Posts by MarsRefresh

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Right it is, it would be better in the Science forum as it surely ain't about unmanned probes
It's helpful to readers to know what the link is about, the subject or just the headline would do. BTW the headline is "Scientists say asteroid could hit Mars" - it's only a 1 in 75 chance according to that article but it would be interesting!

I thought this might be of interest to the terraforming forum too as deflecting asteroids is a popular concept. But I'll edit the post's headline and the mod can move it (no pun intended!).

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

I know this may be a bit too ironic for the "unmanned probe" thread, but check this out:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22350742/

MarsRefresh · Planetary transportation

Dragoneye wrote:

we are almost better off building slightly under the surface

What do you mean by "slightly'? Perhaps the rule of thumb that would guide these roads would be that they are covered and sequestered from the environment.

I will also reveal a prejudice of mine - I am skeptical of robots/automation. With all the variability of soil and bedrock landforms I think a human presence will be continually needed. (Also note my last post on "Trains of Mars".)
I think your idea of an enclosed or even subterranean road/railway is feasible, but it will require a lot of work. I think the elevated train idea would be easier to build and (maybe) easier to maintain. But I think roads will be useful for rover/truck style movement of people.

Let's say we have two bases to connect that lie 10 km apart. What do you think about a raised roadbed? Maybe 10m across and 1 m high? This would likely keep rocks off the road and the fine dust would not necessary be inhibitive although I could see it piling up along the sides.

How could we build this? I like your idea of a metal plated road. How much iron could realistically be smelted from the surrounding regolith and how thin could this layer be?

MarsRefresh · Science, Technology, and Astronomy

Very Cool. I like the potential for using "Mars-style" terraforming for cold regions of Earth with such technology. Thanks for posting this.

MarsRefresh · Life on Mars

Yes, this is an exciting find in many ways. I think Gusev may be a great candidate for the sample return mission. Do we have SHARAD radar returns for Gusev that would reveal anything about these features?

MarsRefresh · Planetary transportation

Ok, but how would we build roads on this site near "Home Plate" :
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … 26R0M1.JPG
Lot's of loose scree in this photo that would certainly blow back across a constructed road surface. A question I have is how big of rocks can a large dust storm move across the surface? If we clear a path of rocks larger than would be returned by the storms, then some progress is made right? Would that be enough for our purposes? I don't see anything in this image that a Jeep couldn't handle. What did Martian Republic mean by

Actually, just grading it and then using the small rocks to make a rock road system would be adequate

?

Curious to see what you think too, Dragoneye.

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

What about large plants? Are there any trees that would be ideal for whatever reason?

The hardiest trees that grow in cold weather include the balsam poplar, subalpine fir, tamarack, and the aspen.

The aspen is interesting as it grows in large colonies that can re-sprout after a large fire or cutting. It grows quickly too.

A few isolated stands of balsam poplar grow north of the Brooks Range in Alaska, and the trees, like the tamarack, can withstand at least -65 C. That's pretty tough. Tamarack Larch can grow on drier and sandy soils than some of these other species. All of them do not do well in shady understories.

Precipitation needed for a boreal forest: 169 mm/year (44 mm additionally were lost to runoff)
(Evaporation from an eastern Siberian larch forest
Agricultural and Forest Meteorology, Volume 85, Issues 3-4, July 1997, Pages 135-147)
That's less than seven inches per year. Let's say we want to grow a boreal forest in a 100 meter dome with an land area 7853 m2.
7853m2 x .169m = 1,327m3 of water per year. 1,000 kg/m3 x 1,327m3 = 1,327,000 kg of water for a year of boreal forest growth.
By comparison, filling an Olympic sized swimming pool would require 2.5 millions kg of water. So a mature boreal forest (the sample of above was from south of Yakutsk) filling a 100m dome would require filling an Olympic pool half way. But this is assuming that the structure is not a closed system. What ever % of water that was recovered from plant respiration would be deducted from this total.[/u]

