New Mars Forums

I came here for another topic, but since I am here I will comment a bit more on the just previous post here.

Bifacial Solar Panels could be good for polar areas on terrestrial planets in the case of Earth where a undesirable ice age might occur.  I hear a lot about lots of volcano's just now.

What if it is important that the Earth overheats just a bit, as insurance against a sudden emergence of greater than normal volcanism which could ruin much of the farming we depend on?

In theory in an emergency, we could put bifacial solar panels in the interior of large fields of ice such as for Iceland, South Georgia, Greenland, and Antarctica?

I do not recommend it now, except as a small experiment to see how to do it if needed.  We would be manipulating albedo, which would somewhat warm the Earth's atmosphere, and might help to melt ice to some extent.  That would be to stop the sea levels from dropping too much.

Actually I might have liked the world of the last ice age for us if we could have redistributed the population, but in our current circumstances, a sea level drop and expansion of ice fields, would be economically harmful to the present so called civilization.

A problem on the Earth for this scheme would be winds that could be very strong and might blow bifacial panels over.  Also, the panels would have to be repositioned as ice shifted in depths and structure.

Mars:
I think it is reasonable to say though that Mars is indeed in a snowball condition, but additionally most of its ice deposits are covered in dust and even rock.  The rock I presume comes more from volcanic eruptions and secondary impacts from planetary impactors.

The planet seems however to be covered in many glaciers and ice sheets.

At the polar areas of Mars, however, winds should not be so much a problem for bifacial vertical solar panels.  So, that is a major plus for Mars relative to Earth.

If we "Melt" Mars by some terraform method, thinking desires lush green fields of England I suppose.  But that is not very well in reach.  More likely snowfalls will increase the reflection of light into space.  Bodies of water created may be likely be ice covered and then snow covered.

But Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels would act like Spruce Trees in our Northern Hemisphere.

It is my opinion that these trees have in part been terraforming the Northern Hemisphere: https://minecraft.wiki/w/Old_Growth_Spruce_Taiga

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce

https://treejourney.com/best-spruce-tre … jor-types/
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As you can see here on occasion snow falls, and a combination of wind and sublimation can rid the trees of the snow, but the ground may likely hold onto unmeted snow much longer.  At high latitudes light bouncing off the snow can often intercept the trees and cause warmth and even a bit of photosynthesis even in the winter, I believe.

We might hope to imitate this with Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels, and so alter the albedo of Mars where reflective water solids might accumulate.

About the trees and the ice age.  My understanding is that the northern trees need about 2 weeks of weather above 50 degrees F, to reproduce.  If they can reproduce and the permafrost soil melts to enough of a depth in the summer, then the trees can "March" north, and help to melt the ice caps on Earth.  This may have assisted the melting of the ice caps in Europe and North America, as the Ice age ended.

It is not certain to me that these trees used to be able to reproduce with such a short reproductive season or to have tolerated shallow melts of permafrost.  This could be a new adaptation that has altered the Earth's climate and contributed to destroying the Mammoth Steppe.  Or perhaps these trees could have done this when other ice ages ended in the much deeper past.  I don't know.

But if they assisted the melting of the on-land ice caps, they may also have provoked more open water in the north latitudes and so caused greater precipitation on the Mammoth Steppe and allowed the trees to grow into the Mammoth Steppe.

On Mars we will want to mimic this process, I feel as Mars is for more than one reason a cold planet an not likely to become warm, just warmer.

On the northern ice cap of Mars, I have supposed that the cap could be evaporated away or even melted to make a vast network of lakes and canals.

The atmospheric pressure in the Northern Lowlands can approach 9 millibars, I believe, and the land where the Northern Ice cap dwells, is pushed downward by the ice, so atmospheric pressure would be a bit higher if the ice could be cleared from that depression.  Further, if the CO2 of the ice deposits can be evaporated then the pressure at this location could likely be >2.5 * 9 = 22.5 millibars.  This would be much more protective from radiation than the current situation is.  On a guess and being optimistic, maybe as much as 30 millibars.

So with the pressure calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, the vapor pressure of water would be about 23.2977 for a 20 degrees C temperature.

However, I expect that lakes and canals will be ice covered, or dome covered or both at times.

As for the Southern Cap, it will be sort of Alpine in nature, and from my point of view the best thing to do is spread it out and collect the sunlight on it using Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels.

But of course, other optical methods for Mars could be used as well.

