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People in the UK actually live near their work and not some 30 miles out.
Yeah, because they can only go 25 miles without drowning.
By the way the government didn't force us to live where they wanted us. They just made it economically unfeasible to live very far out. Which is a good thing because suburbanization is a terrible thing. It destroys good land just so that people can get away from "the hustle and bustle of cities".
Punitive taxation for the purpose of social engineering in the very definition of tyranny. Have fun with that, but keep it to yourself.
Was there ever such a price point put on the VentureStar?
If it worked it would have put 20tons to orbit for the cost of fuel and upkeep. The fuel tank issues were solved after it was canceled. Whether or not upkeep would be low enough, remains to be seen.
I think the Air Force has a variant of it, and McCain with give it to NASA to eliminate the development cost of the Ares I. The puts the Ares V with functional reach by the end of his term.
One world or system governments will not work if their aim is to enforce its will upon it people. It has to enforce its peoples will within a certain set of limits. No government, no matter how well intentioned to the latter, is immune to becoming the former. It requires that people stand up for it. So it really doesn't matter how many people are a part of it or where they are, so long as they can communicate and take part.
The War on Terror is not going to go away, even if we stop fighting it for a season. If we stop, Islamic fascists will have even less reason to. The enormous cost of the war is largely caused by the fact that we were not spend enough on the military before it. How do we regularly spend $400-500billion, and then have to spend another $100 billion a year just to use it? To Bushes credit, he hasn't allowed this to interfere with security of the country. On the other hand he's done nothing to remedy this. And yes, because he's got friends who can pick up the slack.
The funding for space will come from the vast waste in the rest of the federal budget. Increase military spending to half the current federal budget, constitutionally limit the role of government to national infrastructure and consolidate local and state government into branches of the federal hierarchy, and pay for it with the other half. You'll have a vibrant, secure economy no longer burdened by government waste and able to lead the way to a bright future on Earth and in space.
In turn, that will do more than bombs and bullets ever could.
sounds like the US constitution for space.
So?
Theres some neat stuff in there, but really I have a hard time seeing a need for a legislative body that covers the entire Solar system. What exactly would they talk about?
An executive enforcement body that enforces universal human, civil and legal rights from the various kooks that are bound pop up, maybe.
But really if we still have to argue about the particulars of those rights enough to need a legislature, then we've already failed.
OT beep.
The words 'space', 'mars' or even 'outsourcing' haven't appeared for some time.
Hint: this is a space politics topic.
Well if the goal is to fund Space, or Mars, and to avoid outsourcing, then you need to eliminate the wasteful spending that make up the Medicade/are, and Social security budgets. They are the largest segments of the budget that are negotiable, or even constitutionally required.
Funding it and running it are two different things. What government should do, and I mean mostly local government, is to take the education dollar and give it directly to the parents so they can decide where to send their children to school. The whole idea of government run schools is ludicrous. Just like the food stamp program, if you receive food stamps, you don't go to a government run store to buy your food, you go to a privately run supermarket. Too many people are attracted to the idea of government run this or that. The think government does things better. I think if you need government to redistribute, then government should do exactly that, and it should not get involved in the process of actually providing the goods and services it pays for. The more money that goes for excessive benefits and unnecessary jobs for government workers, the less money comes back to you in the form of government services. I'm sure the poor person in need of food stamps doesn't appreciate all the benefits and perks workers in the agriculture department get while shuffling papers and doing other unnecessary work with money that gets siphoned off from that which would otherwise buy food.
You can throw all the money in the world, really, it's been attempted, at education, but if you can't instill discipline in the class room and make the curriculum useful, it won't amount to a hill of beans. The teachers unions have a lot to do with it. The greatest reason to abandon public schools is because they are failing, if you fix them I think the equality and sense of community they create make them the obvious choice. Sure some other schools will offer different options public schools won't but I think the schedules can be structured to make room for them.
Public educational infrastructure for all ages is the cornerstone of a free and prosperous republic. We just have to make sure people learn, and it doesn't turn into a glorified baby sitting service.
I don't think we need the US Space Command for exploration missions. But there is certainly plenty of national and planetary security missions short of that, ranging from solar weather observatories, comet and asteroid detections, deflection, and destruction, and preserving control of LEO for the good guys, to warrant a separate branch of the DoD. That doesn't mean NASA shouldn't do NEO missions, cause the goal is fundamentally different.