MarsRefresh · Life support systems

Here is an exciting find by the Spirit Rover:

http://www.universetoday.com/2007/12/13 … more-12214

Zubrin in The Case for Mars noted that although the soil seems to hold a lot of silicon in was mixed with lots of iron that would make it hard to get optical level glass or the ultrapure silicon for solar panels. Then Spirit spins a wheel and discovers a whitish layer of 90% S and this is laced with titanium. Zubrin suggests blasting the silicon with Hydrogen to produce silane and then pumping it away from your impurities (in this case titanium). Then keep the silane (SiH4) as a fuel that burns in CO2 or seperate it with heat and keep the silicon or glass or solar panels or semiconductors. And what would that titanium be used for...

If large quantities are available and glass greenhouses can be constructed on any scale then the thermal weakness of polyethylene could potentially be bypassed.

Edit: I found an intersting thread that addresses many of these issues:
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … 13&start=0

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

That's what I've been looking for, thanks cIclops. I think I can integrate my material there.

Phil

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Here is a chunk of the bibliography of peer-reviewed journals that I'm constructing. This section covers the "Lithosphere". I have other sections such as "Hydrosphere" and "Biosphere" and "Spaceflight" stc.

I'd appreciate any ideas concerning sorting this material. the Big sections(such as Lithosphere) will likely need refinement to make them managable. There are 400 Mars science articles published in 2007 alone. The articles below are alphbetized by year of publication. Currently the list includes only November-December of 2007.

Lithosphere
2008
2007
A description of surface features in north Tyrrhena Terra, Mars: Evidence for extension and lava flooding. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 2, 15 November 2007, Pages 524-544. Graziella Caprarelli, Monica Pondrelli, Stefano Di Lorenzo, Lucia Marinangeli, Gian Gabriele Ori, Ronald Greeley and Gerhard Neukum

Antarctic dry valleys: Microclimate zonation, variable geomorphic processes, and implications for assessing climate change on Mars. Icarus, Volume 192, Issue 1, 1 December 2007, Pages 187-222. David R. Marchant and James W. Head III.

Apparent thermal inertia and the surface heterogeneity of Mars. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 1, 1 November 2007, Pages 68-94. Nathaniel E. Putzig and Michael T. Mellon.

Determination of the wind induced detachment threshold for granular material on Mars using wind tunnel simulations. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 2, 15 November 2007, Pages 568-580. J.P. Merrison, H.P. Gunnlaugsson, P. Nørnberg, A.E. Jensen and K.R. Rasmussen.

Equilibrium rotational stability and figure of Mars. Icarus, Available online 22 November 2007. Amy Daradich, Jerry X. Mitrovica, Isamu Matsuyama, J. Taylor Perron, Michael Manga and Mark A. Richards.

How rapidly did Mars accrete? Uncertainties in the Hf–W timing of core formation. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 2, 15 November 2007, Pages 497-504. F. Nimmo and T. Kleine.

Implications from sulfur isotopes of the Nakhla meteorite for the origin of sulfate on Mars. Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Volume 264, Issues 1-2, 15 December 2007, Pages 1-8. James Farquhar, Sang-Tae Kim and Andrew Masterson.

Instabilities in a fluid layer with phase changes. Physics of The Earth and Planetary Interiors, Volume 165, Issues 3-4, 14 December 2007, Pages 147-157. Paul Roberts, Gerald Schubert, Keke Zhang, X. Liao and Friedrich H. Busse.

Point pattern analysis of north polar crescentic dunes, Mars: A geography of dune self-organization.
Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 1, 1 November 2007, Pages 151-157. Mark A. Bishop.

Polygonal cracks in bedrock on Earth and Mars: Implications for weathering. Icarus, Available online 6 November 2007. Marjorie A. Chan, W. Adolph Yonkee, Dennis I. Netoff, Winston M. Seiler and Richard L. Ford.

Reorientation of planets with lithospheres: The effect of elastic energy. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 2, 15 November 2007, Pages 401-412. Isamu Matsuyama, Francis Nimmo and Jerry X. Mitr.ovica.
Scenarios for the Formation of Chasma Boreale, Mars. Icarus, Available online 4 December 2007
Ralf Greve.

