New Mars Forums

And they are so eager for a mass slaughter in Europe as well.  I don't feel I have a grasp on everything, but maybe some things.  Who will benefit if say whole generations of men are killed in such a slaughter?  The survivors of course, under a condition of relative victory.

In the case of one gender, being in a position of rank of some kind, makes such a killing event more acceptable.

In the case of the other gender, the removal of the weak, leaves the surviving males to mate with.

All of the survivors, inherit the spoils if any.  Including the perpetuation of genes.

There can be psychopaths in both genders, one gender is the puppet for the psychopathy of the other gender in the guidance of hive minds.

But then there are basic instincts.  Tribal.  I do not read romance novels, but I hear that it is a form of the equivalent of pornography.  The instinct to want bad boys, even when compelled to be "Decent".

In the roots of a hive mind gone to mob and then to violence, don't overlook the instincts to promote a romance novel world.  In such a world two men fight one dies.  The wealth of two men go to one man, then by math two women seek to compete for that wealth for the sake of their real or potential or even imagined children.  Continuity of genetics.  Even so I and most men admire motherhood.

Not so much conscious but instinctive.

The madness of crowds, is that of mobs, and hive minds.  Often not rational, (Most of the time).

It is a sort of math.

Who is a liberal anyway?  I consider that I allow quite a lot for others up to the point of harm to society.  I allow a bit less for myself, as I am more aware of what harms I could do.  So, I exercise conservation to not damage circumstances.

Isn't it interesting that a leftist many who claim to like the idea of conservation, will not conserve the social order.

The love of a mother is to some degree instinctive.  Her children are after all her ticket to gene perpetuation.  But she does not necessarily have awareness of it.  She has the instincts and the emotions for it, we hope.

Another interesting factor I have not woven into the calculations is when sexual morality is actually a tactic to inhibit the successful gene perpetuation of another person or group which is in competition for the filling of existence.

As I have said, I do not see all of this yet, and maybe never will.

Human Tribal Genetic Math, underlying conscious and unconscious motives.

Evil, from psychopathy, evil from instincts/emotions.

But the underbrush seems to be very uncomfortable with the potential success that Trump and company may be able to install to this nation and maybe large parts of the world.

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In the last post, towards the end I sort of veered off on a tangent about polar ice caps.

I think I want to look at that just a little more for Earth and Mars.

Here I am not referring to costal areas where mammals and birds might hang out, I am thinking about the deep ice interior, which I suppose technically is its own biome, but has very little life.  So, if you could build on it without destabilizing the ice mass, you might do the least harm to other types of life.

I will say from the start that this is at least partially on the SciFi level as we only have some of the possible materials needed to make it possible.

And I think it may be more valuable to do it on Mars than Earth.

On Mars, Solar Cells that are transparent to visible light, and make electricity out of other parts of the spectrum might be of interest: https://energy.mit.edu/news/transparent-solar-cells/  Quote:

Image Quote:

The thing about it is you would have half of the Mars year with lots of sunlight and half with little sunlight.

During the sunny half, the solar panels could be horizontal to the icy surface, and during the darker half they could be put vertical, so that precipitation would not wreck them.  This would create some warmth under them during the summer, and you might have pressurized bags of water under them that could grow microbes as in Precision Fermentation.

In the winter you would retreat down into vaults carved in the ice or even down to the rock on the edges of the ice caps.  Or you would migrate to the other hemispheres ice cap which would be in summer.

The capture of summer sun on the ice caps might be part of a method to terraform Mars.

I would assume that at that time the average air pressure on Mars may have been brought up from 5.5 millibar to 2.5 times that (Maximum), so about 13.75 millibars, and a bit less on top of the ice caps due to elevation.

Using the combination of changing the summer albedo of the ice caps, and greenhouse gasses and the injection of particles into the atmosphere of Mars, it may be that the CO2 seasonal ice caps would be a thing of the past.

As for Earth's ice caps, I anticipate the similar type of solar cell, but putting aluminum foil under most of it to reflect light into space.

For such a method on Earth, you would have one season rich in power an the other poor in power.

Also for Earth ice caps finding a way to deal with shifting ice would be necessary.

I think it unlikely to do it much for Earth, but maybe not a bad idea for Mars.

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Some collection of potential tools has been accumulated on another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11053
Title: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Utilizing Superpower (Per Rethink X, Tony Seba)".

