New Mars Forums

This new definitive proof that Mars was once very wet is probably a little less than stunning to most of us here. The evidence for past surface water seems overwhelming, at least to me, if you just look at the martian topography.

    O.K., so Mars was once very wet. Where does that leave us?
    Well, for one thing, we can now put Dr. Nick Hoffman's "White Mars" hypothesis to rest. It's no longer necessary to conjure up frigid scenes of erosion mediated by explosive eruptions of liquid CO2 from rock strata. According to Ockham, and now in accordance with hard evidence, we can look to the simpler medium of good ol' H2O to do the job.

    But what about all that olivine? Olivine can't exist for long in the presence of water and yet it's been found in all sorts of places on Mars, including low-lying areas which look like they must surely have been inundated in the past. Is it all just timing? Did the olivine originate in episodes of volcanism which have occurred since the surface water disappeared into space or retreated into underground aquifers?
    This is just one of the paradoxes of Mars which makes me think martian geological history is very complicated. We need a reliable timeline and that means cataloging and dating rock samples from all over the surface. If you think that means I want us to launch a Sample Return Mission, you're wrong! We need too many samples from too many locations. One geologist in a suitably equipped methane-powered rover could answer more questions about martian geology in one year than dozens of SRMs spread over decades and costing many billions of dollars. But that's another argument!

    But at least the unequivocal discovery that Mars was once very wet will push aside some of the 'ifs, buts and maybes' which have plagued debate about the Red Planet for so long. We now know that Mars could quite easily have given rise to microbial life in its early history - perhaps even earlier than Earth did. Therefore one of the major stumbling blocks to discussion about possible martian life has been removed.
    Although most people have very grave doubts that multi-cellular life could have developed on Mars, it's now no longer taboo to raise the subject in polite conversation! It may even allow NASA to look for at least the chemical signatures of past bacterial life in the martian rocks, without fear of ridicule.
    This is not something to be sneezed at! I see it as a major breakthrough in the sense that the old 'Mars is sterile and that's that' paradigm is now open to serious debate.

    As many of you know, I happen to believe Mars hosts a thriving biosphere of familiar bacteria, probably just below its surface. The Viking scientists, pinning their judgment and their reputations on an instrument since found to be inadequate, decreed they could detect no life on Mars. (The instrument was the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer, which subsequently failed to detect organic molecules in Antarctic soils known to contain breeding colonies of bacteria! )
    Since so many distinguished scientists hung their hats on the 'Sterile Mars' peg, it became professional suicide to argue the contrary view with any degree of seriousness. But most of those scientists are now either retired or dead. I can think of two Viking scientists who are no longer with us: Carl Sagan and Jerry Soffen, and others may also have departed this world. As far as I know, there is only one veteran of the Viking mission team working on the MER missions, Ben Clark.

    Maybe 28 years is long enough. Maybe we can forget about embarrassing a bunch of scientific elder statesmen who may have made a mistake in 1976. Maybe we can now start looking for evidence of life, both past and present, without rocking the boat(?).
                                                ???

    Just thought I'd share these musings with you. Does anyone feel the same way or am I all alone in this canoe I'm paddling?
                                                 

Cindy, forgive him for he knows not whereof he speaks!

    Come on Dicktice, let's not be too utilitarian in our outlook. Surely we can be permitted a little awe and nostalgia with regard to what was the pinnacle of technology in its day.
    In your world, we'd be breaking up the original Wright Flyer and using the wood for toothpicks!

    What would you do if you found the dilapidated hulks of the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria - chop 'em up and stick 'em in the potbelly stove next winter?! After all, they are old technology, aren't they?
                                                   :;):

Has anybody really had a good look at the rocks on Mars? I've been amazed at how many of them are extremely sharp and jagged, at least close to craters (ejecta, I suppose).
    It's difficult to imagine riding a bike through some of these places and I can visualise some of the rocks being very effective at getting wedged into metal tracks and even stopping a tank!

    If we're going to explore untravelled regions of Mars using wheeled vehicles, I tend to favour oversized wheels made of the toughest metal mesh we can produce. I think the bigger the wheels the better to facilitate progress over sharp boulder fields and to minimise the weight/unit area on soft sandy terrain.
    Even though tough, the mesh will need to be very flexible to avoid tearing. But carry at least a couple of spares if you're going very far into unknown territory! I don't think you'll be getting very good mileage from even the most rugged Goodyear mesh tyres!

    For more frequently travelled routes, I think there'll be no substitute for bulldozers to clear the way. I imagine they'll need to be heavy to get any useful traction in the 0.38g, so I suggest we we use heavy metal tracks for them. In Dr. Zubrin's book, "Entering Space", I seem to remember him pointing out that steel production on Mars will be quite straightforward and I can see no reason why we can't pour the liquid metal out in the open to produce track links and connecting pins etc.
    Flexible and durable hi-tech mesh might need to come from Earth initially, though.

    Why am I discussing tyres anyway?!!        

Referring to the picture of East Crater, with its striking white rim, Rxke mentioned the obvious depression not far outside Opportunity's crater. He went on to say he thought he could just make out a dark spot in the landing site photo which might be that depression.
    To me, the depression looks quite large and deep and yet it's almost undetectable in the landing site shot. But the first bounce of the airbag and the effect of the retro rockets has left an obvious 'scar' about 100 metres across (according to the scale given)!

    The airbag and rocket exhaust must have had a remarkable effect on this evidently fragile surface; an effect seemingly disproportional to any we might have expected(?).

