New Mars Forums

I did not know these things about the Alberta Oil Sands: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

That's not going to run out for some time, it seems.

Unless someone kills it.

And thanks from one American.

Ending Pending

So, technically the UK can get Oil from both the USA and Canada, but Quebec will not let it though, so, it has to go through the USA.  That might be a deeper civilizational level game.  Bad Froggies! Or is it Thanks! Froggies?

A very strange world.

Ending Pending

So, when we get to the point that humanoid robots in factories reproduce themselves at a high rate, then there would be more such factories, and so on.

Robots will either be the death of us or perhaps the life of us.   We know that our patterns will not exist forever in any case.  We might as well embrace it and find out if it is how we live or die.

Given matter and energy, then artificial labor may have no limits that we recognize at this time.

So, yes freighters crewed by robots, moving stuff around the solar system?  Why not?  How much?  Lots I expect.

Now then what about Mars?  Would you like to hide in a hole on Mars or fly though the solar system?  You could do both and even more.

Probably the real Mars will eventually be in orbit of Mars.  Easier to make synthetic gravity and also more connected to distant places in the solar system.  But you could go down to Mars from time to time as it pleased you.  Either in the flesh, or with a humanoid robot as a Avatar representative of you.

80 billion robots?  How about 80 trillion?

Where are the limits?

Ending Pending

I like the concepts in https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA

But rather than a road around the equator, I might prefer one that extends from the Equator to the poles.  Perhaps it would also encircle the pole, probably the south one.

If significant water exists at the poles with a little CO2, and I might hope, some Argon, things like Sulfur, and maybe Sodium may have settled out into the regolith at medium latitudes.  Probably the heat of high noon will determine where a substance will settle out if it evaporates.

To start with though, I would like to see a base at low latitude, and one for polar ice, if it exists.

But before the formal roads are built, I wonder if we could get some kind of rockets that could do jumps between the bases.  I would look at leftovers to start with.
Expended 2nd Stages:
-Falcon 9 (RP-1 and Oxygen)
-Terran-R (Methane and Oxygen)
-Neutron (Methane and Oxygen)

And the reusable 2nd stage of Stoke Space:
NOVA (Hydrogen and Oxygen)

They each have points.  Even if Falcon 9 2nd stage has Cabon issues, the fuel would likely be the easiest to store in a space environment.

NOVA, is already designed for reuse, but of course Hydrogen fuel is a fussy baby.

Terran-R and Neutron, are both compatible with the fuel of Starship.

I want to have another look at Rotavators.  Can we drop Ping-Pong Balls onto the Moon in places and have them survive the impact?  If so then that will lift the Skyhook up.  But if we find a way we may be able to lift things off of the Moon using that lift generated by dropping Ping Pong Balls.

I am not the first to think of Skyhooks on the Moon.  Most of you will know Skyhooks, but here is a refresher: https://isaacarthur.net/video/upward-bound-skyhooks/

Some people have suggested that a Skyhook could hook a load on the surface of the Moon and lift it up.  I am being more conservative.  I want a Spacecraft to fly up the skyhook and hook onto it and then I want to release a bunch of Ping Pong Balls.

But we have limited amounts of Ping Pong Balls.  But if we had some Plastic factories on Ceres, we might bring the materials to make Ping Pong Balls to an orbit of the Moon.  Unless you have a massive amount of almost free artificial labor, then that is just too fantastic and expensive to even consider.  But we are on the edge of another world, it seems.

If we are shipping in enormous amounts of Ping Pong Balls, to the Moon, we will make it rather habitable, as the organic needs will be rather satisfied.

If we then lift Iron and Aluminum to Lunar orbit then we can use them in Magdrive or Neumann Drive.  If we bring Silicon up then we can use it in Neumann Drive.

We can get those substances at Ceres as well and much more.  While it is true that the sunlight is dim at Ceres, relative to our Moon, I have already described that at Ceres mirrors of valuable metals could be given to a spacecraft to go back to our Earth<>Moon subsystem.

In addition it would be very easy to fill a Starship in orbit of Ceres, to give the craft a boost into the inner system burning chemicals.

I know that some people will think nuclear booster, but I recall Dr. Zubrin saying that what you do with nuclear power is cook up chemicals for a chemical rocket.

Of course all of this will depend on massive amounts of robot labor, but we may get just that.

