with Starship?".  Perhaps it is possible, but also may complicate things.

But something that has sometimes annoyed me is that a Starship sent to Mars, could have drop tanks that it leaves in a sun orbit along the way.  Doing that it could have various items attached to its outside on the leeward side.  Those various items could use alternative methods to achieve a Mars orbit, perhaps.  The reason I like this is you have 6-9 raptor engines on a Starship, and if you have extra propellants in drop tanks, then you can make better use of them.  Granted the current fetish is reusability, but on occasion, SpaceX will expend hardware for a worthy purpose.

After Starship may have done the burn to exit Earth/Moon, the drop tanks could be dropped.  And as is worthwhile the various probes could be disconnected and left to their own resources to do whatever mission they may have to do.

Devices that have Electric Propulsion might make sense.  Possibly they could have other means such as heat shields to try to get into a modified orbit of Mars, and maybe also some small chemical thrusters.  Anyway by this then the moons of Mars could be investigated deeply, perhaps, and also there could be some orbiters that could be used for the landing mission support.

As the Starships will apparently have side by side propellant transfers, I think that the fixtures for a drop tank a bit like the Space Shuttles Tank could be supported.  And if this might work, it could be a way to get heavy hardware to Mars orbit in subsequent missions.  Such hardware might be sent to the operations for the moons, or maybe a Starship could fly up and fetch them down.

I am enthusiastic for surface and subsurface operations on Mars, but as I see it, this is a way to get a "Twofer".
I prefer to be a pessimist as to what resources the two moons may contain.  I hope for various common minerals, and also perhaps Carbon.  I do not count on Hydrogen or Water.

But from my point of view, if you could fetch some Hydrogen up to activities to process such materials from Phobos and maybe Deimos, then with solar heat you could likely pull a lot of Oxygen out of the moons materials while reducing the "Ores".  Even if the moons might have ice in them, this would likely be more workable than to dig down for it. at least at first.  Although you would have Hydrogen losses along the way, you might reuse the same Hydrogen over and over for this purpose.  Just splitting the water, you produced, and storing the Oxygen for propulsion and breathing.

Water and Carbon if available might make good radiation protection in orbit as well.  And you could make refined metals and glass, and slag bricks as well.  Having the means to obtain that Oxygen would facilitate returns to Earth, and also missions to the Asteroids and between Mars and the two moons.

I think that the idea of a chemical boost followed by an electric propulsion and then perhaps some aerobraking, would be a good companion process to a sort-or Mars Direct process.

In the previous post, Calliban gives some hope that Methane may already be available on Mars.  That could be an alternative also.  Starship could shuttle Methane up to the moons effort and the ships could be refilled for landing with Oxygen from the Moons.  Again, solar energy, but I suppose if you insist, nuclear energy could be used to heat regolith in the presence of Phobos or Demos regolith.

I will want to add the materials of this post from another topic to this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p229326

I have been an advocate for an orbital presence around Venus, recently.  An aspect of that was I felt that solar energy around Venus would be very favorable.  But if efficiency were 100% for mirrors, then you could amplify sunlight at Mars by 4 times around Mars, and get the same energy as you might in orbit of Venus.  OK, as efficiency will not be 100% then lets use 5 to 1 as the ratio.  So, sunlight for the orbit of Mars might be less than for Earth, but you could focus it to a high heat, and heat an oven containing regolith and Methane, and so reduce the "Ore", and produce H20 and CO2, perhaps.  You could recycle the Hydrogen, and use the Oxygen for propulsion and breathing, and perhaps the Carbon could be made into space structure along with the Metals and Glass.

This should keep some people from getting allergic, as many people here do not like solar panels, and for this activity, we do not have to worry about the inertia of the solar power mirrors and apparatus.  An the system might be able to generate electrical power as well, at times.

The same would be much harder to do on the surface of Mars.

And with Vast Space working towards space stations, eventually with artificial gravity, life support for humans in orbit of Mars may also be practical.  https://www.vastspace.com/

Ending Pending

OK, to start with, "I don't know", "I never knew".

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … d953d0221f  Quote:

The Innuit had skin boat technology to get to North America, I think actually that cultures have "Blooms" of genius, alternated with "Descent" into stupidity.

The thing is from time-to-time human individuals have a unusual genius.  I feel that under certain circumstances realty can favor the "Blooming" of genius in a population.

I think that shorelines have almost always been very rewarding to so called "Hunter Gatherers".

Various peoples have relatively recently made boats.  The Kells apparently had skin boats and visited Iceland.  The innuit used skin boats and might still.

Natives used boats at least on rivers.

I don't know for sure, but I think shorelines offer rewards.  I could imagine a "Bloom" of the Aboriginals if that is their name, who could have traveled coast lines.  I am going to guess that the interior of the North American continent was not a good place for humans due to predators.

