New Mars Forums

http://news.discovery.com/space/the-met … 130610.htm

So, the way I see it is there are two surface environments, the lowlands which are corrosive to metals from the supercritical CO2, and the highlands that are apparently not corrosive in that manner.
Also, I see that the atmosphere is most corrosive where it is wetted by actual Sulfuric Acid mist.  I also recall that the lower layers of clouds contain the most H20.

So I am thinking a method to consider robots for the surface, and for "Floats" just below the mist layers of Sulfuric Acid.  I myself would try to build on RoboSimian.
http://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/tasks/ … aID=700043
https://www.google.com/search?q=robosim … QsAQ&dpr=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HFXO_qx5ZY

Having looked at your proposals, what makes sense to me, is to have a RoboSimian linked to a human mind, and to use it to operate primarily in the regions above the  supercritical atmosphere, and below the Sulfuric Acid condensate.  Really hoping to find protection from corrosion by being in atmosphere that is to hot for Sulfuric Acid to continue to exist, but is also low enough pressure that the atmosphere is not supercritical.

So operative in the "Troposphere", above the frost line (Above the Supercritical Atmosphere).

I am thinking I also want windmills in the highlands.

So RoboSimians, Windmills, powerlines, Tethers, and Blimps that float in pressures higher than 10 bars.  (Probably filled with Nitrogen).

All of these will have to have methods to tolerate the hot thermal environment.

A "Float" which is far enough below the mist to avoid virga induced corrosion, could be tethered to a highland point (Mountaintop?).  Power would come from windmills, mostly on the ground, but if you imagine an Air Craft Carrier floating in 10-20 bars of mostly CO2, tethered to the ground, that also could have it's own windmills on it.

The Air Craft Carrier could allow for several additional things.  It could be the anchor for a Tether and airship that goes above it into the Sulfuric Acid clouds.  That would be used to extract Sulfuric Acid and water from the clouds, and by some means bring it to the Air Craft Carrier.  Also, humans could visit the Air Craft Carrier,  They would have to breath a special mix (Helium/Oxygen?), and of course they would need very strong protection from the environment at the Air Craft Carrier.  It will make more sense if you do have Robosimians, that can operate on the ground, that those would pilot flying airships that go to the Aircraft Carrier and above the Clouds, but the Air Craft Carriers would allow temporary human visits for very crazy humans.

Rocket Ships:

The frost in the highlands is thought to be composed of Lead, Bismuth, and Sulfur.  I expect however that there will be other metals in lesser quantities.  Extraction and refining would be a desire.

Building and maintaining rocket ships on the aircraft carrier another desire.  So, if you had such ships, and they could land in the highlands, then next step might be to use an airship to lift them back to the Air Craft Carrier using an airship.
At the aircraft carrier, maintenance and refueling would occur prior to relaunch.  So, likely that "Air Craft Platform" would either be a mountaintop, or if possible an "Air Craft Carrier" floating considerably higher up.

Launch from the "Platform" would involve a blimp to tow the rocket up to a favorable atmospheric density situation at a higher altitude, and the firing the rockets, and going to orbit.  It could be noted that if humans wanted a ride to orbit they could hitch a ride, once the rocket had been towed to a higher altitude.

In orbit, I have read that Sulfur is a good metal in a vacuum.  So although Lead and Bismuth might have limited uses, Sulfur might be the metal of choice in orbit for much structure that can be in a vacuum.

Two other things can be mentioned now.
1) Floating cities could also exist above the clouds, for humans to live in.
2) If you had extensive wind power in the highlands, and "Aircraft Carriers" just below the clouds, which would be able to snorkel the Sulfuric Acid downward, then it should be possible  to decompose much of the Sulfuric Acid at a rate higher than it is being created by nature.  The result would be water and SO3?  Heat at the Aircraft Carrier would decompose the Sulfuric Acid.  A secondary method where the SO3 is converted to SO2 might help.