I do anticipate that early settlements on Mars will be at lower latitudes, but that some terraform techniques applied may make the polar areas more tolerable for subsequent settlements of robots and humans on and inside some ice deposits.

Ending Pending

A bit more unfinished business:

If the heat pump can create 400 degrees C and pump it to radiators in space, then this could be a way that heat is rejected in space. 

Presuming solar power in orbit, this might be a good way to make radiators work better in a vacuum, by radiating excess heat out of a habitat or other platform.

On a world like Mars or Titan, very hot steam might be expelled by evaporative cooling.

Ending Pending

Well, if the UN says something, I have low trust.  If the E. Viking says something, he says it and I only said he said.

If metals will not allow something to happen then it will not happen unless the mother of invention gives birth again.

Here is something interesting: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 58#p233358
I think it might have potential, but time will tell.

If we could make Carbon tanks cheaply, and embed them underwater, forms of heat storage might work out, but it is an "IF!".

I don't fly though the sky with a cape.  I just talk sometimes.

Ending Pending

I have some unfinished business in this topic which I intend to address.

A further technique for regulating the climate of Mars and Earth could be Albedo alterations.  Putting dust on the ice caps has been suggested by others in the past, and I have suggested mobile solar robots.

Dust application would possibly require repeats and would not generate power.  Extremely mobile robots might be more expensive per resources than is necessary.  I think the Germans came up with something, the bifacial solar panel.

https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement … ar-panels/
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In the event of a danger of a glaciated planet, which happened previously on Earth and is sort of true for Mars now, these solar panels could be the solution that could modify Albedo, and generate electric power.

There could be a danger of a "Snowball" Mars, if too much water was lifted from the ice masses and allowed to refreeze onto the surface of Mars.

Currently on Mars Seasonal CO2 frost can damage equipment such as horizontal solar panels.  Vertical Bifacial panels might survive the event better or be made so that they could survive the event.

Here is a case of damage on Mars from CO2 solid condensates: https://science.nasa.gov/resource/image … collapsed/
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So, for Earth, one thing we might do, if Earth entered an ice age would be to alter the albedo of the existing and forming ice masses at high latitudes and perhaps high altitudes.

Due to the Milenkovich Cycles, it is possible that a place like Sweden could develop summers so cold that ice and snow precipitation would not fully melt in the summer.  Then ice and snow could build up.  Then that buildup would reflect sunlight into space that would otherwise be absorbed by the surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

Where I have expressed a preference to have an expanding ice cap on the South Pole of Mars and a retreating ice cap on the North Pole of Mars, this tool could be helpful to prevent the emergence of a "Snowball Mars".

Some people think that Mars has been "Snowball" at times: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/08/04/snowball-mars/

The use of partially mobile Bifacial Vertical Solar Panels on Mars, may allow an alteration of the Albedo of the exposed ice of Mars, and serve as a useful tool to terraform Mars.

If they could be made rugged enough to survive Martian winters, then periodically robotic systems might elevate or move downward the panels depending on the accumulation or losses of ice on the surface.

These panels also might double as heat exchangers to get rid of excess heat inside of an ice mass as per the shelters I have suggested previously.

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Where first these methods might eliminate the permanent CO2 deposits in the South Ice cap and expand the atmosphere, also winter deposits if any would be evaporated sooner in the spring than normal.  Large quantities of ice could be melted, to cool habitats, and to send rivers of water down an aqueduct system to the Hellas Depression and perhaps other depressions such as Argyle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyre_Planitia

This process might then generate Hydroelectric power on Mars.  Ice covered rivers can run on the existing Mars, and in many cases, it is likely that flowing water would be covered by domes or be inside of tunnels cut in rock.

Ice dams could be a troublesome thing however, so that would require an expense to pay to regulate the prevention of them where not desired.  Otherwise, permafrost dams are a useful thing that could be created.

Ending Pending

I do not regard this as a contest.  Rather just a page in a notebook of possibilities for Mars.

My interest in the habitation of a polar ice cap is in part because of old Sci-Fi, and that some possible Mars futures might favor it.  I will include some old drawings related to such notions:


In the above drawing heat can be pulled out of B and inserted to A perhaps by a heat pump.
But if heat buildup is too much then Hot water can be vented to atmosphere, to dispose of the heat.
This process would also provide more void space in the ice mass.

The south polar ice cap might be converted to a vast interconnected set of pressurized spaces where robots and humans could work.