At the time of this post here, that topic had #1 through #24 posts.

The materials accumulated suggest that it may become practical to extract water, and CO2 from the atmosphere.

Also, it may be possible to scrub Methan out of the atmosphere at the same time. 

The hope is to accumulate benefits, as well as to modify the environment.

To produce clean water, fuels, food, and perhaps other things.

In such a world, the burning of a hydrocarbon fuel to get energy, is also a donation of CO2 to the atmosphere, and the CO2 in the atmosphere, becomes a transported resource.

Various locations may be suitable to create collections of devices that receive both water vapor and CO2 from the atmosphere.

This would change reality as CO2 in the atmosphere would no longer be a tool of the Doom Goblins and their Verbal and Violent, followers, who tend to form mindless mobs directed by people with bad intentions.

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Listening further in the video in the last post, they mention disposing of Methane in the atmosphere, from polar Clathrate if that becomes a problem.  Their solution is to use a catalytic metal to dispose of it, while extracting CO2 and Water Vapor.

Trees conduct lots of methane upward out of the ground.  But they have microbes in their bark that Oxidize the Methane.
So, I expect a microbial method to consume methane in the air stream that is mined, may be possible.

The article indicates that in about 7 years it will make more sense to make hydrocarbons out of atmosphere and solar power than to pull it out of the ground.

I do not feel competent to affirm or deny that.  However, robots are expected to drive much of hardware production down in price a whole lot, so I expect that that can be helpful to the cause, as you cannot do any of this without affordable hardware.

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Well said kdb512, I closely agree now.

It has occurred to me that the whole left right thing is a deception.

We can say democracy, but that leads to patronage systems to buy votes.

We can say Constitutional Republic, if done right then you have the taxation proper, and the representation disserved.

But redistribution of wealth either Fascist Socialist, or Anarchist Socialist, both require authority.  And Authority is the opposite of distributed power.

So, I feel that America really has gotten it half right, by distributing power, and the others have seldom gotten it right at all.  Perfection is not obtainable in this world, I expect.  You just have to be happy when it works out as often as it can work out in America, when America is as it should be.

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I feel that I have achieved a degree of satisfaction to the questions of my previous post in this post elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p231008
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It has now occurred to me that a method to capture CO2 from the atmosphere, could also involve a payoff of capturing water from the atmosphere.  The two together may be financially valid and may lead to a profit.

While it is entertaining to seek to gain water in very arid areas, the humid areas may yield much more water for the effort.

The "EFFORT" is to convey air though a "COLLECTION DEVICE".  This requires energy and hardware.  Hardware is expected to become less costly over time due to improved robotics.

Water has it's greater value where it is hard to satisfy the market for it.

In conditions like that, it probably makes sense to go to more humid areas to harvest both CO2 and Water from the air.
And the use of salt water may be undesirable.  Fresh water might be just fine.

So, canals of fresh water in Florida for instance, where you have a solar roof, over a canal of fresh water with slush under Shade Balls.  Ideally with a heat pump you can pull heat out of the canal and distribute it into a industrial heat need.

While under the Shade Balls the water should be near freezing or slushy, on the bottom of the canal the water might be at 39 degrees F. (3.89 degrees C).

So, the heat pump ideally may draw heat from water in the canal, and produce slush.  But being Florida, more likely it can then pull heat from the environment outside of the cold canal, and so more easily produce low grade industrial heat.

So, if multiple useful outputs can occur with such a setup then the capture and processing of CO2 into Hydrocarbons and perhaps Acetate, may be economically justified.

If so, then it can become profitable to both burn hydrocarbons where convenient and capture the CO2, elsewhere on Earth where that is convenient.

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Some more Robo-Blab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HJlthN … LACARWORLD
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Obviously time will test the assumptions we have now, as it always does.

Some things I can see, are for instance if you travel to another country, you might rent a robot or have your own robot that can speak multiple languages, so that you don't have to learn the local language.

The whole idea of Social Security going bankrupt is wrong headed, as rather first than creating more guaranteed incomes for the young, it probably makes more sense to allow people to retire earlier if they want to.

Another kind of a new job, I think could be an "On-Call" worker.  That is you would simply get paid for being available to give assistance to a sudden emerging need.  And then if you did take a call, you might get more pay for showing up, and then more pay for being of actual assistance.

And of course, the work week could be dropped from 40 hours a week to much less.