Simulating the development of Martian highland landscapes through the interaction of impact cratering, fluvial erosion, and variable hydrologic forcing. Geomorphology, Volume 91, Issues 3-4, 1 November 2007, Pages 332-363. Alan D. Howard.

The geology of the Viking Lander 2 site revisited. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 2, 15 November 2007, Pages 505-523. Bradley J. Thomson and Peter H. Schultz

The magnitude and albedo of Mars. Icarus, Volume 192, Issue 2, 15 December 2007, Pages 404-416. Anthony Mallama.

The Rio Tinto Mars Analogue site: An extremophilic Raman spectroscopic study. Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular and Biomolecular Spectroscopy, Volume 68, Issue 4, 15 December 2007, Pages 1133-1137. Howell G.M. Edwards, Peter Vandenabeele, Susana E. Jorge-Villar, Elizabeth A. Carter, Fernando Rull Perez and Michael D. Hargreaves.

The shielding effect of small-scale martian surface geometry on ultraviolet flux. Icarus, Volume 192, Issue 2, 15 December 2007, Pages 417-433. J.E. Moores, P.H. Smith, R. Tanner, A.C. Schuerger and K.J. Venkateswaran.

The split fate of the early Earth, Mars, Venus, and Moon. Comptes Rendus Geoscience, Available online 19 November 2007. Francis Albarède and Janne Blichert-Toft.

Thermal behavior of horizontally mixed surfaces on Mars. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 1, 1 November 2007, Pages 52-67. Nathaniel E. Putzig and Michael T. Mellon.

Thermokarst processes and the origin of crater-rim gullies in Utopia and western Elysium Planitia. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 1, 1 November 2007, Pages 95-112. R.J. Soare, J.S. Kargel, G.R. Osinski and F. Costard.
Three decades of slope streak activity on Mars. Icarus, Volume 191, Issue 1, 1 November 2007, Pages 132-140. N. Schorghofer, O. Aharonson, M.F. Gerstell and L. Tatsumi.

MarsRefresh · Meta New Mars

Thanks for the feedback, noosfractal. I think I will spread them out on the site by topic and see whet response there is.

MarsRefresh · Meta New Mars

I certainly can do so, but it is quite long. where should it go? Any ideas? I have articles the cover the whoile of the planet as well as sections related to agriculture, base construction, meteorite impacts, etc.

MarsRefresh · Life support systems

Commodore wrote:

Of course you have to take full advantage of everything that is free. But we can't depend on it either. Remember on the moon we have two weeks with/without the sun, and Mars has dust storms. We have to plan to produce a baseline level of light regardless.

Great point. I have not considered the effect of dust storms on agriculture. I've been doing some research and there seems to be two options. As you suggest, make sure that there is enough electrically produced light to keep plants alive even in the teeth of a dust storm. I have not found a study that clearly analyzes the amount of dust storms or the amount of sunlight that fails to reach the surface. But the depths of the storm that nearly killed off the MERs Spirit and Oppoirtunity seem to have created very dark conditions on the surface:
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070727174944.htm
But I've found that the dust storms arrive after perihelion and the biggest ones that block a lot of light come about 1 or 2 months after.
So the second option would be to farm around these storms. For an equitorial base, the normal amount of illumination should not vary too dramatically from perihelion to aphelion. Knowing that the worst, potentially crop-killing storms come one month after perihelion and that this season lasts around four months total, then an equitorial base would still have 20 of approximately 24 months in the martian year to farm with available sunlight.
So the trade off seems to be, do we install the infrastructure to allow for year-round farming - a definate plus - or do we farm when we can with available sunlight? Assuming nuclear power, then the crops would be planted and grow by diverting power from other base activities. However - and I think this is the best feature of a lighting system - if a dust storms does not come dancing by you get your crops and your power for that four month period.

