New Mars Forums

A subsurface spin gravity habitat might be possible to work in some various ways.  Not guaranteed, rather I sense that it may be possible.

The ice caps of Mars are typically regarded as too cold for habitation.  But then people will go ahead and suppose that humans will want to inhabit other very cold places, such as Ceres, Callisto, and Titan for instance.

It occurs to me that if you want the opposite of a lifting gas, CO2 cooled to near its condensation point should be a fluid that is perhaps able to allow floatation of a hollow object with a greater buoyancy in side.  The Martian Ice Caps may provide that level of Cold for a reasonable price, I think.  And of course the atmosphere of Mars being dominantly CO2, it is very available.

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I have made some changes.  Again, I only think this might be close to possible, but in a test of reality may need more innovation:

In order to have the desired Helium, it may be necessary to have fusion power plants.  But such power plants would also be valuable for the power they would produce, not just the potential of Helium.

The Helium Oxygen mix would be breathable in an emergency, and would also be tolerated by robots.  And of course where I have suggested, a cold CO2 gas for the "Rotor" to float in, the Helium would make the "Rotor" more buoyant.

I will admit that if the floatation CO2 gas is very cold, and the "Rotor" not too cold, then some type of lightweight insulation will be desired.

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So, we would not want the flotation gas to get cold enough to solidify from the gas phase:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide
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So, the polar ice caps might supply something not quite that cold, I would hope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

The North Ice Cap is said to be about 2km thick, the South Ice Cap is said to be about 3km thick.

As far as ice column pressure this should be 1/3 that of the Earth, for similar thicknesses.

Could we drill all the way down to the base of the ice, and have a cylinder?  Could we have a substance with enough compressive strength to hold the ice from squeezing the hole shut?
(North=1.2427423845 miles), (South=1.8641135767 miles)

If one of these could be built in a way that works, then it should be possible to make many, many of them and to have passages to join them together.

The lids on theses could be domes covered in a synthetic pykrete, with enough weight to hold in the internal CO2 air pressure.

Enough for now.

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A video about Rocket Lab and Neutron, as it happens: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … cb0c9c120f
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So, I also think that they have some potential going into the future.

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I am reading of impressive progress on the SpaceX Stainless Steel Structure methods, but I am also developing an interest in the Rocket Lab Carbon build method.

I would not for any reason argue to pick one and put down the other.  These together could go a long way towards space capabilities.

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d- … er-233751/  Quote:

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The Stainless Steel, has its advantages, but I would be very interested in Carbon build for Lunar activities.

So, I am thinking that for a Lunar Lander, these might have merit.  A crash or onetime use to land on the Moon would leave behind useful materials like Carbon to be recycled on the Moon.

It might even be worthwhile to lift them to orbit using Starship.

I don't have the specs for these things so I cannot be certain, but I would guess you could build landers with 1, 3, 5 or maybe more of these 2nd stage units incorporated.  A 2nd Stage unit in a centered position, might be gimbaled in order to assist in landing capabilities.

Such landers might be supported by a Starship in orbit of the Moon.  Perhaps refilled in Lunar Orbits or not.  Maybe the landers would see a one time landing of some hardware or consumables.

Just a capability that may be of use.

And then perhaps as a joint project perhaps SpaceX and Rocket Lab could make a much larger version of the 2nd Stage, that could ride up on the Superheavy, and perhaps that Superheavy might be modified to have the Hungry Hippo method of Fairings, like Rocket Lab's Neutron.

Some rather interesting landers for the Moon might be fabricated from that setup, I think.

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I guess I am doing wish lists.  Things I might hope could appear.

I think that SpaceX and Rocket Lab could collaborate on some things, a frenemies more or less.

In the previous post I suggested reuse of Neutron 2nd Stages.

There is something, that I think that SpaceX might eventually do, if they have large enough sea platforms.  But I think that Rocket Lab, using Neutron 1st stage, might do it much sooner and work out the kinks.

Rocket Lab now intends to catch Neutron 1st stage on barges.  It has been my notion that rather than bringing the barge back in the thing to do would be to refill the Neutron 1st stage and fly it retrograde back to the original launch site.  So, the barge it landed on would need means to refill the Neutron 1st stage.  Methane and Oxygen, I believe.

