New Mars Forums

Continuing from the previous post, the amount of air-filled void space is expanded: 

As the little world expands the box can be enlarged.

The box might have radiation protection especially in the direction from the sun.

While it may seem prudent to land all the resources for 1,000,000 humans onto Mars from Earth, could we consider manufacturing facilities on Deimos and Phobos, where many bulk items would be created, and those could be then transported down to Mars?

The speed of air braking would be reduced.  Supplies from Earth/Moon could more come across with Electric Rockets.

Heat Shields might even be manufactured from the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

In the end you would have 3 worlds not just Mars, and if this can work then it would likely also work for worlds like Bennu and Ryugu.

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I think that your words represent a set of valid measurements offtherock.

The question of smart must be answered by another human who may suggest that they are smart enough to measure another human being.

Now I am not wanting to suggest that I have all the mental assets that I wish I did, far from it.  I am just happy if I discover that I have anything at all that may be of worth in that regard.

I grew up in a place where there were almost any ethnic group of Europe that you could imagine.  And so called "Native Americans" as well.

At this point I don't particularly fault any of them for being bad, they do have some general differences, but they are all just trying to make something work.  So, I want to make sure it is understood that I do not hate a particular religious group.  At least as long as they are not involved in underhanded things.  But I am at peace with all who I grew up with.

A story: A student kept harassing a teacher in a class, and said, how come people from my group have better grades than the other people?
The teacher resisted for quite some time, but upon becoming exasperated finally said "Because if I don't give you good grades, you parents will have me fired".

Well now then we may understand that intelligent might be defined by those who want to advertise their talents as the most important.

That is just a part of the puzzle though.  There are so many things.

As for the Small Brains, they will tell you many things.  The brains became more efficient.  Tall people are more intelligent because they can have bigger brains.  (Presumably their bigger brains are also claimed to be more efficient).

But the small brain has been associated with poor diets.  That is agriculture, did not provide the same nutrients as Hunter Gatherer food, and was to some degree toxic.   But it did allow hierarchy, and finally writing.  Writing leads to libraries and evil librarians as well.

So, the super intelligent big brained Hunter Gatherers invented farming, and civilization and writing.

Then specialization occurred.  A slow-moving hive mind of people rather than highly autonomous big, brained people.  Specialists.

The priests could calculate the seasons and tell the surfs when to plant what.  The surfs were experts at using s stick to plant crops.
The Pharoh banged his sister or mother and produced (Oops!).  But being a deformed god-king, it was only appropriate that you should be able to grab anything you wanted.  Perhaps not from the priests as much not directly.

So, if you are an inventor, and accumulate wealth from it pretty soon you are robbed and dead and perhaps the nobles are banging your women who have become low level servants.

So, yes stupid emerges from the most honored.  And you better honor them or you are next.

The importance of wilderness is a template where nature will favor intelligence.  Opportunities and problems to solve in order to survive gives you a large autonomous brain and if you can get yourself some leisure time, then you might reuse your large brain to think beyond just material needs.

There are other things to talk about in this regard, but the above is quite a lot.

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Oh there is one recent thing.  Speculation that interbreeding with Neanderthals may have slowed down human evolution.  Probably this is from the people with "Small Efficient Brains", and maybe they are tall with "Small Efficient Brains as well".

You see the problem is that they always have a need to be at the center of an ego they want to honor.  It could never be that they the examiners may be examining things that may have been better in some ways then those who examine.

They seldom fail to do this.

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In post #7 Calliban provided very useful information, Quote:

It is very difficult for me to grasp just how much materials there are in an object like Bennu, so I will give some representation of what I think Calliban was indicating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere
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  Image Quote:

There are several likely means of propulsion.

Flyby's of planets such as Venus and Mars could eventually be involved.

But prior to that expulsion of mass by MagDrive, Neumann Drive or a Mass Driver system could move it from being a danger to Earth to an joining to another asteroid.

As a target for Starship centered expeditions, it would not require heat shields, and could provide Metha Lox propellants for the Starships to return to Earth/Moon or to proceed to another destination.

A list of near-Earth Asteroids, there are many of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a … s_to_Earth

Even some stony asteroids may have some water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa
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So, I think the red is Mars.  It looks like Itokawa almost touches the inner asteroid belt.

If Itokawa lacks things like Carbon, Bennu could provide it.  And it is likely that the inner asteroid belt has more objects like Bennu.