Yes, this kicks the can down the road, but it will be useful for the transition until robots do everything, if ever.

I guess you would be stretching the work out and reducing the productive requirements of a human.

However, a human might choose to build a house for instance and might have one or two robots to be of assistance.  That would be a form of self-employment.  But it would deflate the value of built houses and increase the cost of raw materials to build a house.

I expect that there could be self-employment options for other types of people if they owned one or two robots.  You would have to come up with something that was to be in demand.

I may live to see some of this.

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Well, the way I see it, we are in a situation of change and large potential.

There are reported methods for making liquid fuels from Methane.

Most people are of the opinion that solar energy will continue to go down. 

I think that if we have an eye on Tesla, we can think about their carbon wrapped motors: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/16/mo … ped-motor/

No guarantees that they can, but if they can make small actuators for robots such as Optimus, that would give more strength, and efficiency.
Some people think that within 5 years robots will be doing most of the work.

That would mean that solar hardware would drop sharply in price, I expect.

This is kind of down kdb512's road: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpiDNyMbStE
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But I also favor this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb3mrsUAaFc
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Now imagine water canals with solar power canopies, which shade the canals.   
Then cover the water, with Shade Balls.   Ideally high carbon Shade Balls.
Then as might be chosen circulate air though the enclosure.  Perhaps only at night, perhaps all the time.
Then two substances you would want out of the air are water vapor and CO2.
If needed on exiting, the air can be used to cool a heat pumps hot side.
The cool side of the heat pump will be to cool the water under the Shade Balls.
A little bit of agitation will keep the shade balls a bit wetted and cool, so that water can condense on them.
CO2 is also likely to be absorbed from the air into cold water.

A method like this may be suitable to extract the CO2 from the water: https://news.mit.edu/2023/carbon-dioxid … ation-0216  Quote:

I leave it open as to the kind of water in the canals.  Fresh, Seawater simulation, or strong brines.

It would not be absolutely impossible for watercraft to ride in such a canal.  It might need to be streamlined like a Voyager Canoe though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyageurs
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Of course these would not be shooting rapids, and I expect that rather than locks, mechanical-robotic lifts would be used.
The propulsion would likely be a tractor on electric rails.

It is possible that not only cold water would be put into the canals but slush, under the Shade Balls: https://undecidedmf.com/why-ice-might-b … f-heating/  Quote:

So, that might allow the storage of cold for condensation.  The slush might be made when it was convenient for the situation for air temperature, and energy availability.

In many cases some sort of living things could be grown in such canals.  Fresh cold water would be OK.  Cold Seawater Simulation would be OK, and Strong Brines may be OK if they are not too extreme.  But if they were as cold as Don Juan Pond, I would not expect them to be able to support life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
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I don't think it would ever pay to attempt to achieve that say in a temperate desert, but I am pretty sure that it would suck moisture out of almost the driest air.

But if you are using a salt water, then to get drinkable water you would need to do a distillation.

So, far I have indicated that the canal can be refrigerated with a heat pump, and the excess heat dissipated into discharge air.  But if done well, you could perhaps get low level industrial heat from this set of devices.

I am thinking that you could do it in a place like Florida with fresh water.

Deeper deserts might need salt water to encourage precipitation from the air, and to allow for lower temperatures.

I think in general life's limits of metabolism is down to about -20 Degrees C, which is really cold.  I don't know if that would pay off or not.  It would require a lot of salt.

And that is part of the point of this, you could take excess salt from the Salton Sea for example and put it into such canals.

Remembering again that hardware to make these things may be made by Robots that may cost $1.00/hour or less.

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Buring Coal will not be a problem as long as these canals keep sequestering Carbon from the air and making parts like Shade Balls to sequester the Carbon long term.

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It is nice to see you posting here Terraformer.

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kdb512, thanks for the attention.  Those are interesting alternatives.

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I have started to think that methods to move and store energy would be best done with Hydrocarbons.

Peter Zeihan says that in Iowa they can do base load wind energy now.  So that is what I would call a "Wind Energy Hot Spot".

Iceland is experimenting with drilling directly into Magma for energy.  While one dream is to make geothermal possible in most places, another could be to work with the super-hot spots and make Hydrocarbons with that energy.

And some places are vastly superior for solar power.  Not Germany, Not New York.  But for instance, the Atacama Desert.
So, your ideas for solar could possibly pay off there.

And then we already have the mechanisms to ship hydrocarbons around.  Pipelines, Trains, Ships, etc.

