New Mars Forums

Continuing from the previous posts, I see one possible option would be to have Spaceships capable of spin gravity stop spinning, and "Land" or Moor into the center of the circle.  The crew of professional adults to spend some time proximate to the robots building this stuff.  They would spend some time, and then their ship would leave and another would take their place.  There would be a rotation of at least 2 such ships.

When a ship left the "Castle" they would go to a nearby free-floating sanctuary in orbit of Mars, and hide behind or inside of the sanctuary.  Each trip to the sanctuary they would bring more materials to make the sanctuary more helpful in protecting from space caused harm to humans, such as radiation.  They would spin their ship up and do a rehab for a period of time.

Eventually when the "Castle" was well enough anchored to the large slabs that may exist in the moon it was on then a spin gravity device could be put into the "Castle".

Originally, when starting the build-up, the humans would have to take sanctuary in radiation storm shelters as needed.

But over time as the "Sanctuary" and "Castle" were built up life would become better with more shielding from "Hard" Space.

And of course I expect certain supplies and crew rotations may come from Earth/Moon, and Mars itself.

If this technique would be perfected for both Phobos and Deimos, the method may very well also work for many appropriately similar asteroids.

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Example, Asteroid Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
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And here is another target: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde
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So, Carbon, Iron, Oxygen presumed available.  Probably because of the solar wind, both Eros and Mathilde, would have traces of water in the regolith at least.  But Mathilde being Carbonaceous, maybe more than that.  But that is not at all assured.

The point is if Iron turns out to work well in Magdrive, robotic ships should be able to swap materials all around parts of the solar system such as Earth/Moon to Jupiter/moons/Trojans/Greeks.  Propellant supplies should be relatively convenient.

So, I hope at its extreme materials like Carbon could be brought to our Moon.  That and perhaps water and a little Nitrogen.

Many "Castles" on asteroids, all over.

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In the previous post I suggested that regolith such as that from the moons of Mars, could be separated into gasses and solids, where some of the Oxygen is extracted as CO2, H20 and other things.  The solid remnant may have magnetic materials as a result.  Perhaps some Magnetite.  Some part of the solids may be possible to magnetize.

To do this, perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetiza … technology
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For fine materials though it may be possible to magnetically separate the solids into more magnetic materials, and less magnetic materials.

The more magnetic stream might contribute to a method for extraction of Iron.

I would hope to get some glassy materials from the various grades of materials.

So, another build process in use could be Additive Glass Working.
Included could be low temperature processes as a part of options: https://www.ll.mit.edu/research-and-dev … emperature
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The wrapping of a cylindrical structure in tensile cordage, might make such structure more durable/functional.

I a thick cylinder of materials were constructed on a rotational pole of Phobos or Deimos, this should give considerable protection from radiation from a sunward direction and some of the GCR.  The moon itself could give quite a lot of radiation protection.  Of course, an open top allows GCR in from that direction, but improvements overall are existing.

Here is a possible way to put something heavy of treated materials onto a moon of Mars:

The grey area between two circular walls would be mostly protected from space radiation.  For further protection a ceiling might be put in places between and higher up the walls.  Solar arrays can be put onto the outer wall.  While radiation protection is one desired result, the dual wall structure being heavy, might stay put even in the feeble gravity of Phobos or Deimos.  Each wall might be wrapped on it's outer perimeter with tensile cord of some kind.

So, the hope is to extract at least Oxygen but maybe Hydrogen and Carbon if some is in the regolith.  Then to extract at least some of the iron.  Then the tailings made into protective structure which also can be held by the tiny gravity of such a moon or a similar sized asteroid.

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From that then there may be a desire to tunnel into the moons and hollow out spaces for more habitat.

The entire process should provide structure and propellants for spacecraft as well.

Oxygen and metals for the most part.  The chemical propellant Oxygen and metals for something like Super Magdrive: https://newatlas.com/space/super-magdri … etal-fuel/  Quote:

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I think that possibly Human/Robot societies might resemble Lichen.