So, you see dedication of 1000 Starships to asteroid projects may not be nearly as silly as a first look may indicate.

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We could try a lasso with a tether.  A loop around the asteroid, can be helpful, particularly if there are large chunks that it might get looped around.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=The%20dim … orm=IPRV10

Dimensions Quote:

But there can be other tools.

A Starship with a Dipstick:  So, if it had a dip stick, how far could it poke into Bennu?  Radar and temperatures?

How about a "Mole on a Pole"?  A battery powered mole might be poked in and might move about.  Perhaps it would be on a tether so it could be pulled out.

Or perhaps a robotic fishy could be swishy.

Knowing the internal anatomy perhaps rock anchors could be deployed.

I may do a prolonged pause here for a bit.....Continued in next post;

So, things desired to work with rubble asteroids with water and Carbon are;
1) Hard Anchor point.  (I hope Lasso methods may provide this).
2) Means to maintain human health near the asteroids long term, years. (I think a space station built of many Starships might do to start).
3) Means to collect asteroid materials into a centrifuge.
4) Means to process the collected materials, perhaps involving methods of pyrolysis.

Now, this is just a simple try:

From the just prior post I hope to collect small rubble to the applicator: For Bennu, we might consider a honey applicator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_dipper
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If we imagine it on a robot arm, and then applied to the asteroid surface we might try magnetics and especially electrostatics to accumulate materials.  Then the Applicator is put into the door and spun to shake the materials into the dual drum centrifuge.

I would like to consider if electrostatics might be able to be of assistance as in waste recycling: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … 62660-9_11
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I believe that they use triboelectric forces somehow.  I am not learned enough on that yet.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 24-00903-9
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I could hope that something like this may work:

The hope is to get materials to stick to the then stick it into the door of the spinning drum assembly and then spin the Applicator to make the materials dislodge and then enter into the drums.

The drums filled up then a door closed, and the drum assembly deployed to a processing situation which might involve Carbon or Hydrogen Pyrolysis.

This is not at all a finished process, rather it is steps in a good direction, I hope.

We will hope to get fuels and eventually Oxygen from this and also to magnitize more of the Iron content to be helpful in extraction of Iron.

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Thanks Calliban.

I am very excited.  If we could develop the tools to work with this material, then there may be so many other opportunities.  We need proper tools.

And this may very well eventually fit into a reality where we seek establishment on Mars and Luna and other places.

You have offered tools with some prospect of profit.  I have learned from such.

For the moment I am going to go just a bit frivolous, please excuse.  Humor is often the laxative of the sphincter of wisdom.  Or not.  It depends how much freedom we have before the fuddy-duddies mess the progression up.  In that case dumb is more likely than wise.

There is a wiki for plungers, my goodness I have to find a way to give them some support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunger
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Now a rather simple tool, a plunger on a robotic arm, and impart to its plunger essence cling factors to make particles of a rubble asteroid hug to it.

We can try magnetics, static electrics, and what the lizards that walk on Walls do, Van ???

Anyway, then you can put the plunger into a centrifugal device and spin it until it's Klingons are spun off.

I think I already have better tools than that, but the point is we could get to a point where we could have a "drum" of Bennu Stuff that we coudl treat with pyrolysis.  Several things could be achieved with this.

Anyway, if we get the tools to process fuzzball asteroids and can find a way to keep humans and robots functional multiyear beyond Earth, we might really burn rubber, so to speak.

Recently it has been said that the asteroid belt itself has many tiny asteroids.

https://eaps.mit.edu/news-impact/mit-as … main-belt/
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What if some of them are like Bennu?

I have read that 40% of the inner belt is Carbonaceous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
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And similar methods may access the raw materials of Phobos and Deimos, even if they do not as much offer water and Carbon.

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Isaac Arthur has given this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b71w0eTuck
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In the just prior post, the idea of retiring Starships to orbits or other worlds has been suggested.

Elsewhere I have considered a space station made of at least 4 Starships:

Here I have suggested 12 Starships assembled to provide both microgravity and synthetic gravity:

Spinning a drum like the pink ones may tend to cause gyroscopic instability, but the blue ones may stabilize it???

That is my impression.  The blue is more like a torus, and the pink are more like a cylinder.

Some of my ideas are at least partly from other members.

Calliban at one point calculated the number of space habitats that could be made from Bennu.