And we have spoken of Ozone creation and preservation, which would reduce the rate that Sulfuric Acid is created.  Further, if you have then converted most Sulfuric Acid into H2O, and have floating gardens higher up, then the H2O could be containerized into those floating greenhouses. and by doing that isolate the water from the SO2, an so reduce the production of Sulfuric Acid.

Volcano's would likely still dump Sulfuric Acid and water into the atmosphere, but that could be handled.

So, you would have a choices 1) Have a mix of Sulfuric Acid and water (Hopefully with much more water than now) in clouds or 2) Containerize most of the water vapor into greenhouses.  or a combination of 1 & 2 as desired.

Here is an interesting associated activity proposal.

http://www.space.com/28132-nasa-airship-challenge.html

I think airships could be an interesting development for Earth, Venus, and perhaps even a partially terraformed Mars (Increased atmosphere inflation presumed).  Outer planets would come much, much later, maybe.  But it seems like it would be a useful technology to observe in development.

Several potential associated processes could unfold from it.

I am interested.

Spacenut,

Perhaps a good plan would be to make environment chambers, maybe the size of a phone booth.  No significant differential pressure, but if possible maybe at higher elevations.

Then put scale model of a device into such a chamber where it will be challenged by the environment it is expected to endure.  Then hope to figure out materials that can endure such an acid environment with U.V. flux.

Tom Kalbfus,

If such models can be made to endure for a reasonable time, then send copies to Venus to float about, confirming that they can endure, and finding out about the weather.  Also perhaps seeking evidence of life in the clouds?

Wind storms will be a concern, even though the lower layers of atmosphere appear to be relatively static.   Further, I am concerned about lightning, even though I have read that Venus appears to have less than 50% as much as Earth.

On the side, I would like to know if anything can be figured out on how to capture ions from the tail of Venus when in orbit of Venus.

RobertDyke

From my point of view, it not that your plan cannot be considered, rather that other options might deliver goods sooner.

For instance atmosphric habitation may allow the surface of Venus to function mostly like it does now, which I am beginning to think could be a valuable thing.

Here is some reading if you are bored:
http://news.discovery.com/space/the-met … 130610.htm

http://www.academia.edu/8290772/Structu … enkel_Line

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=74121

http://www.space.com/27777-alien-life-s … oxide.html

I think most of us agree that there would be means to robotically access surface materials.  It does not matter the method.  The people who would do it will select the method of their choice.  Tom suggests something, Impaler suggests something, and of course I tried something.  It is not important, there would be a method.

The "Snow" on the mountains apparently may be Lead Sulphate and Bismuth Sulphate, which would be so abundant, that I don't know what useful purpose they would serve to humans, but I am thinking that perhaps there could be other mineral processes which have provided minerals humans would be glad to have.  The Supercritical CO2 situation on the surface, and not at altitude in the mountains, begins to suggest as well that surface actions might be possible that would benefit from Supercritical CO2.  Mineral extractions of course is what I am saying.

The machines to do it would have to be radically different, but then designing them might be fun.

We have chances of retaining the Earth as a human home, and also adding Mars.  But Mars will be somewhat Earth-Like.  Venus is an oportunity to do somthing different, that might be easier than trying to turn Venus into another Earth.

Terraformer & Quaoar

I see your stuff, and I support your views. 

Yes, the chicken and egg thing.  How to get it started.  I have had something similar going on in my mind Quaoar, but I really don't want do direct the flow of this thread.  I am sure there are many good thoughts here.

Here is another possibility:
http://www.oilonmars.blogspot.no/

I don't necessarily buy into everything he thinks, however, he does suggest mud volcano's, and there are observed some "Potential" mud volcano's on Mars observed by independent sources.

So to me this serpentinization is very important, because you could have a circumstance where a body of ice is built up over suitable rock, and it would sit static for a long time like a fireplace full of wood where no source of ignition was provided.  However if a quake or perhaps even a slight atmospheric warming (From a actual Volcano?) were to occur, and a trickle of melt water were to run into those rocks, heat can be generated from a chemical reaction, and that could further mix the rock and water and cause a run away reaction.