Algae does not need Fungi, to live in some places, but in the form of Lichen, Algae can spread to hostile environments.

In one scene of a Mystery Science Theatre, Tom Tubo gets upset when the human drinks out of the blender that Tom Turbo the robot is infatuated with.

So, if we are a part of a symbiosis, do cyber-brains in a jar get jealous about what occurs with a robot-animal.

That is, a highly intelligent machine system may not care, against humans about a machine-animal.  Or maybe we should call it a machine-animation.

If one Optimus is left to die on Mars for instance, can a replica of it's mind be teleported to another Optimus body.  As far as I can tell, an Optimus is partially a part of a hive mind but also has a local mind.

It is unlikely that robots will exhibit collective sexual harassment.  This is not what you might think it is.  Sexual Shame, has value to keep hygiene for the society, but this can also be a tool used by groups to prevent mating between those who else otherwise might mate.  That is sort of a television group shaming, which I suspect in part is vicarious sexual entertainment for the judgmental.  In other words, a deep-seated group selfishness that humans are only partially aware of.

Don't get me wrong, I think sexuality is a calculation.  There is only a certain number of careless behaviors that can occur before a mating system would be damaged.  So, morality has a place.  But sometimes morality acting masks selfish motivations from groups.  Even genetic envy.

I think it may be unlikely that robots will have such a motivation.  But then I could be wrong.

So, will a robotic system with a computer super mind, hate me for drinking out of a blender?

Probably not, unless it were insane.

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This is interesting.  What about prehistoric genius?  Could small groups of more intelligent people benefited by breakthroughs in technology.

Hiding from violence and finding resources out of reach of less intelligent people who more depend on brute force and cruel method.

I think if the rewards are good enough, a special group might emerge from a general population and shelter from the greater more primitive gene pool.  Of course their population might degenerate into verbal and violent once a more simple method of survival was formed.  So, a higher intelligence emerges because of the challenge of water crossing.  But once a easy giving unclaimed land was found for a period of time a intelligent group would expand.  But then the human becomes the predator of the human, and it may be possible that verbal and violent replaces genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgRYpQ1 … l=Timeless
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So, temporary groups of more gifted people could emerge but very possibly intelligence would be replaced by stupid, verbal, and violent.  In other words technological intelligence could lead to rewards, but the reality then may change to one where the combination of verbal and violent can take away those rewards.

Maybe

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So tents, more or less.  Items like Starship then functioning as equivalent to tent poles, and webs of lightweight and very strong materials.

This could be a tetrahedron, a cube, Dimanoid, or other shape.

I am only trying to give a beginning to a new construction technique that is related to previous concepts.

In addition to what I said above, I add Tensile cables, to help the structure stay together if it spins, and also Bags or regolith that can be wrapped outside of the Starships.

Also, interior to the starships bags of water.  The water can come from the Oxygen of Phobos and Deimos as also the regolith might.

The Hydrogen for water then more likely comes from Mars.

Should we treat regolith with heat and Hydrogen, we may get our water, and also magnetizable regolith.

Magnetism would be to help encourage regolith that gets lose to hang around other magnetic masses in microgravity so as to reduce the formation of a Kesler Syndrome around Mars.

The tent and the various masses of the structure will tend to moderate temperatures.

Then most likely, we have solar panels external to the tent, and any other things needed such as docking ports.

Synthetic gravity could go as high as 1 g but I would entertain the minimum that can keep adults healthy for a time.

It may be that periodically the "Tent Crew" and a surface base would exchange people so that hopefully, in the surface base adults can more fully be made well.

But there is much to learn.

And of course a tent is just a toehold to get the leverage to really have at Phobos and Deimos to build things.

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I hope you will not resent if I use this thought stream, to try to bring something peripheral to awareness, to attempt to drag it out to increased awareness.

The idea of "Split-Bed" geostorage/geothermal.

If we can make this arrangement we might mimic the Universe and turn dirt/regolith into machine parts.  This might also not have to interfere to strongly with normal uses of soil or planetary surface.