The Neutron 1st stage retains it's "Hungry Hippo Fairings", so it would be streamlined to make that flight, but without a payload, it would not need a full refilling to do it.

I have to wonder if eventually Starship Superheavy could have a version that would have "Hungry Hippo Fairings" as well, and that a Carbon Starship could be fitted inside, as a 2nd stage.  It would not be intended for atmospheric entry, but might work very well for the Moon, and maybe asteroids.

Superheavy, being Stainless Steel, apparently does not need much for heat shielding.  And making a Carbon type Starship to send to orbit and not to land could have benefits.

Obviously, it would have less inertia.

It is worth mentioning that Carbon is a substance that will work with the Neumann Drive, if that ever gets sized up.

So, technically a Starship converted to a sort of Neutron Ship method, might be able to feed an electric rocket propulsion device.  I am guessing that Carbon might be easier to convert to propellants for a Neumann Drive than  would be Stainless Steel.

And I am not putting either company down.  Each has come up with impressive technology that I fell might work together in some cases, to produce a significant benefit.

If it were to be air braked to Earth Orbit a "Overshield" of Lunar Materials might protect it.  Otherwise the Carbon being of less inertia than Stainless Steel the inertia will be less.  Indeed, if Neumann Drive were sized up, then such Carbon Ships could be brought back to Lower Earth Orbits by using electric rocket drive.  And then to refill from a depot and perhaps lift significant cargo to a higher orbit or to the Moon.

This is "Food for Thought", I feel.  If Carbon can be used for propulsion then the ships could eventually after a full service life end up being salvaged to make propellants for other Carbon Ships.

Of course the Raptors and other parts could be recycled.

Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/

A Carbon Starship of the type I suggest would not have heat shield, or Flaps or Motors, which should drop it's price.

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The idea that humans are Carnivore, is surprising.   The medical community does not prescribe that today.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

The idea that brain size has become smaller due to farming is something to ponder.  This could suggest that humans have been experiencing brain starvation since the end of the ice ages.

I have not viewed this one yet:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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If there is truth in this we may want to find a way to get the nutrition of animals, without having to kill animals.  I would like to get away from killing animals, but am not against eating meat.

There could be a pathway in lab grown meat, but maybe somehow some form of Precision Fermentation could give us food without the problems that come from plants.

I am still confused as to why the meat eating humans were healthier and had bigger brains than the agricultural humans.

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A very unproven theory from me is that plants may have some methods to get nutrients from animals.

A fairly direct way would be for a tree to take a form that birds might like to perch in.  My notion is that bird droppings would be useful to some trees.  So, a stationary or "Planted", life form would solicit assistance from an animated life form such as a bird, or perhaps a bat.  The distribution of seeds from fruits and such also could figure into this.

We are familiar with carnivorous plants as they are so unusual, but animals also distribute nutrients "Upstream" though Feces and Urine.  In the case of the birds, those are combined.  Usually, nutrients wash downstream.  But of course, the wind as well could carry some nutrients upstream.

It is less clear to me how things work with land Herbivores and Carnivores, as relates to land plants.

So, plants are ambivalent about animals perhaps.  The want to discourage being eaten for the most part, but fruits and flowers are attractants, for pollination, seed distribution, and possibly receiving Urine and Feces.

Another distribution of nutrients could be from dead things, blood, and perhaps vomit.  But my speculation is hesitant on how that would be encouraged by plants.  Perhaps in some cases perhaps not.

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I will work on this later.  Thanks British! https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … r-AA1DaZo3  Quote:

Obviously this is going to be useful in the canals that I have suggested. 

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I think that this might involve solar panels being more of a structural material themselves.

There is no telling how much natural light is needed to signal plants to grow appropriately.

I am hoping for something like 5% maybe.  So, although the dome or continuing archway, might be a little bit like a greenhouse, it would be more of a solar power collector.

We can hope that plants will be bioengineered, to work more with Acetate as their energy source.

Of course, if desired, some artificial lighting could also be included instead of windows, so that the plants can be convinced that the season is different than what it is.  Again, you might hope that this would be a tiny minority of the energy needed by the plants.

And then this may lead to a question of if it is good to have classical greenhouses on Mars, or to do some alternative such as suggested in this post.

Acetate is supposed to be more efficient than photosynthesis.  But plants are not yet adapted as well as needed to use Acetate.