So if you are lifting Moon materials up to Lunar orbit, and dropping enough Ping Pong Balls, you might have an equilibrium as the lifting will take orbital energy from the skyhook but the dropping of Ping Pong Balls will add orbital energy to the skyhook.

But it is possible that electron beams may be suitable to push the skyhook up so it can lift more Lunar Mass.

This concept is for interstellar probes, but could it be adapted to push a skyhook with beams of electrons from the Moon?  https://phys.org/news/2025-01-relativis … alpha.html
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I thought an electron beam would be bent by the magnetics of the solar wind, but apparently they think they can project an electron beam quite far.

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So, anyway maybe that is adaptive to my desires, maybe not.

Ceres and other icy objects will be able to give plastics and water, and Paraffin, which can be used as radiation shielding as it happens.

Now if the Solar system had 80 billion space adapted humanoid robots, could you imagine that we could create a sub-economy linking a world like Ceres with our Moon?

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Well, I guess I will put the content of the three prior posts largely on the shelf for now.

In line with this topic, I am currently interested in the possible effects in the future, where Artificial Labor may become available on the Moon.  Artificial Labor = AI + Robots, including humanoid.

So, then a trade path between Earth and the Moon could be considered.  I presume that Starship can be the first instance of a method of trade path.  But as I have said before, two separate Starship methods might be used.  One for the 1)Earth<>LEO and 2)Moon<> Low Lunar Orbit.  To link the two then some sort of more efficient propulsion method could be desired.

The three methods I can think of at this time would be Solar-Electric-Argon, Magdrive, and Neumann Drive.
None of these are sized up enough at this time to handle the magnitude of the desired path of linking the two Starship methods.  The closest hope for that would be "Jetson".  However Jetson is just in a concept stage, I think.  I am also going to guess that they will not set it up to use Argon.  https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … power.html

So, electric propulsion has a long way to go to be suitable for cargo transfers #1<>#2.

A) The British have Magdrive, I seems.  (A new concept, I don't know how far it has gone).
B) The Australians have Neumann Drive, (Practically a newborn thing for small applications at this time).

Both of these however use solid propellants, which is very different, and might have great potential with Lunar Materials.

A) https://www.ukspace.org/sme-member/magdrive/
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A) https://magdrive.space/
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As I understand it Magdrive will be able to use Aluminum, Iron, or Copper.

B) https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/
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Neumann Drive has had some testing on a small scale in space.  It will use most metals, Carbon, and Silicon as propellants.

So, of course I think that Aluminum, Iron, and Silicon should be available from the Moon and Earth.

And of course, another premium material that might come from the Moon would be Oxygen.

Transfers of bulk materials between worlds orbits, such as Earth and Moon could be possible using some sort of electric propulsion devices.

A Starship dedicated to Moon service could get its Oxygen from the Moon and has a tank large enough that it could carry extra Oxygen to Lunar Orbit.  But in it's cargo it could carry Iron, Aluminum, and Silicon for propulsive needs also.

Alternately it might carry Iron Oxide.  Or a different Oxide.  Iron Oxide could be carried in containers made on the Moon of metal, and loaded into a Starship.  This would still allow a Oxygen tank to be filled completely with Oxygen if desired.

At Lunar Orbit, Methane could be gifted to the Starship, enough to land and ascend again.

Carbon from Earth, along with Hydrogen bearing materials could be delivered to Lunar orbit to make Methane and other things.  But Methane might be transported as it is in a tank.

A Starship landing might bear hardware as cargo as Downmass.  However, it might bear plastic items as well.
https://pongplace.com/guides/ping-pong-balls-made-of/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit … ne_styrene
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So, it has everything the Moon lacks.  Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen.  And I bet it could be used in a 3D printer as raw material.

So, landing at a proper time in the Lunar Day/Night cycle, the balls might have been equilibrated to a best temperature by rotating in the sunshine and shadow in orbit.

I imagine the balls being in a big sack or fish net type thing and hanging on the sides of a Starship.

The intention is to release them at an appropriate altitude above the Lunar surface, just prior to landing.  It is possible that the ship will spin a little prior to release, to make them fly away from the ship before it lands.

The landing legs of the ship could be of Carbon and maybe a little plastic as well.

The ship filling up with propellants of various kinds, would launch and leave behind it's landing legs assembly.  It would get a new assembly for each landing.