The Universe, in the case of our solar system expands so that vibrations from our sun can flow outward.  We can tap into this flow to make a smaller portion or reality run backwards, to store the energy of that flow for a finite time period.

This is not unlike an animal storing fat from the digestion of food, and Oxygen as a sink for Electrons.  https://www.varsitytutors.com/ap_biolog … port-chain
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I dimly understand what I am getting at, but by working with it perhaps greater awareness will come into consciousness.
By doing a split-bed thermal storage, we are also doing a split-bed, differential vibration storage.  The hot bed resembles the sun, and the cold bed will resemble the deeps of the expanding universe.

A video I watched this morning indicated that Elon Musk is interested in making solar powered data centers, well away from the urban areas.  So, the above scheme might run alongside of that.

For instance heat from the cooling of the data center could heat the hotbed or greenhouse, when convenient.

Superpower, used, could cool a section of ground so that moisture from the atmosphere could condense in the soil.
You could even take this to the point of permafrost, which is a phase change thermal storage factor.  Another factor of permafrost, is that if rain falls or snow melts, the water is inhibited from draining into the deep ground.

Of course having permafrost below your crops, will have influence on the health of the roots of a crop.

But in this system the soil/ground becomes machine parts, while still being usable for things like growing plants.

Gardening can occur even on top of permafrost in Alaska: (Canada also I presume): https://www.uaf.edu/ces/publications/da … alaska.php

The soil thawed on top of the permafrost of course has to be of a sufficient thickness.

In any case presuming that robotics could make the drilling process economical and make the hardware items at prices well below the current pre-humanoid robot era that is about to become history.

Time and economics will make a future determination of virtue or not in this set of notions.

I think that the self-watering garden is interesting.

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Bringing in some materials from other members: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 76#p231676  Quote:

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So, if as I want it we will have settlements on the ground and also settlements in association with Phobos and Deimos, even if it turns out that Phobos and/or Deimos have Carbon and Water, it may be easier to establish a base on the surface of Mars and run robots to build things, in orbit of Mars primarily of the regolith of Phobos and Deimos.  Or it could be vice versa.  Perhaps a combination of the two.  One hand washes the other sort of thing.

Being able to lift Ammonia and Carbon to the orbits of those moons we should be able to make whatever is desired.  Keeping in mind that solar power at those moons should be much more predictable and more easily concentrated than on the surface of Mars.

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And we might refill Oxygen, the main propellant by mass on Mars, Phobos, and Deimos, if we have the technology set up for it.

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And a byproduct could be Iron and Aluminum which may be useful in Magdrive and Neumann Drive, two electric propulsion methods.

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I want wonder about a special Starship type that can at least be imagined.

It is intended that this ship would not be for cargo hauling, and would use the hoped for 100 tons payload margin to allow the ship to be more fortified to do sideways landings on Mars.

I make note that the Lunar Starship is imagined to have special "OLM"? engines for a final landing on the Moon.
Otherwise perhaps small engines Metha Lox in type could be obtained from another vendor, perhaps Rocket Lab.

This ship would have a one-time heat shield, based on the current under-shield for Starship that is to be under the tiles as an emergency protection method.

The ship would require modifications in LEO.  Perhaps removing the Raptors, and attaching legs to the leeward side of the ship, to allow horizontal landing.

Instead of motorized flaps, it would have overly large static flaps.  This is to reduce the terminal velocity on atmospheric transit at Mars.  In fact, if strong enough the flap area might be again as much as the windward side of the Starship.

This Starship would transit to Mars with yet another Starship of some kind with the raptor engines in its tail as is normal.

The propellant inside this special ship, would be plumbed so that its propellant can be routed to the companion ship with tail engines.

This horizontal landing Starship, when entering the Martian atmosphere would use its horizontal landing engines to maintain positioning on the way down, instead of the motorized flaps.

Once the ship has passed though the peak heating, it may be considered to do a 180-degree roll on the ship, so that the heat shield is pointed up and the landing legs and landing engines are pointed down.