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Returning for a bit, I am wondering about solar power orientations.  We have somewhat horizontal to face the sun, we have vertical, and we have sun following.

Here are some simple representations:

As it happens the Dome or Arch is actually like the Bifacial, but with a hollow inside.  It is also like the sun orientation as, part of it is pointed to the sun as well.

This may be like a combination of types and may round out the power production more around the day.  Bifacials are better in Morning and Afternoon.  Semi-horizontal are best at noon time, I believe.  Also, some orientations may be better for light bouncing off of clouds on a cloudy day.

If solar panels were put on all surfaces of a Dome or Arch, then the North side, in the North Hemisphere, would only get light bounced off the clouds or the ground.  The exception would be, if you involved heliostats to purposely convey more photons to an area of a Dome or Arch.

Solar panels at this time provide some protection for animals, more in the case of non-vertical ones.  They all, may reduce evaporation from the ground.

But a Dome or Arch, may do similar but even better.  You could use such as animal shelters or perhaps grow things inside.  I have suggested Precision Fermentation before, but if it becomes practical to grow plants in the dark with Acetate, then this also might be tried.  The Dome or Arch may extend the growing season.

But you could have some windows, or transparent solar panels to allow a little light to get in.  That could be important for many plants, to get their seasonal signals from.

But of course such a structure may be vulnerable to burrowing animals on Earth at least.

The idea that a roofed over volume can be incorporated into a solar power system has some value, we already do it with houses.  But the variable orientations of the panels, would reduce the energy storage needs, I expect.

Depending on cost of solar equipment, you might have 2, 3, 5 times as much solar panels as you need for peak power.  That would be if you go along with Tony Seba's "Superpower" notions.

If you could use excess Superpower to make Acetate, then that would be one route to take.

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Just to complete the notions a bit more.

I already said that this scheme might be done with two full sized Starships.

One would be converted in route to Mars, the other would not be.

I think that once a ship was converted to inhabit its propellant tanks, it would be very hard to return it to its original character.   Even so, if such a Starship did have the Header Tanks, it might be able to land on Mars, and I think then stay there.

Since SpaceX and Elon Musk, don't seem interested in Starboat, it may be that two Starships flying in linked pairs, may be useful.

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Here is some more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWuGb_R … eanUpdates
I know that there is a great discomfort here with the seeming Anti-British tilt in this material.

I will say from the start that America is more "Native" to North America, than Canada or the British, or the French.
As become native to North America, we are not just Latin or African or South Germanic (English), in nature.  We are also Slovick, East Asian/ Pseudo Siberian, and North Germanic in nature.

So, in my opinion we are more capable of operating in all the worlds, but allergic to Old World methods.

The British have been useful to us, as to better handle the things that we are more allergic to.  But London, cannot operate well in Slovick, East Asian/Pseudo Siberian, and North Germanic worlds.  London only wants to clash, with these people many of us here in America are the result of genetic and cultural cross breeding.

The idea of an upper class that is worthy to impose eugenics, on a presumed lower class(s), is barely tolerated by us, and less so now.  The idea that the Dominant Man is worthy to exterminate and replace the Capable Man, is offensive.

And we know that we can never be of the ruling class of the Dominant Man, except criminal types who are in our country, and have not evolved to be American or not enough.

At this time at least, it is apparent that the deletion of "Inferior" genes, can do little to improve the capabilities of our people.

But it is apparent that whoever is running Britan and Europe, has little regard for the existence of a Free Capable People.  Rather, it seems they are on a backsliding path towards the old world, which much of the commonwealth is embedded in.

So, no surprise that these two pathways are incompatible.  And we cannot be murdered into compliance with the wishes of the Zombie peoples of the world.

I think that most of you should not say anything in agreement with me here as, I don't want you to get into trouble and I cannot protect you.

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I wanted to leave you alone during your vacation.

Thinking about bulk raw materials on Mars.

I would mention the enormous amount of clay that apparently is on Mars.

If brine from a well could be accessed, here is another interesting possibility: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/s … r-AA1D0FE9  Quote:

And then there is sandstone, such as Mt. Sharp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sharp

And things like Asphalt, Ice, Pykrete, and even water.

And then of course Lava Tubes.

So, bulk materials, some of which might be useful in your construction plans.

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