What is the Mass of Bennu?

https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
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So, that is a million times the dry mass of a Starship, (More or less, approximately).

What is the orbit of Bennu?

https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
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https://www.theweathernetwork.com/en/ne … roid-bennu
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Composition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
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And there are Carbon and Metals also.

So, at some point could a refilling station be established and also a process to make more structure from the materials of Bennu?

Ryugu is even bigger, but may not have as much % of water.

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If necessary (th) I will remove this post.  But something related to space station building has just occurred to me, and I feel it is important.

I think that this video could relate to it:  Depreciation / Amortization: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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SpaceX has recently been flying the center core of Falcon Heavy as a Falcon 9.  They do this for a while until using it in a Falcon Heavy.  This gets some value out of it before it is used in an expended mode.  So, the cost of the center core can be divided against several reuses, prior to its final use.

It has occurred to me that this could be done for Starship as well, the 2nd stage.

We usually say that Starship could be used as reusable, OR expendable.

But as I see it now, it should be used as reusable AND expendable.

If reusability can be achieved, (I think it will), then if you can calculate how many reuses are optimal, then finally you could run it as expendable to orbit and get the maximum value out of it.

Once dedicated to expendable, it would have its flaps and motor removed, and probably it's heat shield, and it would be launched with a current estimation of 250 tons of cargo.  At that point, it and its cargo could be sold to a company like VAST, to for them to convert it to space station structure.

In reality down the line the probable cargo might get up to 300 to 400 tons, I am guessing.

The ship itself can then be refurbished with the cargo materials.  By a company like VAST.

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The ships will face depreciation from wear and tear, but also by obsolescence, where for a time new ships are likely to have better performance than old style ships.  So, that will depreciate their value over time and number of flights.

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Perhaps in time some sort of legless landing method will be provided on other worlds.

Now, for my own amusement I want to play with the Lunar HLS.

This could be the existing plan for it or the Stuby substitute.

I will point out that NASA seems to be thinking short term as always, I am thinking longer term.

It seems almost strange to me that NASA decided to go with converting a Mars ship to work on the Moon.  But that is good as I think prosperous results could become available from it.

Here, although legless landings could be considered eventually for now, I am going to suppose landing legs.

Pause............

I have said before that I am in favor of splitting Lunar HLS into the "Locomotive" and then the Cargo/Cabin section.

It is not logical to land a huge Lunar Starship, HLS on the Moon then launch it, and abandon it in orbit somewhere.

Logical would be to Land it and keep it on the Moon as potential shelter.

But how to get people up off of the Moon?  Well, it you have a Standard or Stubbly Lunar HLS and land it for cargo carry and leave it there that is valuable, but does not get the humans back up to orbit.

But what if you took the "Locomotive" of one and plunked a capsule on to it?  That is get rid of the fairings, of the Cargo/Cabin and plunk a capsule onto it.  Orion or Dragon.

You may leave the Fairings for the Cargo/Cabin somewhere, maybe LEO to have further use.

Orion is heavy but deep space ready.  Dragon is lighter but not alone deep space ready.

Two of the faults of Dragon are radiation protection and insufficient consumables.  But if you have the Locomotive of a Starship with you, I feel that the radiation problem is quite improved.  And you likely have room for more consumables.

Orion: https://www.space.com/5900-orion-apollo … nshot.html
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https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=53283.0
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OK, there is some sloppy "Apple and Orange" factor here I bet, but it seem like for Dragon you could include an extra 14,000 pounds of consumables and radiation protection if needed.

Step #1, launch the Locomotive with Fairings to Orbit, possibly including a capsule on board.

Step #2, dispose of the Fairings or send the to salvage somewhere.

Step #3, fill the Locomotive with propellants.  This should be a significantly reduced amount, I would hope.

Step #4, with humans on board launch to the Moon.

Step #5, land on the Moon directly, next to an already landed Lunar HLS.

Step #6, do to surface missions.

(Ideally): Step #7, refill on the Moon, possibly only LOX.

Step #7, Launch directly to Earth.

Step #8, Separate the Locomotive from the Capsule, and do a Capsule return to Earth.

* I would like a heat shield for the Locomotive so that it could airbrake several times into the Earths atmosphere to be reused, but in early missions it can be abandoned.

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Yes, you can associate this with a Lunar Space Station if you want to, but at additional cost of course.