And of course we have to prepare for the eventuality that a hostile or rouge entity could threaten surface installations.
I think that we already have the data for Mars Cosmic radiation exposure and from it land in the areas that are dark blue and we are fine.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/s … 20308.html
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=7584
The higher the altitude, the less atmosphere, the less protection.
I think when the time comes we'll be quite surprised how much Constellation hardware can be directly applied to a MSR campaign. It will save a lot of time and development costs.
The question is what do we do between now and then. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot planned in the launch windows in the mid to late 10's. Finding and getting at the water should be our priority.
They significantly increase the cost of health care and workers comp insurance, both huge issues on major construction sites.
I am for good quality health care for everyone and not just for everyone in the United States either. Good quality health care should be considered part of doing business. If those business aren't going to have health care for there workers, then they don't need to be in business at all. If business aren't going to be taking care of there employees and will take unfair advantage of them, then I don't want them in business. I think it should be a right and not a privilege to have a good health policy or program for everyone in the United States and not just for those on a large construction site with those large contracts. If they were getting either no health care or sub-standard health before they got that job at that large construction sight, then I should hope that there health care should be better and if it cost more, then OK. Now where there are abuses and there is even fraud going on with the people that are using the health care or the ones providing that health care to the people, then Yes something should be done about it. I also consider a good health care program should also include having clear water, good quality food that not been contaminated, clear air, etc. I consider what you call a health care plan to be only apart of a bigger package of a prober diet, clean water, clean air, etc
What I consider to be part of a bigger health care plan were to be done, then the part that you consider to be a health care plan should go down in price, because fewer people will be getting sick and won't need Health care.
Larry,
Business has no business in health care. In fact theres already too much business in health care, thats why it cost so much, the stockholders can not be denied. The simple fact is that people will pay any price for the chance to stay alive, it's a survival mechanism. It's the nature of business to take advantage of this.
The trouble with treating health care as a right is that people start treating life as a right. Health care is just as much an art as a science, with the out come determined by circumstances often unforeseen and beyond a doctors control. Furthermore, health conditions are not merely a question of combating competing organisms, genetic conditions and just plain old stupidity on the part of patients play equal parts. And we can't exactly enforce diets and other healthy measures to mitigate them and still call ourselves a free country. Though some places try.
The only thing we can do is make sure the facilities and technology are available, and let the doctors do their job. I think we can build, operate, supply and man more than sufficient general, specialist, and emergency infrastructure for a fraction of what we are paying now, even while ensuring that the builders, suppliers, and staff make a worthwhile profit. Supplies can be mass produced cheaply to a surplus for emergencies. Doctors should be handsomely paid for the extensive training and tremendous responsibility they bear. Drug and device advances could be funded much like the defense industry, with the government owning the right to reproduce as needed.
I'll try to resist making that old joke about what a great first lady Bill Clinton would make.
If you have to resist out loud, you've already failed.
ID is just some convoluted shit which by no mean can call it self science.
Actually, its the cornerstone of agriculture.
Why is it so difficult to believe that we are the product of it?
And of course we know the definition of "day" varies depending on were you are.
You should have vote to Kucinich. ;-) Now it is too late.
Were electing a President, not a first lady.
Whatever happened to the planned Shuttle flyback boosters to replace the SRBs?
I wonder how well they could be adapted to the Ares V.
If I was an American I wouldn't offer ESA a free ride. The Europeans do nothing but badmouth the Americans, just like the Russians and China. Why do them any favours?
Do the Americans need the others? No. Do the others need the Americans? yes.
Of course it's not free, their giving us a rover.
*calls shotty*
The other elephant in the room here is the fact that cost so much to merely exist. Various forms of insurance/extortion, a court system that allows an absurd level of idiotic litigation, and a fundamental failure of the education system I mentioned make us so dependent on other to exist, and in completely non-productive fields. We pay for things we don't need just to keep others employed.
Frivolous lawsuits is one thing.
But, what does that have to do with whether we build subways or super trains system or nuclear power plants?
We need those things!
So let build them.
Larry,
They significantly increase the cost of health care and workers comp insurance, both huge issues on major construction sites.