But certain islands off the coast of Ice Age North America, might have been more habitable as these predators would not have been present as much.  The sea level would be much lower at times, so we don't know quite what those places may have been like.

So, for instance I expect that certain islands in the Pacific would have offered more land than they do now.  And coastal boating might have been a thing as it was how to get resources.

So, due to predators like the "Short Faced Bear", perhaps aboriginal peoples did make it to the coast of North America on the pacific, but stayed on or near the coast, and drifted down towards South America.

https://www.sealevelmap.io/
Image Quote:

It is my opinion that a Innuit like culture on the pacific coast could easily have developed methods to hunt sea mammals, and that like for the Innuit, winter ice is a good time to get things like seals.  So, if they had adapted up the coast of Asia towards Beringia, I would not be surprised if they could have migrated along the coast in search of sea food.

Image Quote:

Another thing that could have promoted migration could be pressure from other tribes competing for resources.

If they made it to the coast of Alaska, I think they would understand that if they traveled south things might get better.
And even coastlines that were glaciated, might offer winter ice that they could camp on to get things like seals.

Periods of a tribal genius could be prompted by an environment that rewards craftsmanship.  And this environment would give those rewards, but would unsuitable for "Football Hero" types.  Sorry that unfortunately is what I think.

Nature only rewards continuation of pattern.  If an environment favors killing your neighbor to get their stuff, then craftmanship is not rewarded.  But if the environment favors the intelligence of the hand and eye, then craft of materials may trump the eaters of neighbors.

If it were true that the interior of North America was not very safe from predators, and was less rewarding than the coast, I can imagine these people might just keep drifting south, as it would be more rewarding than to invent a new technology to go into the interior.

Later on for some reason the more dangerous animals died off in North America, and other peoples from Asia, maybe Central Asia, moved in after the ice barrier disappeared.  And eventually the Europeans and others.

I am not an expert, and don't pretend to be one, but this seems reasonable to me.

Ending Pending

This is an interesting feature of the human mind, that may or may not exist in some individuals:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/ … 6cdf&ei=17
Quote:

Probably an important feature.

Ending Pending

PhotonBytes,

It has gradually occurred to me that Mars/Phobos/Deimos can be a world for things that fly.  An ~.38 g world.  Optimists think that the bulk Mars atmosphere can become as much as 2.5 times as thick as it is now, from unthawed CO2 ice.

This would make the radiation situation on Mars much better than it is now.

Hellas, at its deepest point might be an air pressure of about 11.5 mbar.  2.5 times that would be perhaps 28.5 mbar, but the pressure would be more than that, as compression would make the lower layers of atmosphere denser and denser.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
That would allow a vapor pressure of 23.3 degrees C or more in that lowest spot on Mars.

Granted, for open water evaporation would be severely troublesome.  But I think that covered lakes/canals, might work OK.  Many Locations on Mars have a pressure of 9 mbar. 2.5 times that would be 22.5 or more, due to compression of layers.  So, in those locations a vapor pressure of 19.5 or more.

A method to heat that CO2 up is provided here: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scienti … -warm-mars  Quote:

So, if Mars could be altered in that way, radiation would be better protected from on the surface, and the operation of ships like Starship might be better facilitated.  The terminal velocity coming down would be improved, and the friction going up would not be that much increased, I think.  So Starship SSTO would be a thing I think, providing for materials interchanges with Phobos and Deimos.  And beyond that would be the asteroid belt.

So, I do not think that the best use of Mars is to become "MoleMen".  But even so, your ideas in some ways could be worth chasing down.  Especially with robotics being a very likely field of expansion of capabilities.

Near the equator, this apparently exists: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Image Quote:
Quote:

If the sediments over the ice are cemented reasonably well then you could dig a shaft and tunnel network in that, reaching into the ice body.

Underground cities in Anatolia: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=un … RE&first=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu … round_city

So, deep volcanic ash sediments could allow relatively easy digging into to make an underground city.
The ice may be relatively easy to dig into as well.

Suppose you dug a city, and put artificial lakes above it with domes.
You could dig diagonal shafts from the city down into the ice.  Diagonal, so that you don't undermine the city.

You might start like this:

By digging diagonal in the ice you can get makeup water, but not undermine your city in the volcanic sediments.

Then if you have some reason do dig deeper, maybe drill for geothermal you could do that below the ice layer.

And as this is to be near the Equator, then an orbital space community could be linked to this city, and they may trade resources.

Anyway, if you are going to dig then you have to start somewhere.  This place could provide both volcanic sediments and massive amounts of ice.

Ending Pending

This would fit in with an "Avian" Mars, and be supportive of an expansion to the moons of Mars and the asteroid belt.

Ending Pending