I make note that Platinum Family Metals may not be at the poles (Or might be), so polar landings might not be the only interest.

With modern recycling water from the Lunar Poles is not as necessary as it might have been in the 70's.  Time to update thinking???

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https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Art … _356285358
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So, you now could make it "Stubby" as per Tim Dodd, and reduce the tank size, maybe even the number of Raptors.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … dc0f2c8c61

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So, this is more of a set of questions, that might have some merit to consider.

If you wanted to bring some Platinum Family Metal samples back this might be a better way.

And if you want to transfer a small crew to and from a polar Moon base it might also be efficient.

Blue Origin's Blue Moon was a bit like this, without the capsule.

https://spacenews.com/blue-origin-unveils-lunar-lander/
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But of course, it would be Metha Lox of the Starship Raptor variety.

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I have had a minimal training in Real Estate.

What we have to look out for is the establishment of claims of guardianship, encumbrances, and similar tricks to establish leverage to demand tribute. 

I actually am very much a fan of the protection of potential Martian life.  But I recognize what tricks the insincere may apply to this situation.

I do not want there to be another 50 years of space age dark ages, where the parasitic white collars drain to life forces of those dedicated to human advancement.  There are certainly white collars that are workers, and extremely useful, but among them are the free riders.

To the free riders we are just the people that should be exploited to allow them to dwell with no accomplishments at the expense of the dedicated.

So, the situation is ambiguous.  We are asked to be extremely moral while they rape us.  Not a thing I care to tolerate.

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So, could this work on other worlds, such as Mars?  https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p234444  Quote:

I understand that likely for human arrivals, you will want landing legs, at least at first.

A tilted landing frame would have to be brought to Mars within a cargo hold, I would expect.

My notion of mass cargo transport after initial setup would be a Starship tuned to Mars, which might make multiple flights up and down, to receive cargo from interplanetary ships that do not land.  This allows for Electric Rocket propulsion as the interplanetary propulsion method.

The wear on the heat shield of the ship would be reduced by coming in from Low Mars Orbit at a slower speed than for arrival from Earth.

The ships could position their metal wall portion towards the "Belly Flop" angled catch tower.  The angle desired can be calculated for best effect, and indeed cushions and possibly air bags could absorb the pressure of the belly flop.  This does not require as powerful of a nose engine as to allow for a horizontal landing.

Distributing the impact to the cushion devices, may allow for a lack of legs as dry mass, and may distribute the force of impact across the belly's larger surface area than the tail end of the ship.

The tanks themselves and the cargo walls, may even do some cushioning as well as they are inflated devices.  There would be some spring-like nature to such tanks.

From the angled catch position, the ship can then be tipped upright to relaunch or with wheels or skids attached, be pulled down the ramp carefully to have a horizontal position.

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This article talks about Vertical and Horizontal landing methods for HLS on the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

I think that in the future, smaller landers such as B.O. product, might be used for Humans.

But the Stubby HLS, would be wonderful to be deployable to the Moon.

The process of landing HLS on legs and then tipping it over to Horizontal has been considered.

If HLS is not to leave the Moon then you have a large propellant budget.  Starship could hover (Unlike Falcon 9), and might ease itself horizontally into a tilted cradle already on the Moon.

That cradle would promote a controlled tipping.  Just for giggles lets say the cradle is 45 degrees, (But could be something else).  The Cradle would have air bags, and landing braces.

The Landing Cradle guides a partial topple.  Cradle #1 is encountered first, and the #2, #3, #4, so four bumps.

When the ship slides down catching hooks lock it to the pipe frame.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0  Image Quote:

So, initially the frame might be attached to a Stubby HLS, and landed with an intentional topple If it weighed only 50 tons, then a counterweight of 50 tons could be put on the other side of the rocket near the base.

Then after that you either remove the rocket from the frame to lay down horizontal, maybe attaching wheels to its tail end and using a wench after disabling the catch hooks, or you refill the ship, and it somehow launches.  Maybe it is put vertical before launching.

Yes, I know that you are paranoid about flinging regolith into orbit, but initially there will be no other structures to harm.  And you might somehow drop a plate to the surface of the Moon prior to this operation.

Anyway after you are set up you can create landing pads, and reuse the landing frame, as if the Stubby HLS goes to orbit, it will not take the landing frame with it.  The landing frame is intended for repeated reuse.

This is just an initial on a napkin display of possible options.

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