As the coldest spot over time would be the South Pole, you could expect the vented water to come back as more frost and snow, unless it is split into Hydrogen and Oxygen by UV light.  In that case then you get more Oxygen retained in the atmosphere.

Ending Pending

I am interested in the Hydrocarbon industry, if we do go deeply solar, wind, and batteries.

It seems to me that a market for Natural Gas would still exist in precision fermentation.  Using Natural Gas as the food for Precision Fermentation and Oxygen from the Atmosphere will yield products and CO2.  But some of the Carbon will end up at least temporarily in the organic produced products in many cases.  But if electrolysis were performed on Methane you might extract Hydrogen and Carbon.  The Hydrogen could drive the precision fermentation in part and a small amount of Natural Gas could provide the Carbon needed for it.  Carbon  created from Carbon extracted from Natural Gas could have value.

So, in that case our Natural Gas will not end up stranded.

Heavy Oil, perhaps from Alberta being heavier in Carbon would give less Hydrogen, but more Carbon.  But the Bitumen is valuable for many non-burning processes.

So, these two fluids may have some considerable value in the future without burning them.

And light oil might be somewhere between them as for amount of Hydrogen and Carbon.

If building with Carbon becomes less and less expensive, the market for Carbon could expand in the future.

I see that perhaps Carbon might be possible to make underwater enclosures from.

Unless organisms will consume it.  But in that case burial under ocean sediments or encasing the tanks in something else would remove most of the Oxygen from contact with the Carbon object, making it less possible for microbes to eat it.

Pipelines, heat exchangers, hot or cold-water tanks, and so on are early notions in my mind.

So, I think maybe we should want to work with the Petrochemical Industries to create such a situation.

Ending Pending

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR  Quote:

Unfortunately this seems to fit with things I have already supposed.

It might be described as the Europeans trying to revive a colonial system, and to turn the USA into a colony.  Stripping it of industry and inventions.

As I have said, I think the four turnings are followed by 4 turnings of an opposite polarity.  This only makes sense, as a process control needs to correct in two directions to try to hold to a set point.

As for those who may read this who are not of the USA, I will tell you that my desire is to see your liberation if possible, and to undo the damage that the enemy has imposed on us in the last 4 turnings.

Where the last 4 turnings saw the use of people like so called "Black" people to build slums as a replacement for plantations, now I expect that we will be coupling our response by association with more East Asian peoples.  But as can be expected the enemy will try to make that work against us.  I think that they don't have huge powers with the East Asians, except if they can strip industry from the USA to move to low wage and high quality East Asian labor.

I am disappointed that she feels that Musk is on the wrong side.  But he is so associated with inventions, creations, and higher level thinking, and he has so much association with East Asians, that I think he may not be a major problem.

Ending Pending

So continuing with the prior post about Hippos, and wondering about the other river killers, crocodiles and alligators.

Those are generally not strong enough to kill adult Hippos but will help fertilize the river system by killing animal visitors.  So, they are to a large extent useful to the Hippos, as long as they do not present too much of a threat to Hippos.

The crocodiles rely on water and plants to lure animals to the river side to be killed.  The fertilization improves plant growth.

Back to Hippos, the process of killing animal visitors, not only fertilizes the river, but prevents other animals from eating the grass that the Hippos eat.

Ending Pending

I call gasses that do not condense, "Carrier Gasses".  Nitrogen and Argon are in that category on Mars.  On Earth, in addition, both CO2 and O2 are also "Carrier Gasses".  They Carry heat from warm places to colder places while mostly not condensing.  So, yes if you warm Mars enough, then CO2 becomes a "Carrier Gas" on Mars.  If we could release lots of O2 from water to the Mars atmosphere, we could increase the carrier gas, and so in that case the Mars atmosphere becoming thicker, could help to move heat from the warmer places to the colder places, and so help to keep CO2 warm above the condensation point.  A situation I have concern over in such a case, lets say the Mars atmosphere becoming 1/2 what it is now with a matching content of O2, may be the production of large amounts of CO.

But an atmosphere with lots of O2 and CO would be a potential energy source.  But microbes might consume these substances and produce CO2.

The value of greenhouse gasses and particle method heating are that they will warm the cold areas more than they will warm warmer areas.