It is possible that Methane for a ships assent could be manufactured from the Ping Pong Balls, but I think maybe fueling in its entirety in Lunar Orbit may be the best way.

Plastic items exposed to the Lunar environment are likely to deteriorate, so an early retrieval and relocation to storage would be desired.

The Balls could be processed to make Water, extract Nitrogen, and provide Carbon related materials for Lunar processes.

So, my hope is that the Moon settlement could provide so much in the way of Oxygen, Iron, Aluminum, and Silicon as propellants, that it would be well worth it.

Particularly if the propellants could support methods to access Mars, Phobos, Deimos, and the Asteroids for Metals desired on Earth.

Also of course some of those materials could be used to build orbital structures of use.

Having Carbon on the Moon, would provide CO2 as a coolant, so then it might be possible to implement data centers on the Moon which may have economic value to the Earth.

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/n … a-centers/
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So, it may become possible to generate wealth from the process sufficient to justify such a cargo's method(s).

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Other nations have gifts to offer all of us: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1Elt2y
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So, I am guessing that might be helpful on the Moon as well.

It is not impossible that Lunar power will be a great asset on the Moon, and possibly to export from the Moon.

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No, I take it as a great compliment that you would bother to offer your knowledge to me.

And yes, I am begging a lot of "Wish-ware" here and might easily fail on true "Hardware".

But I will chase the rabbit further.  It is one of the things I like, to try on rare occasions it might pay off.

Failure is almost guaranteed but not quite for sure.

The propulsion method I am imagining would primarily be a Solar-Electric-Argon propulsion.  So, it would not be of any strong force.  Launch from a planet or moon of any significant size.

So, the quantity of water split would be at a small rate, and I guess I would go towards some kind of a very small, pulsed engine for the reasons you have given.

The reason for Paraffin Wax, and Water, are that they are easily stored and transported relative to things like Hydrogen, Methane, and Oxygen.  Also, they are more compatible with a human habitation location, to provide radiation protection.

The Paraffin and Water could come from the Earth, in which case, a Starship carrying them up to orbit is less of a danger than a Starship loaded with extra Methane and Oxygen.

I have hopes that these two substances can be provided from Mars, and the Asteroid Belt, later on, and they might be carried long term to a desired location with minimum care such as concern for boil off.

In the case of a uncrewed version transporting materials to a location, if it is a Solar-Electric-Argon device, it can tank up from Earth and Mars, maybe the Moon, but if in the Asteroid Belt is not likely to procure Argon.  It could get Argon to go out to the Asteroid Belt, perhaps from Mars, but would need another propulsion method to come back.  I am making an attempt at that with Paraffin and Water.

A bit of "Wish-Wear" could be chemical burn "Nano-Engines".  (Nano, sounds magic).  Small engines.  And perhaps pulsed.  As you have pointed out some sort of reservoir is needed, and the engines cannot run continual.  But if there are small reservoirs for Hydrogen and Oxygen and the disliked Parafin, these might fill and make possible the pulse method.

We needed electric for the Argon and may use it for our "Wish-Wear", at least in my imagination.  Granted the sunlight is very dim at say the 3 AU from the sun, but mirrors can be very thin, and might be largely composed of metals wanted in the inner solar system.  As I have said I would expect to get the Paraffin and Water from an Asteroid source, and so the Mirrors might be largely of export metals.

I have previously mentioned larger scale Hydro Lox method, but of course that would be very costly in dry mass, parts costs, and the need for reservoirs of significant size, perhaps likely Cryogenic in nature.  Big costs.  But that would be helpful to do a "Oberth" maneuver around a planet for a momentum assist.

But I suppose I might have rather asked you, about using Paraffin, Hydrogen, and Oxygen.  If there is a very small engine, a "Micro" engine, and it is pulsed, I suppose that there is an advantage with dissipating heat, as combustion is periodic and not continual.

My logic for burning the Paraffin, is because it is there, as a commodity, or radiation protection.  In a pinch it could be burned.  It has more weight than Hydrogen, I believe, so, is a greater weight thrown backwards to produce a reaction to propel a ship.

Next then since I have Hydrogen I need some "Wish-Wear" to allow me to push the Hydrogen into the relatively dense plume which has limited ability to expand.  Hydrogen however has greater ability to expand, so I hope to get some additional propulsion from that, as I hope that the Hydrogen embedded between the molecules of CO2 and H20 and maybe some other things will be pushed harder by the Hydrogen expansion.