MarsRefresh · Meta New Mars

Hello,

I am working on compiling a Bibliography of Mars Articles from peer-reviewed journals. It in Word 2007 format. It's currently at 10 pages - and that's just for November and December of 2007. I also have an introduction explaining the layout of the bib with sections. Is there a way that I can make this available and edit/add to it and receive feedback and ideas?

Thanks,

Phil

MarsRefresh · Planetary transportation

I like Larry's idea of elevating the track as drifting dust and rock scree would often, I think, threaten to derail the train. I also like going "up" as it makes use of lower Mars gravity, in that lighter construction would be needed, and much less excavation would be needed. also, the lower gravity will make lifting 5 meter supports physically easier than on earth.
Dragoneye's suggestion of subterranean rail lines would also work, but involve much more excavation. Still there may be places that a short tunnel would save a long loop and therefore be the way to go. But if a train broke down or jumped the track in a relatively narrow underground tunnel it might be quite a job to get it out or moving again.

The great thing about railway construction is that it allows for steady, measured expansion. The first commercial raillines were short - moving coal and ore from the English Uplands to the smelters in Manchester, for instance - but these accumulated capital and allowed access to more iron and coal that then was used to build more railway lines. That's what we want to see on Mars: one line from Base 1 to Mine 1 then the increase in capital, efficiency, raw materials can be used to build a line to Mine/Base 2 (along with lots of other things).

MarsRefresh · Life support systems

I don't see an issue with power shortages, but grow lights do burn out and are fragile. Your going to have to use as much available light as possible.
A Hydroponic greenhouse of the Earth salad bar staples and cereals for man and beast is vital to all our efforts. Nuclear surface, and even transit power is almost a necessity, if not a given already, so our heating and lighting supplements are covered. The biggest remaining issues are bulk scale nutrient creation, and ensuring a clean primary light source.

I quite agree that we go nuclear or we don't go at all. But I think we need to stick with sunlight for crop growth given the power needed. Nuclear power is great, but it has limits. I cannot imagine a successful base without in situ production/capture of gases, water, fuel, plastics, and iron/steel as well as excavation. All of these are power hogs and spending little energy on food production would really help. What do you think?

MarsRefresh · Life support systems

Grypd wrote:

You must remember that the light on Mars is pure unfiltered sunlight and as such is effectively very heavy in the Ultra-voilet range. Though we do have plants with some resistance to this we will have no choice but to filter this light and that will drastically reduce light that could get into a greenhouse.

In Zubrin's The Case For Mars, he suggests using an unpressurized Plexiglas dome on top of a pressurized Kevlar dome (page 177). For a 50 m diameter sphere the Kevlar would weigh 8 tonnes and be only 1 mm thick. The Plexiglas "sheild" would weigh only 4 tonnes, presumably because it would only be a half-sphere in this example. However, when I checked into Plexiglas - http://www.plexiglas.com/acrylicsheet/a … etfamily#9 - it seems that it requires a coating or treatment to reduce the ultraviolet spectra. I have not found out what this treatment is or how it's applied, but the site says that (presumably at terrestrial levels) UV are reduced by 99%. In a Martian setting this coating would be on the inside surface and the untreated surface would face outward, towards the environment. If it remained 99% effective, I don't think we need worry about the plants (or people).

MarsRefresh · Life support systems

Maxie posted a link for an interesting recent radar find in one of the Water threads:

http://space.newscientist.com/article/d … uator.html

In this article two possibilities could explain the radar readings - very loose "unusually porous rocky material" or a vast resevoir of ice. The later possibility would be very exciting and puts the equitorial formation at the top of potential sites for future bases. But the former possibity intrigues me too.

I looked around and did not spot any old threads about excavation on Mars, but such light material could possibly be the best place to dig in and establish large underground quarters.

Obviously there are unknowns: homogenity & composition of the volcanic tuft (if it isn't H2O) for starters. The question that struck me was, "How do you dig mines on Mars?" Obviously the humble, old pick and wheelbarrow option would not likely be practical. What about some kind of suction? Could a miner with a drill loosen the material and then suck it our through long, hard polyethelene tubing? (Can anyone tell i'm not a miner?) How much power might such a system require?