Then the ship hopefully can land horizontal, as it is hoped that it had been given strength to not snap in half on landing.

Some people then would think to pile regolith on top of the ship.

However if you could carve a tunnel in an ice mass like exists Korolev Crater, your horizontal Starship might be capable of hover, as it has those large flaps.  You might be able to fly it into a tunnel carved in ice, or maybe even into soft rock.

But another way is to hover it over to your superstructure and attach it.

Then I suggest Icebags draped over it.  Others have already contemplated similar: https://www.marsicehouse.com/  Image Quote:

So, I imagen that these bags will be tolerant of UV light, perhaps having Fluorine in their chemistry.

It does not make sense that a landing would be done somewhere where ice is not available.  So, presuming it is then the bags draped over the horizontal Starship, could have water pumped into them and allowed to freeze.

This may not be great for low latitudes.

But the bags could have various pigments.  Reflective like foil, transparent, or darkened.  Of course, Mars dust is likely to settle on them so either you can live with that fact or you have a cleaning method.

So, this ice shelter over the Starship probably would not be pressurized, but it would provide a shelter under your starship, that robots could work in where temperature and radiation are moderated.

Please request better definition if you think I have offered something that is not in any way practical before you assume you understand what I intend.

But perhaps I have done a sufficient description of such a proposal.

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I listened to most of the video, until it cut out because I bumped my phone doing housework.

It is interesting.  It is nice that their are people scheming these things.  I wonder how Tony Seba's thinking would intersect it: https://ourworldindata.org/data-insight … ty-doubled  Image Quote:

And if robotics reduces the cost of hardware, perhaps this decline rate in cost will increase.

It sounds like the people in the video run on lower expectations as part of making their methods work.  They don't expect maximum convenience and comfort all the time.

However, if the cost of solar panels goes down enough then some system like theirs could have the 3x, 4x, or 5x amount of solar panels that the least energy providing week of the year still be good enough.  For instance if you have 5x because you live in a very cloudy place, apparently people say that these solar panels can give power even on most cloudy days.  So, that can lead to a different philosophy, because solar power can become more like clockwork.  You would get some almost every day of the year.

So, using DC power would become attractive, especially if more devices for it were invented/created.

That then would leave you wondering what to do with the "Superpower" that would exist when better sunshine was available. 

I think if hardware is expensive then you more likely want to run it around the clock, but if robotics makes hardware less expensive there may be more cases where you would not mind if it were idle 50% of the time.

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The idea of orbital aquariums to grow something like Hydrilla comes to mind.  These could be spinning, but also non-spinning might be considered.  Each would have good qualities and troublesome qualities.

I consider Hydrilla as I am thinking it may have traits of a vascular land plants retained.  Perhaps fiber, but I don't know that. 

It grows well, even in low light conditions, and also can reproduce from fragments, I believe.  It can be rooted but it does not have to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla
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So, a weed of interest.

I have speculated on spinning aquatic farms for it where the advantage  may include, lowering the differential air pressure on windows to let light in.

But I am also interested in non-spinning methods.  Simply a large, pressurized tank of water.  Of course that could be deadly to humans, without the proper gear, but the farms would likely be mostly robotic.

The farms may be lighted, or might host light with Acetate and Oxygen, chemosynthesis.  That is if Hydrilla can be modified, to grow properly with that.

Vascular crop plants can benefit from Acetate but need more to grow properly.  There is some hope that the plants can be modified to not need light but grow well in Acetate and Oxygen.  This, however, is not proven.

https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
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Presuming advanced genetic engineering, I would hope that the plant could be modified into varieties, which may proved fiber, or foods, maybe even something like fruit or potatoes.

The advantage of growing things in a big tank of water in orbit could be many.
-Radiation protection.
-Thermal moderation
-Access to the tank walls to repair

As I have said the farmers could be robotic.  However, some centrifuge schemes might allow the creation of air bubbles of size that humans might be able to breath from.

Centrifuging a whole cylinder or disk, may provide a method to have sunlight enter an enclosure with low differential pressure.