The Hydrogen has greater expansion capability but the CO2 and H20 have greater mass.

And as further "Wish-Wear" perhaps I will have a magical heater that can preheat the Hydrogen prior to injection so that it does not cool the CO2 and H20 plume.  This device would likely be electric, and from what you have said, over time the magic has to include immunity from the harm of embrittlement.

Since I am doing so much "Wish-Wear", I invoke electric motors to turn the turbines my magic engine.  Rocket Lab does that with their electron rocket I believe.

Thank you in advance for your patience GW.

I must also add that Magdrive and Neumann Drive might provide alternate propellant methods such as metals, and Carbon and Silicon.  This might be practical for departing the Asteroid Belt without a refill of Argon.

If you must be brutal go ahead, I am not going to lose a job for it.  I am long retired.  It is just attempts to keep using the mind.  Like going to the gym.

Ending Pending

I have some more to add to the previous post.

For one thing, I have given more thought about Paraffin Wax and Water in space.  Obviouslly both useful in many ways, and for radiation protection as one thing.

I am thinking about a "Just In Time Burn Method", involving splitting water, then burning Paraffin in the Oxygen as a rocket thruster, but then adding the Hydrogen into the rocket engine after the Paraffin burn.  Obviously, you are not going to get much of the Hydrogen burned, but that could be good, as Hydrogen has such a nature of expansion with heat.  I believe this as where running water propellant in a thermal nuclear might give you a value of 1.0 as result, Hydrogen is said to be able to give you a 2.0 for the same mass.  But to use Hydrogen propellant in a nuclear thermal, you need a large tank with dry mass, and you have to worry about boil off problems.

I imagine this to be an alternate thrust method for an electric rocket.  Our government is sponsoring the building of "Jetson" which will be nuclear electric.  But I don't expect that the government will be passing out nuclear reactors like candy in space to any Tom, Dick, or Harry.  Especially not to Dick.

So, let's say you would have an Argon-Electric Solar Propulsion System, but could also have on board a Paraffin & Water method, using cracking of water with electrolysis.  One problem with Argon-Electric is the Van Allen Belts, so, having a payload of Paraffin and water could protect people and things, and then become a propellant as well.

However, I am more interested in robots.  As I see it, it is wonderful, that Lunar Starship could be able to land on the Moon and maybe even return to an Earth orbit.

However, what if Starship only goes to LEO, and lifts Argon, Paraffin, and water to orbit.  If you had a Lunar Transit Tug, it could have on board three types of thrust.
1) Argon-Electric
2) Just in time, ((Oxygen + Paraffin) + Hydrogen)
3) Some small tankages to store a bit of Oxygen and Hydrogen to make sudden small thrusts as needed.  Maybe not liquid.

Then this device serves to Tug stuff between LEO and Low Lunar Orbit.

Then your Lunar Starship only flies up and down on the Moon.  Partially refilled with Oxygen from the Moon but with Fuels in Low Lunar Orbit.

I will make note that Paraffin, is a substance you might toss out of a ship in the final stages of landing to reduce thrust needed to land, and the strength of the landing legs.

You even can do that with Ice but likely would only do so in a Lunar cold shadow.  (Polar or nighttime).

And of course, I have already named Carbon as a substance that can be tossed out as well, prior to landing.

And we can add Plastics and "Edible Structure" to that list.

So, I think that these methods of achieving better economy will be more prudent to perfect than a Mass Driver will be.

But of course if a Mass Driver can be then eventually it should be made.

Ending Pending

As for bases, I think that Equator, Temperate, and Polar latitudes could be considered.  It would be nice to be able to travel between them, either with rocket method or rovers.

We know from the ISS that water can be tightly recycled, but it would be nice to be able to access polar water and CO2 in addition to being able to import chemicals to the Moon.

Maybe there is even Argon to be had on the Moon.  I just don't understand why it would not be in the polar craters.
Argon??? https://www.psi.edu/blog/project/cold-t … d-regions/

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I would like to see our people enabled to go Into the Vastness:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlG-QOL … Gunn-Topic  Quote:

Ending Pending

And then finally what is the eventual potential of Magdrive, and Neumann Drive?