That could generate significant Methane, and temporarily alter the climate of Mars.

Finally this is from a different set of people, a different article:
http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/04/scie … -volcanoes

So, perhaps this could hold evidence of underground life ejected to the surface at some time in the past.

It does not replace the materials you have presented.  They are two different things, but it is interesting as well.

Finally, if Serpentization can occur on Mars, perhaps Fracking to cause it occur, could provide Methane on the cheep for terraforming Mars.

OK, signs of ancient life.

I would wonder how old these features are, how buried they are.  That is if you are going to look for ancient life, it could have been buried and exhumed by processes over time.

One thing that I would be interested in is seeps in the walls of canyons.  If ancient, then wind may have worn off the stains, but perhaps the cracks can be identified?
Those locations would be hard to access however being vertical. 

I wonder if the study of permafrost springs in the permafrost regions of the high Arctic could reveal rules about where springs are likely to have occurred in these regions under certain climate conditions.

If you might have had a lake, it is possible that it was spring fed, in a location with such changes in altitude.  As the lake might have dried up, then the springs might have been the last gasp of surface life.

Moving forward in time for a moment, I would have to speculate that under conditions where the equator were glaciated, where the atmospheric pressure was just a bit higher, it is not out of the question that snow pack could have melted and charged aquifers even in the last few million years.

For this reason, I would not even entirely rule out the existence of seeps even now, but they would evaporate as soon as the water emerged to the surface.  (Unless briny).

But going back, I suppose the acid phase of water might very well have done in any life that might have existed in ancient times, except perhaps underground, if an aquifer was not too salty.

That dark patch does look interesting.

A spring on Mars would benefit from being covered with an ice covered lake, that is the most likely situation where the permafrost would thaw enough to permit a persistent artesian well-up.  A transition from artesian water to lake water might cause chemicals to deposit, which might preserve evidence of life I suppose.  Perhaps the life would have even used the contrasting water chemistry to drive it's metabolism.

Quaoar wrote:

Because of your post, I have been thinking about steam powered rotor rockets for transit between the clouds (Where habits might be possible), and the surface.  Rotor down with a full tank of water (Which is also a consumable coolant),  heat up your tank, and then rotor up with steam power.  Not for humans I would think, but robots.

And on the surface nuclear powered robots for mining.

On the subject of mining, I wonder how hard it is to have super critical CO2 on the surface of Venus to extract Magnesium from the rocks?

And Magnesium being able to burn in CO2, of course that is the reason.  I have read of Powdered Magnesium rockets, but I am sure they are hard to run.  I think in one case they used a slurry of oil and Magnesium powder, but then tried to use Nitrogen? and Magnesium powder.  (But I don't think it was a jet engine).

I will suggest a possibility.

With cycling temperatures, salt absorbing water from the atmosphere, I think sandstone, or soil for that matter, might create small amounts of brine under the surface at some locations some of the time.  Freezing temperatures will separate a part more salty from a part less salty.  So it will push the brine out of equilibrium.  When the less salty part melts at the next day, it might be the most usable by life as a solution to absorb water from.  I also think that the two salt solutions might also provide energy for the microbes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversed_electrodialysis

I am guessing from the dates on the article above, that it has not worked out as a machine process, however the article below continues with it.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es5005413

I certainly might not know what I am talking about here, but it seems to me membranes and cells go together, and if there is an energy source, I can at least speculate on an organism harnessing it.

Mars offers solar, chemical, and perhaps this energy.  To find life near the surface, brine does offer the best chances for a solvent, as far as I could speculate.  It might also offer an energy source which does not require exposure to U.V light.

And if this is worthy of speculation, it also points to a method for life to be powered in Europa, and other underground seas.

Sandstone, may allow light into the near surface, so maybe is is a good choice for life that might use several energy sources, or a community of life that each uses one, solar, chemical, or salt differential.