Oh yeah, cause those people are just working to hand over everything to the state, right? Cause they'll just stay rich forever, no matter how much you tax them. And everyone will still aspire to the high office of goverment cash cow.
Actually, no, history has proven this to be wrong.
Just show me the millionaires that are begging on the street from government taxes, and I'll believe you.
Millionaires by and large do not get that way by being stupid. If taxes threaten their revenue, they either pass the cost on the the customer or move as much of their operations off shore, in either case everybody loses. Some will also fight back in the political spectrum.
As for the value of space tourism, it has a lot to do with how we structure the program. Economy of scale is the key to everything, as it will make the dollars go farther, and increase the prospect of truly private space travel. The day Bill Gates decides he can afford his own space yacht is the day he decides he can put his servants into space.
A few Bill Gates types in space in a feudal system won't be a very promising model for space tourism. We need to develop a form of mass passenger transport. I reckon we need proper colonies before thats a real prospect. Thats how tourism works in the modern era, a lot of people can afford to go and in bulk.
The investment a private citizen puts into making himself comfortable in space is just as valuable as government R&D, far more applicable to long term colonization than just exploration, and cost the taxpayers nothing.
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If you really want tax revenue, teach people how to take care of themselves so that they are not pinching every penny to survive under oppressive taxes.
Oh please... Modern history has shown this to be untrue.
How modern do you do you want to go because as late as 2002/3 US tax cuts significantly increased government income because more people were making more money from the money they no longer had to hand over to the goverment. If there was a goverment in existence that could get elected by functioning within its means, it would have run a massive surplus.
To what end exactly? Do you really think you can solve everyones problems?
It won't solve all problems, but it will deal with several serious ones.
The trouble is it tries to graft an insufficient command economy on a free market with a fixed budget. Any change in cost or demand throws the entire system out of whack and the taxpayers pay the price. That hurts revenue, and the entire thing becomes a death spiral.
You either have to put the investment in infrastructure to eliminate that vulnerability and that, or stand back and let the chips fall were they may.
Ironically, while your advocating the reduction of military spending, increasing the size of the military produces logistical requirements that answers most of the issues of providing the necessities, to those who can't do it themselves via mass production while providing opportunities for those who can but somehow "don't".
That worked so well before.
They haven't tried it before. For the price of the Iraq war, we could have done a Mars Direct Mission several times over. Actually we probably could have went to Mars by the End of the decade instead of 2034. That has to make you just sick. Going to Iraq achieved little but the destruction of the country and pushing up the price of oil.
Its a red herring because we were never going to spend the $500billion on anything else, much less Mars.
Washington doesn't want anymore oil, its apparently bad for the environment, and the anti-war party likes the tax revenue the high prices bring. So much so they are trying desperately to make it worse.
The incumbent government are not enviromentalists - I heard they wanted to drill Alaska, the anti-war party aren't in power (If there were such a thing). Rightly so, Washington doesn't want more oil, but it wants to control world energy reserves. Cheney and Bush are making their friends in the oil buisness pretty wealthy.
It wants one thing and one thing only, control of the people and their money. The dirty little secret is the only ones making more money from the price of gas than the oil companies and OPEC is the IRS.
Ok, this is descending dangerously close to a political thread, so I expect some of this to be split off there. Never the less, I'm not going give this a free pass...
I've a slightly better idea for those with more money than sense! Tax the bejeezuz out of them. They can afford it, they won't end up begging on the street. Honestly, I don't see a couple of rich space tourists paying that much of a meaningful role in a space economy or colonization.
Oh yeah, cause those people are just working to hand over everything to the state, right? Cause they'll just stay rich forever, no matter how much you tax them. And everyone will still aspire to the high office of goverment cash cow.
Actually, no, history has proven this to be wrong.
As for the value of space tourism, it has a lot to do with how we structure the program. Economy of scale is the key to everything, as it will make the dollars go farther, and increase the prospect of truly private space travel. The day Bill Gates decides he can afford his own space yacht is the day he decides he can put his servants into space.
And then of course theres the souvenirs.
I think there will be buisnesses in space, but the way to make that happen is to invest in targeted R&D and Infrastructure programs. Kinda like 5 year plans, that move everything up a level, get it up to standard. The wealth in space will come from its enormous mineral reserves.