For Mars we have a great unknown, as to what the moons can provide.  I tend to dismiss the idea that they can provide water and Carbon, but will be pleased to be wrong.

If all they can provide are metals, Silicates, and Oxygen, still it is a lot.  If you could bring Ammonia up from Mars and react it with the regolith of the moons you could get water and Nitrogen for the farms.  And of course the solid materials of the regolith could be used to build the farms.

However similar will hold true for the locations in the Asteroid Belt, and you would not be struggling as much with a gravity well as large as that of Mars.

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https://www.siimland.co/my-longevity-routine

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I wonder about pygmy people, what is the story for them.  And will there be an "Ideal Gravity"?  Some of the problem for large people could be inflammations, I speculate.  Presumably from fighting against gravity with a large body.

Some measurements of human psychology I would like to have:
-Size-ism
-Shape-ism
-Sick-ism

A Size-ism that I think exists, is that in business taller, maybe larger men get more promotions, and so then more income.  I am not surprised, because it would probably be instinctive to try to make alliances with men of physical power rather than to make them hostile to your power.

In the animal world, posing as larger than you are is one method to ward off an attack.  So, the Size-ism instinct is probably deeply rooted.

But a negative image of your Shape-ism, would possibly take away from that for the reason that you might be displaying weakness, which can subtract from a strong
"Size-ism" evaluation.
You might get some sympathy points but that does not make you useful to the power centers, it makes you a liability.
Sympathy points go to the children usually.

Sick-ism is the revulsion to illness.  In some bird that flock, a sick bird will be harassed as, it is a possible source of further infections.  It is a bit like some forms of quarantine.

So, these are instincts, and to some degree resemble useful mental illness.  A useful mental illness would be a more instinctive behavior that happens to direct you to do something that promotes the survival of your genes.

Being able to bypass instincts, that is an interesting skill, I expect.  Perhaps it is sometimes called Courage.  It may involve emotions or absence of emotions, but does it sometimes involve a higher level of consciousness?

These concepts for the Greeks as I have read.  The Greeks liked a fit athlete, but not too muscular, so they appreciated moderation, but might have valued a good score for Size-ism, Shape-ism, and Sick-ism.  And they did not particularly admire large penis.

Romans however in their degenerate periods, seem to have had emperors obsessed with a displacement of size-ism.
Men with large penis.

This might be a mental health measurement for a society, I think.

The reason I think it is that penis size was not likely to have any real utility for an emperor seeking to run the affairs of empire.  Having large men around you may give you power but also could be a threat to you if you could not maintain good alliances with them.

So, of course I wonder about American measurements as for "Size-ism" are they rational?

A small part of me thinks that such an obsession with male parts is not rational.  There is an expectation of some kind of large sexual reward, that does not very much exist in realty, I think.

My only concern is that if my leadership is irrational, that matters for the prosperity of my life.

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Another view:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

I have a fair amount of loathing for the Anointed of the baby boomers, even though I am a Looser baby boomer.

In our world Nuclear War was about to happen all the time.

And on TV which is what we had the chant "To get a good job, you need a good education".  Well, that meant going to college, or basically people thought I would be as good as dead.  That was the consequence of Sputnik.

I was definitely not going to make it as a Prussian.  So, our school system at least 50% totally sucked for me.  But I did learn some stuff, bless the suffering teachers who managed that much.

But as it happens, I could not very much go to college, money and grades.  The prison camp school system was not for me.

But I discovered that industrial realty was really rather good, overall.

What am I getting at?  Well, robots and what they do is perhaps the least bad thing that could happen.

You could have been handled in mass like salmon in a meat packing plant, and sent to a war, so the the weaklings could be killed off and the girls could welcome home war hero's.

Do  I see how this will all end well?  No, but there is going to be a lot of productivity.

It may be that the "Small Change" that you can earn will still buy you a ticket to OK.

No promises though.  Sometimes the luck might not hold out.

I feel like someone on high was looking out for this dummy.  I hope they will look out for your welfare.

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