So, really a mirror image of the idea of trying to make solar or geothermal or wind everywhere.

And this then lets Germany and New York burn stuff for energy, if they can afford to buy it, because CO2 would be the feedstock for this system.

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A thing I have been thinking on today, is if floating cities in the clouds of Venus could in part be floated on chambers filled with Methane instead of Nitrogen or Air.

https://brainly.com/question/30357778
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Almost double the lift of air.  That could be helpful in the clouds of Venus.  An apparatus could float higher in the sky, I think.

That would not necessarily be wasted volume, because robots of various types could work inside such volumes.

And I would not worry too much about the Methane leaking into the atmosphere of Venus, as I think that Methane and tholins might modify the environment of Venus.  My hope is that they would block UV light and allow the Sulfuric Acid to decompose into Sulfur Oxides and water vapor.

Two energy sources for Venus in the clouds could be solar and differential wind.  Differential wind might work, if you have sort of a sea anchor that hangs down and experiences a different wind condition than a windmill.

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If this is real, and if water resources can be expanded, then population may be possible to disperse into dry land locations.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

I like the method they use to extract CO2 from the atmosphere.

I would like to see them find a way to make Acetate, and also Carbon, and Plastics.

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I have been more of a fan of habitats in the orbits of Venus than in the clouds of Venus, primarily due to the Sulfuric Acid.

I can think of notions to alter Venus, as far as its atmosphere goes, but the first thing is to make sure that the clouds do not contain life.  If they do, then I feel alteration of Venus can likely be considered to be a wrong thing to do.

I will consider it very likely that no life based on Silicon, exists on Venus.  If it did, then it should also be likely in the lava of Earth.  We have not encountered anything like that on Earth.

Things that could be altered for Venus could be the level of acid, and the height of the atmosphere.

If we could reduce the UV striking Sulfur Oxides and water vapor, then we could inhibit the production of Sulfuric Acid.  At the base of the cloud deck Sulfuric Acid decomposes into Sulfur Oxides and Water Vapor.

It might be possible to create an Ozone layer, but I have no certainty that that could be done.

Methane might be helpful; it is speculated that it had benefits for the Earth early in its history.
https://www.livescience.com/10668-thick … earth.html
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This might also explain how Mars worked a long time ago.

I suspect that it might be possible to create Methane at a rate, faster than the Venus environment could destroy it.  It is relatively a good lifting gas, particularly in the dominantly CO2 atmosphere of Venus.  Hydrogen and Helium are better lifting gasses, but Methane is what might do the good desired.

A hope would be that it could dwell in the higher atmosphere above the major amount of Sulfuric Acid and Sulfur Oxides, and water vapor.  Water Vapor would be a lifting gas in this environment also, but of course it will condense into snow and rain at higher altitudes.

If a haze of tholin would develop, in the high sky, it may in part block sunlight and may be part of reducing UV light.  I am not sure if this would warm or cool Venus.  The Methane might likely warm the planet.

But Sulfur compounds might cool it.  This article says it needs to be done correctly, or it may warm the planet rather than cool it: https://www.sciencealert.com/injecting- … rous-risks  Quote:

And I wonder if such an injection would interfere with the Methane and Tholin that may be desired.

Dust might be used as a cooling agent.

But specially made dust might warm a planet it seems: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scienti … -warm-mars
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So, some tools.  In my notion of ideal, if the planet is lifeless, then reducing the amount of Sulfuric Acid would be a good thing. 

Also, unlike most others who want to deal with Venus, I want to be able to extract resources from Venus.  This might be facilitated by an ideal atmospheric height.  Temperature changes could alter the atmospheric height.

The changes I have suggested in this post, might make the environment of Venus more compatible with machinery in floating habitats.

So, if I were an inhabitant of Venus, I might be divided on the idea of living in the clouds or in orbit.  In orbit you need additional protections for radiation.  If you have the materials, then that should not be an impossible problem to solve.

One thing I have wondered about is to create an orbiting magnetic field, that grazes the atmosphere of Venus.  My hope is that the magnetic field could capture ionized gasses into itself.
And then in further steps that that mass could be recovered to orbit.

But the process of capturing mass in that manner would drag the orbiting object down back into the atmosphere, so some kind of propulsion is needed to help lift the process to orbit.

But maybe Venus has a lot of promise as for hosting a very large population in the future.

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