    One of the purported lines of evidence of the 'Apollo Was A Fake' brigade was the minimal effect of the descent stage rocket motor on the lunar regolith immediately under the rocket. (This has since been comprehensively explained by NASA - not that the conspiracy lunatics took any notice of course! ) By comparison, the three MER retro rockets are relatively small and dropped the airbagged lander from an altitude of some 15 to 20 metres above the Meridiani surface.

    How did the airbag manage to deform or scar such a broad region of the martian surface? It doesn't seem likely the rockets could have contributed much to the surprisingly large mark.

    When you put this anomaly together with the unusual and unexpected 'magic carpet' effect of the airbag retraction, which looked like mud, and the peculiar way the small pebbles and spherules disappeared under the surface when pressed upon by the spectrometer, and the way the surface haematite vanished everywhere the airbags touched, you start to get the impression the Meridiani surface is more than a little bizarre!
                                              ???

    And yes, Stu, I have been getting a strange feeling that the cogs may be turning behind the scenes at JPL!
    It seems they've been getting a heap of data for some weeks now but keeping pretty quiet about it just lately. Maybe the official line is true, that there is still much work to be done before any conclusions can be reached. But maybe they've already reached an exciting conclusion which they're finding hard to digest and would rather keep it hush-hush until it's irrefutable.
    Who knows ... guess we'll have to wait and see!    :;):

Rxke:-

    As far as the Lebanese guy with the 55 year jail sentence goes, the answer to your comment is: Nope!
    A journalist visited the home of this young 'gentleman' and spoke to his parents and siblings and other relatives. They all tried to defend him!
    These people were trying to minimise his crime, even though this family member of theirs had orchestrated the whole rape by using his cell phone to call every Lebanese guy he knew to come and join in the sickening violation of an innocent young woman.
    I saw and heard this straight from the family on my T.V. set. This is not second-hand information exaggerated for political purposes.

    This islamic family just didn't get it!!

    It was as if a jail sentence for a young islamic man raping an 'infidel' woman of European origin was unthinkable. You could see it in their faces: "What's the big deal?"

    I find the whole thing horrific and, unless something is done to prevent the PCs from imperiously ignoring the people by sweeping this kind of thing under the carpet whenever they can, I can see nothing but trouble ahead.
    If governments continue to shirk their responsibilities by pussy-footing around this critical issue, we will surely see the emergence of vigilantism. If men see their women being assaulted and nothing is being done to stop it, it's only a matter of time before they will take the law into their own hands. There's only so much a normally law-abiding man can tolerate.
    Things could get very ugly.
                                                       ???

Yes indeed, Cindy ... the "Express Checkout Lane Conundrum", as first described in detail by Socrates and still unresolved to this day!
    An equally worthy question for the aliens - right up there with the left socks and coat hangers in my opinion.

Is the alternate universe into which all left socks and ball-point pens eventually disappear the same universe from which all the wire coat hangers originate?
                                        ???

[I believe this is probably the most fundamental question facing the average human being today.]

Cindy, you don't have to worry about missing butter and sour cream on your potatoes.
    I'm bringing a small herd of cows with us on Mars Direct 1 ... remember?!!
                                           

[Phobos used to ridicule me about that. Can't understand why.        ]

Luca, I don't really know what your hypothesis entails with regard to the rock outcrop. I have a suspicion, based on what I've seen so far, that I won't be convinced by it but I could be wrong.
    However, I fully support a person's right to submit ideas based on reasonable evidence, no matter how out-of-the-ordinary they may appear. I understand how scientific paradigms arise and I know how pervasive they can become - to the extent of stifling new ideas that 'don't fit'. I believe we need to evaluate new things with as much of an open mind as we can.

    Don't be too disheartened by No life on Mars, who appears to be having fun deriding you and Errorist for suggesting controversial explanations for martian surface features.
    I believe you have the right to air these notions here but I say again that you have to be prepared to be shot down by reasonable counter-arguments. My position on this, as I've said, is that I haven't seen anything in your photos which looks sufficiently unusual to require a controversial explanation.
    But if you find more and better evidence, I am prepared to listen.
                                                 

This is indeed a terrible tragedy and I would like to add my condolences to Cindy's.
    I admire the aspirations of the Indian people in the realm of space exploration; they've achieved a great deal up to now and there's no doubt in my mind they'll continue to make major contributions in the future.

    I have known Indians, some on close personal terms, and I have found them to be friendly, intelligent and cultured people. In many ways, I see India as a 'sleeping giant' in the process of awakening. It seems inevitable to me that she will soon realise her potential; and what tremendous potential she has!
                                               

Luca, I've often said here at New Mars that I enjoy a good mystery or a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person. But I'm having trouble seeing anything especially mysterious in these photos of yours.

    I believe rock formations can often assume peculiar shapes and an experienced geologist would probably look at the erosional features you point out here and explain them quite easily. Unfortunately, I know little about geology and I can only make guesses at their origins, such as wind/sand or possibly water/sand erosion

    However, even if we were to assume you are correct and that something has dragged over these surfaces many times to produce the grooves and angles, can you suggest anything which might have been responsible?
    It sounds to me as though you're insinuating that some kind of animal may have made these 'tracks'. Or have I misinterpreted your comments?
                                               ???

Hi Luca and welcome to New Mars!
    I think I see what you mean. But it's possible the strata, which are leaning 'backwards' perhaps because of the impact which caused the crater, have layers with different degrees of hardness.
    Windblown dust and sand could have preferentially eroded the softer layers, leaving the "90 degree angles in the rock" you mention.

    Your use of the word "artifacts" puzzles me somewhat. What do you yourself think caused the regular 90 degree groove?
                                             ???