True business as we know it on Earth is far on the other side of colonization threshold. Beyond some of the more exotic stuff, we have our physical needs covered on Earth. And its incredibly expensive and/or dangerous to bring stuff to the surface. The real advantage of those resources is to mitigate the cost by building everything we need off world.
Europe get rid of socialism? I think not. I don't think we're socialist enough. Actually thats such a stupid thing to say since Europe consists of many countries with different social policies, a lot of them very very right wing. Wrecking social programs will not be a boon for space.
Socialism is not an obstacle to developing space and tech as we've done excellent work with CERN, ITER, Ariane 5, Venus Express, Mars Express, Jules Verne ATV.. etc etc
To what end exactly? Do you really think you can solve everyones problems?
If you really want tax revenue, teach people how to take care of themselves so that they are not pinching every penny to survive under oppressive taxes.
I think that there should be more co-operation in space rather than individual nations competing.NASA's budget is being ripped to pieces, so even the US space prospects aren't looking too good. If that tab could be shared by several nations, that would be awesome.
Space exploration is not a pot luck supper. The more systems the more everything costs. The ISS should have proved that beyond a doubt.
If the US cut down its military spending (like in Iraq), it could afford to do a lot more than its currently doing.
That worked so well before.
Someone should tell Washington there is oil on Mars, so they can bring "democracy" to it.
Washington doesn't want anymore oil, its apparently bad for the environment, and the anti-war party likes the tax revenue the high prices bring. So much so they are trying desperately to make it worse.
The greatest challenge in asteroid mining is simply handling the material in zero g.
We can have a real economy on the moon/asteroids/mars and colonies without resorting to that bullshit.
Really?
Who's going to pay for it?
Everybody. Thats how NASA has worked and its doing pretty fine so far. I think on a global scale, there will come a point where humanity as a whole should invest in settling the solar system. The actual spending on space is miniscule compared everything else. I heard Stephen Hawking bitching about this recently. http://space.newscientist.com/article/d … onies.html
Something along the lines of a system of five year plans that puts the basic infrastructure in place for living, transporting and trading in space. This R&D and infrastructure will make it much easier and more profitable for companies to trade in space. The government(s) can then establish a licensing system to recoup the money through taxing space companies.
A form of asteroid mining is where we should be going with space. There is an incredible amount of useful minerals in the NEO's and asteroid belt.
And why shouldn't tourism for people with more money than sense be apart of that?
The trouble is you can't get blood from a stone. The US afford this, the rest of the world, by and large, can not. If Europe got rid of socialism, they could match NASAs current budget. Various other democracies like Australia, Brazil, or SKorea combined could probably do the same. Russia's priorities are a bit of an enigma. The US, if it got it's act together could do five times what its doing now. Thats whats going to get the job done.
So thats maybe a third of the worlds population represented. You can't colonize space with a third of the world represented without them becoming colonies of those countries, and repeating the mistakes of the past. Furthermore, theres a big difference exploration and colonization. While the former answers the technical questions, the latter has vast social, economic and political implications that have nothing to with the former.
The other elephant in the room here is the fact that cost so much to merely exist. Various forms of insurance/extortion, a court system that allows an absurd level of idiotic litigation, and a fundamental failure of the education system I mentioned make us so dependent on other to exist, and in completely non-productive fields. We pay for things we don't need just to keep others employed.
We can have a real economy on the moon/asteroids/mars and colonies without resorting to that bullshit.
Really?
Who's going to pay for it?
Vincent makes an unintentionally important point.
Keep in mind that just because people can function in dorm sized tin cans and cubicals, doesn't mean they want to. Humans are still biological creatures, and while they are willing to work, still want the two weeks at the lake every summer that they deserve. And they can't take a 6 month one way voyage back to Earth to do it.
A terrestrial surface is teeming with space that can be delegated for that sort of thing. Where are you going put that on floating city?
A tunnel boring machine also takes an incredible amount of manpower and spare parts to operate on Earth. It will be a long time before one is functioning on the moon.
With a minimal of equipment, we could melt lunar silica in to masonry and build regolith structures for or over our habs for the same effect.
With a little bit of preplanning, we can robotically cannibalize our Altairs decent tanks into a mini base after we go, and have them covered with bricks when we return.