Away from the equator, I would speculate that water ice deposited over salty soil might also offer a seasonal habitat.

I suppose it is a long shot, but I would think that a search might be done to see if any organism can utilize a difference in salt between two liquid layers.  For instance I think many bodies of water have differential salt layers.  An Antarctic Dry Valley lake has briny water at the bottom, and less salty at the top.
A river running into the great salt lake for instance might be a place to look.   Tidal pools.

Of course, other Earth organisms might have suppressed the development of such organism by being more competitive and pushing them to extinction or preventing them from developing.  But I would think that if science actually does not dismiss the idea, it would be worthwhile to look for such on Earth.  A more precise analog might be in a high salt desert in Tibet, or other mountain ranges.  Preferably where a day night cycle repeatedly freezes and thaws a salty soil.

Most salt water differentials would require the organism to move long distances to experience first the more salty and less salty.  However a freeze/thaw of salty soil might provide a short term differential, where a single droplet of salty water was the habitat which each cycle is separated into differential fluids by freezing and thawing.

I have just been on this topic, to test the idea that human like populations could be involved in interstellar travel.  Antius added a more active concept, then just slow migration.

I guess I would not consider trying to move a large object (Dwarf), unless some completely unknown powering method was discovered.  I don't think it likely.

The only modification I could add to what Antius has specified, is that when you were done with the Comet, you might have choices.  You could split into pieces, and use one piece to impact a target planet.  For instance a cold world with a Nitrogen atmosphere, to give it a temporary warm up.

Depart from the comet with your ships, slow them down, possibly have been able to target the said planet with the comet remnant.  Land you ships on a temporarily warmed up planet.  Release super greenhouse gasses.

Louis,

I want to make sure that I did not intend the "Screaming Child" thing to indicate you or any of your associates.  I am really thinking of the human race as a whole, and much less people like you.

Please don't take insult.

But I think there is no reason to close off other options at this point.  Granted solar cells are the most proven option for Mars, but it will be some time before the first "BackPackers" go to Mars.  When they do, I think it is very likely they will have solar cells or fission nuclear in their backpacks.

However, when they are in the forest, they may come upon options which could prove valuable.  I think it is too soon to pour concrete on this.  Measure twice, cut once.

Having specialized thinking is good to create a focus, but if that focus is off center for best options, then much might be lost.

I am most interested in contrasting options.

1) Lava Tubes
2) Sandstone
3) Salt Domes
4) Create structures manufactured (Although they have to be buried if they are for human habitation).

And then there is another option.

5) http://phys.org/news/2014-12-thermoelec … wable.html

For the adaptation, I resort to reservoirs of water.  Although it will not be possible to completely eliminate salt, salt is hostile to manufactured items in most cases, so I propose
reservoirs of mostly fresh water where the typical top layer is ice, and above that a protective cover, perhaps soil/rock.  Below that cold water perhaps 0 degC.  In that containment, tanks of hot water with the energy producing ability of the article cited.  To keep the cold layer and the hot tanks fluid, then solar concentrating mirrors, to create steam.

But this is a late development method, and will be most suited to high latitudes.  So, first the backpackers (Which most of you are), and then targets of opportunity, then perhaps mastery of the planet (Maybe).

It is too early to exactly specify, in my opinion.

Fusion is likely the golden hope.  If and when ever happening, then it opens two worlds that offer some mercy. 

It is silly for us to pretend that we do not rely on Earth's kind nature to give us most of what we have.  And to get that we butcher it without mercy.  The hope is to become more that a screaming child, a brat that demands things.  It is possible, but not assured that our blood lines will achieve respect.

So, sure, solar cells have merit, but what about Titan, and the beyond?  No solar to speak of there.  We are too soon to plan for what may be in 15 or 30 years.  I will be well forgotten then, if not sooner.

Please note that I altered Fission to Fusion for the golden hope.  Weekends make me only worse for coherance   Whatever.

I just think you need to be careful to not be myopic before you have considered the whole long scale progression potentials.