Propellants for them will be massively available from the Moon.

Ending Pending

And we have the potential of chemical rocket burns with unusual chemical methods using Lunar materials.

Ending Pending

I had a look at this material yesterday in another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 51#p231451  Post #30.

Tony Seba, has notions about the future of technology for Earth.  He is not so interested in space, but I am.

I feel that space needs updating.  We seem to be locked into notions from the last Century.  I was there, so I understand that to be true.  Ideas like Mass Drivers for the Moon, and getting water from the Lunar poles to support Apollo type mission architectures.

The factors mentioned by Tony Seba, might be applied to some extent to the Moon.

Mass Drivers presumes a 60's and 70's type of thinking.  No such thing as a humanoid robot, so labor on the surface of the Moon to be extremely expensive, being humans encumbered in space suits.

But I am now thinking of large sections of spaceships, being constructed on the surface of the Moon and then to be lifted to orbit by some means.  That would most likely involve chemical rockets to get to a very low orbit and then perhaps electric rockets to get the orbits up higher.  Some sort of tether method might also be involved to pluck a device from a very low Lunar orbit, maybe even from a sub-orbital path.  The tether would offer momentum exchange between mass of the tether and an electric rocket system, and the payload launched into a very wobbly orbit.  Such a tether might not have to be extremely long.

The Moon having lots of mass could be manipulated to offer necessary life support to robots of various kinds.  Even telepresence from the Earth, or from humans on the Moon might work rather well to assist the manipulation of robots on the Moon.

So the steps might be:
1) Construct a ship section.
2) Lift the ship section to a very low orbit.
3) Snatch that section to a higher orbit.
4) Assemble sections into a "Semi-Cycler".

There are some idea around about using Lunar materials to make propellants for chemical rockets to lift the ship sections to a low orbit.

These sections now only have "Dry Mass".  When assembled they might go to a location where they could take on "Wet Mass".  The means of propulsion might be Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

I suppose the Moons polar areas might provide water and CO2, which could be an option.  But these "Dry Ships" would be occupied by robots, not humans.  If they by some means could travel to LEO, or to Mars, then they might have means to collect "Wet Mass".

So, from my point of view, this might be a better path than trying to use a mass driver to push loads of Lunar materials into an orbit like L5, and then trying to process the materials in microgravity.  In both cases, you have to manipulate materials, and collect and use energy.

If we could learn how to construct and loft "Dry Ships" from the Moon, and they then were occupied by robots, these ships could go to various locations to get "Wet Mass".  In the case of LEO and Mars they could also take on Argon for electric propulsion.

Probably this could start by building them out of modified Starships from Earth itself and then collecting the "Wet Mass" from Earth.

But next I would like to consider "Dry Mass" construction on the near side of the Moon near the equator.  Then to travel to LEO for "Wet Mass", and alternately getting "Wet Mass" from the Moons poles.

Later it may be possible that "Semi-Cyclers" could travel to Mars, to collect "Wet Mass".

And even later perhaps out to the outer Asteroid Belt for the "Wet Mass".

Various electric propulsion systems can use various substances for the means of travel.  Also I think that these devices could use gravitational boosts to get where they could collect "Wet Mass".

My definition of "Wet Mass" includes, Water, Methane, Paraffin Wax, and Argon at least.

I like Paraffin Wax a lot as I feel that a "Semi-Cycler could loan them to a Starship in transit, as radiation protection.  But Paraffin Wax could also be used as a fuel, during an Oberth boost in passage around a planet for a gravitational boost.  Here is an example: https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/paraf … or-tested/
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A "Semi-Cycler" could have Paraffin Wax objects, and bags or tanks of water.  Along with some other chemicals such as Carbon and a bit of Nitrogen and nutrients for microbes.

For an Oberth burn, water might be spilt into Hydrogen and Oxygen.  The Hydrogen could be fed to microbes along with Carbon and other nutrients, to make food.  The Oxygen would be stored in a tank for the Oberth burn.

The ship having the ability to split water could also have a just in time method of thrust, where the Hydrogen and Oxygen were burned as soon as created.

So, rather flexible, but I would also want some form of electric propulsion as well.

Once these "Semi-Cyclers" were fully built with "Dry Mass" and "Wet Mass", they could go into service to assist Starships transiting to and maybe from Mars.

(Eventually other worlds).