So, impactor energy would be conserved to a best purpose, if you also used greenhouse gasses and particle method heating.  You may have missed what I indicate by particle method heating.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scienti … -warm-mars
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Another way to warm Mars and produce Oxygen to add to the atmosphere would be to expose ice from under dirt, or slam an icy object(s) into the planet, or pump water vapor out of "Smokestacks".
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2101959118
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So, the way to have this favorable condition of high-altitude water clouds, is to have just the right amount of exposed ice or water on the surface of Mars.  Currently it has too little exposed ice/water.

But Mars does have ice fogs on occasion, and so in the nighttime the moisture in the higher atmosphere appears to drop downward.

If you had steam turbines that could work with an inner loop of clean water, that is cooled by evaporating less clean water, you could expel the steam to atmosphere, and I speculate that you could use microwave beams to cause the vapor stream to rise up to the high altitudes.  Further using microwaves might allow the Natural UV so to split the H20 into Oxygen and Hydrogen.  The Hydrogen would drift off, and you would have in increase of the "Carrier Gas" Oxygen.

The import of Nitrogen, perhaps from Comets would be additional useful.

So, a combination of methods would most likely be more productive than just impactors.  At least I speculate that is will turn out to be so.

Ending Pending

I understand some of your thinking.  I also think it is good to encourage extracting CO2 from the sources of it, and ideally making something useful from it, or maybe pushing it into deep rock layers, if that can be done safely.

I am interested in what the Canadian Provence of Alberta will do with their Tar Sands.  They are under pressure to reduce CO2 emissions and yet want to make money off of their resources.  It would be bad if the Easterners could totally stop Alberta Oil production.  But it would also be bad if Alberta was not pressured to invent methods to handle CO2.  Obviously the USA can make a buck if Alberta sells more oil to us as well.  It would be helpful also if Alberta could sell oil and other products to East Asia and West Europe without using the routes through the USA.

I think it is not a big problem if China makes Solar Panels with Hydrocarbons, and Australia, gloats because it goes strongly solar.  This will give Australia a power supply that could last 100 years if it has to at very reduced performance.  So for Australia then we do not have to bomb the Middle East as much to protect a power supply for Australia.  So, it is useful to the USA.  Australia being in some ways like us, and being somewhat protected by an action of China, is a unexpected benefit which I would not turn down.  There are those who say "There is safety in numbers".

So, you see, I am not religious about our energy sources, I like to think I am logical.

If we relied on canoes for our lifestyle, in what way should I obsess about how much embodied energy it takes to make a Canoe?  If Canoes can be made, then I have what I want.  I don't so much care if I have what I want.  If Canoes are traditionally made from tree products, and someone wants to make them from Aluminum or Fiberglass, then I don't say "You cannot make Canoes from tree products anymore", to prompt the conversion to making them from Aluminum or Fiberglass.  And I don't care about how much energy it takes to make the various kinds.  If one method is too energy expensive, it will then be likely to be financially expensive, so then is less likely to be made.

If there will be a lack of enough Copper to go all the way green, then a different path to go more "Green" will need to be invented.  Or we will not go more "Green".

A very important value that I think can be extracted from solar energy, (Of various kinds), may be individuality.  I have a problem with the British and European craving for Centralized control.  It should not be encouraged in the USA more than it has to be.

I believe that the British and European elites want to revert to feudalism.  They want to meter resources to the common people so to control them.  So, at least the Trump team, seems to be to a degree not to their liking.

So, there is the quality of individuality which some of us claim as a valuable American attribute.  But also the quality of robustness.  Some solar could be metered to create peasants out of American Commoners.  But home installations such as you have indicated you have, give you a possible personal power to better endure some social upsets.  And I have a desire to see that increased in the USA at least and also to any other related culture that is not corrupted by the controlling types of self-appointed elites.

When the self-appointed elites have been allowed to do their thing in Europe for instance, we get dragged into their stupid situations to help modify the result.

So, even if Solar Panels are not relatively favorable for embodied energy concerns, they potentially have values that are not the same as efficiency of energy production, but are useful.  Individuality and robustness are two qualities that the European Elites do not want to foster, because it less allows them to do an Idiocracy on their servant commoners.

So, yes, I favor solar, but the solar has to have worth for our Nation and ideally to promote individuality and robustness.

Ending Pending

And yet we will be forced to even lower wages for much of the work, by robots.  Your choices are robot made stuff inside the USA or outside of the USA.

If it is inside the USA the production process can be taxed.  If it is from outside of the USA the production process can be Tariffed just enough to keep the internal USA production functional and useful.

Ending Pending