A "Semi-Cycler" being properly positioned into a useful orbit could be overtaken by a "Starship(s)".  Then resources such as Paraffin Wax objects and bags of water could be moved from the "Semi-Cycler" into the Starship as radiation protection for the transit to Mars.

A "Semi-Cycler" might also be able to feed the Starship(s) with food, and might offer redundancy in life support.  If the Starships propulsion or life support failed, then the "Semi-Cycler" might offer, methods of survival and recovery.

Otherwise with a successful transit, the Paraffin, and water bags could be returned for reuse into the Semi-Cycler.
The Semi-Cycler may take a different path than the ship after that or might follow along to the same destination, such as a Mars orbit for resupply.

So, I do not hate Mass Drivers, but I would like to investigate this alternate path.

Ending Pending

Electric propulsions may be too slow to accelerate and decelerate for direct use with humans, but the supporting role of a Semi-Cycler might use it very well.

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(th) requested that I attempt a summary of the previous posts video.  Here is his request: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 41#p231441

I have only watched it once and did not pick up everything.  I will watch it again and see if I can get more details.

However, I can render a preliminary summary.  Advancements in technology may allow manipulation of materials in time to create crafted hardware at reduced prices to harvest energy at a lowered cost.

This will involve:
1) Generalized Labor from Humanoid and other robots.
2) Lowered cost of labor will allow for lower cost hardware.
3) Lowered cost hardware may make the concept of "Superpower" justified.
4) Improved AI will make #1 in this list more useful as to have an actual brain.

In the case of solar energy, "Superpower" would be because the cost of hardware will be so low that it will be justified to have so much in the way of solar panel quantity that on the worst day of the year, you would still have enough energy.  The "Superpower" then is exhibited the most strongly on your best day of the year.

The utility of "Superpower" is desired, so that there needs to be discovered/created productive method that could use that excess and "Low Cost" power, even if it is intermittent.

My view is that Tony Seba maybe is a little towards having "Elon Time", but I think eventually this will be likely to happen.

Here is the video again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHdUMDV … ithHerbert
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I will try to take notes.

Interesting terms:
-Stellar Energy
-Ignition Points
-Artificial Labor = Robots + AI
-Extractive vs. Stellar

Extractive @ 9.44 (Old)
Stellar @ 16.30 (New)

Overbuilding @ 20.55

Example: Amazon at Christmas (Highest Demand) and then the rest of the year.

Overbuilding for Stellar Energy apparently is the opposite of making very large storage, so that you can even out the energy over a time period.  Overbuilding of solar panels, for instance, reduces the amount of energy storage you need.

But then that system will have "Superpower", at times that are not the worst days of winter for instance.

Superpower might be 3, 4, 5 times the worst-case energy harvesting.  @ 24.10

So, you design your solar system for the worst week of the year and then get the superpower the rest of the year.
(This presumes that the cost of solar, wind, and batteries will continue to go down to a point that this could be afforded)

26.04 Ignition, Entropy, negative Entropy Moving from Entropy system to Negative Entropy system.

@ 29.00 Stellar Transportation System.  Transportation 10-20 times cheaper than now.

@ 32.22, battery recycle, but also improving energy density in batteries.  System can heal itself and produce more from what it has.

@34.29 Artificial Labor (Robots +AI)  Improving much faster at this time than Moore's law.

@ 38.29 AI Ignition Point (System becomes self-sustaining and self-improving)

Eventual Artificial Labor costs $1.00/hour $0.10/hour or eventually less.

@ 44.00 Cern becomes more involved in the conversation.

Cern asks Tony Seba Questions.  I may review this part next:
Ending Pending

@ 52.00 Space

@ 56.27 we will only need 1% of the land, and so perhaps vast areas will be turned back to nature.

@ 57.18 Precision Fermentation

@ 1.02.14 Human reproduction

@ 1.08.35 Economic translation which will have troubles.  Inflation of some things.  Deflation of others.  Job losses.

@ 1.11.29 Economic Hallucinations.

@ 1.13.54 UBI? NO but "Granting Stellar Output Rights"

@ about 1.18.00 "Stellar Core needs to be open source, like internet or highway system"

@ 1.20.18 National debt and deflation, a problem

@ about 1.24.31 Urgent! to build "Stellar Energy System" before economic breakdown.

@ 1.30.50  What are the structures you need for Stellar rather than Extractive?

@ 1.34.37  These changes in the next 10 to 20 years it is said.

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This is of some interest to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHdUMDV … ithHerbert
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Regarding the two prior posts, it has occurred to me that a one-time Starship would not need a reusable heat shield so just the under shield might do, without the tiles, and then perhaps a bit more ablative materials for the hot spots.

Then we can hope that the motors and flaps mechanisms may have some other further use on Mars.

As for the Engines for a One-Time ship, perhaps they could be at their "End of Life" service.

So, then you would not use tile type heat shields for either the One-Time Landers, or the Semi-Cycler type Starships.

Ending Pending

I want to make a very rough effort to try to blend the materials of this topic with some concept of a cycling or semi-cycling spaceship, and then even the NOVA concept of Stoke Space.

Here is a refresher from Marcus House about cyclers: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Returning to this from post #5:

(Disregard the word "Lander")

What I have in mind is that both ships be brought to LEO, and then otherwise boosted by some other means if desired to a higher orbit.

One Ships tanks would be filled with Argon and water instead of Oxygen and Methane, and the other loaded with Oxygen and Methane.  The assembly would include a power supply and some means of Argon Electric propulsion.

After this assembly were lifted to a higher orbit by a most convenient means of some kind, the Starship with the Methane and Oxygen would burn most or all of its Methane and Oxygen to head out into deep space, hopefully towards an intended intercept of Mars.

As I have explained in previous posts, the Methane and Oxygen tanks would be purged, and then converted to habitation using resources perhaps stored temporarily outside of the ships.

Then this assembly would be capable of generating artificial gravity by inducing a spin to the stack.

This then may allow for a ballistic capture to orbits of Mars eventually.  The artificial gravity may promote health during the passage, but radiation is a big concern unless addressed by some additional means.

I propose that the additional means would be a "Semi-Cycler" which the assembly would rendezvous with in deep space.  Before you go crazy (th), let me define a "Semi-Cycler".

Coffee..............

Semi-Cycler: 
-This could be a device placed into a cycling orbit by primarily by Electric-Argon propulsion.
-It would include water tanks with water, and a power supply of some kind nuclear or electric.
-Since it will have water, for emergencies it may be possible to use thermal thruster methods for propulsion such as
explored by Calliban here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 67#p231367
-Another thrust method could be "Just-In-Time" Hydo Lox, where water could be split and sent directly to a small thruster in the event of a need.
-The "Semi-Cycler" would also include the means to do precision fermentation to produce food, using Oxygen and Hydrogen and needed nutrients.  Such "Food" could also be a means of radiation protection and emergency food as well.

In order to achieve its cycle needed, to be available to assist a crewed mission, the "Semi-Cycler", could use Argon-Electric drive and also perhaps gravity assists from planets such as Earth and Mars, maybe Venus.

-I would suggest adding a NOVA 2nd Stage from Stoke Space to the assembly as well, as the "Semi-Cycler" could generate propellants for it.  https://www.stokespace.com/nova/  The NOVA would likely be useful for landing on Mars and returning to orbit.  It would not airbrake from interplanetary space, but would be carried along on a "Ballistic Capture" method.

Here is Ballistic Capture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

As I understand it your ship gets to the leading edge of the hill sphere of Mars, and then falls downhill into an orbit  of Mars, as Mars moves toward the craft.  This process requires only minor thrusting with ion engines, and will not require air braking to get into orbit.  However the orbit is unstable and the craft would eventually leave the Mars Hill sphere unless additional thrusting is done.

Now you have arrived and are in orbit of Mars, with synthetic gravity and also sufficient radiation shielding.

(An alternative would be to separate the "Semi-Cycler" prior to the encounter of the Mars Hill Sphere, and then the ships alone would proceed to a Ballistic Capture.  This would then provide an increased radiation danger though).

If the Semi-Cycler did include itself in the "Ballistic Capture" then it might be primed with fresh Argon and water from Mars, and might then proceed to prime itself to be of assistance to another multi-ship expedition to Mars.

What has to be kept in mind, however, is that "Semi-Cyclers will have a service life, where power plants, and engines will deteriorate over time.

So, it might be good to use them in Mars orbit.

The NOVA type 2nd stage could then be used for transit from the surface of Mars to orbits of Mars.

Ending Pending