Any thoughts?

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Now, what was I going to say? Oh yes, something about adapting.
The planet warms up. Millions, maybe a billion refugees are made. In all likelyhood that won't happen because people will make live in houseboats, farm the land that exists, use boats instead of cars, do what the Incans (or Aztecs) did and build floating farms. At least the intelligent people will, the ones who would rather spend time surviving and thriving rather than moan about how terrible everything is.
If they don't want to live in boats, oh look, there's vast temprate regions called Canada, Alaska, Russia, Siberia, and Antartica.
I think the planet heating up and flooding would be the best thing that could happen to humanity. Global warmings here and it won't go away. If you want my advice; Buy a houseboat.

I must say that the image of 200 million Bangladeshi's living in houseboats serves as a hilarious reductio ad absurdum arguement against your position. But, of course you mention that only "intelligent" people will be willing to move to Antarctica or the much diminished portion Siberia curently uninhabited. (If Antarctica melts then the Western Siberian lowlands - the flatest land on earth - will be inundated.) Unfortunately, "Intelligent" usually means educated and affluent. Resettling one billion people in the warming regions you have mentioned over, say 50 years, would entail moving 20 million people per year to undeveloped areas. These people would have few possessions and little capital. This would have to occur while ALL of the port facilities of developed nations were slowly overtwhelmed by rising seas. However, although, individually inmpoverished, most of the affected nations have Weapons and ALL of those niceties of civilized existence, such as restraint and moderation would Disappear with the appearance of DESPERATION. Applying Darwinist principles of the survival of the most adaptable to huge human populations is a convenient way to accept the losses such a catastrophe would entail. But I will not accept this. In addition, my own American society stands to blame for much of the warming and a responsible attitude demands that we address the problem.

Terraformer, I've enjoyed your ideas in many other forums, but I think you have not rigorously considered this problem.

Phil

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Very interesting, Rick. Thanks for the info. I'd love to read that Scientific American article, if you have the citation handy. (Or words to search for on Proquest)

I am pouring over Science article Southern Ocean Iron Enrichment Experiment: Carbon Cycling in High- and Lo-Si Waters (2004 Apr 16;304(5669):408-14). Bearing in mind that we must avoid feeding the nasty purple algae, I still think the idea of seeding the ocean might be the best plan. If increasing the volume of dead diatoms would cause widespread Hydrogen Sulfide production, then sequestration may be possible (and potentially useful?). But the masses involved, I suspect may be prohibitive.

I need to crunch some data before I feel confident either way. What keeps me hopeful is the enormous numbers of natural fixing

A 2006 study [16.] suggests that every day, more than a hundred million tons of carbon in the form of CO2 are fixed into organic material by phytoplankton in the euphotic zone and each day a similar amount of this now biological carbon is either grazed by other marine life or sinks to the sea floor as marine snow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Hypothesis
This makes me think that the natural systems at work (though primarily cyclical and homeostatic) are enormous.
The article also notes that the Pinatubo eruption resulted in a measurable increase in O2. I am curious to see what the balance may be.

Phil

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Thanks for the welcome Rxke - you are another of the thoughtful members I've been reading.

Phil

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Hello all,

I just finished a long post about my thoughts on global warming from the perspective of history. I went to Preview, frantically clicked and lost it all. lol
Such is life. I will sum up and add later.

Tom Kalbfus - thanks for the thread

RickSmith- great stuff in a lot of posts. (I've read thousands of posts to see what's on the lip before jumping in.)

I recently read an passionate clarion call for massive changes in our lifestyles by Bill McKibben in National Geographic's lead article (The one Tom Kalbfus cited in the opener) for the October issue. He says that "The price tag for the global transition will be in the trillions of dollars" (p. 33). He also advocates sweeping lifestyle changes and habits and rounds it out with:

"Are we ready to change, in dramatic and prolonged ways, in order to offer a workable future to subsequent generations and diverse forms of life? If we are, new technologies and habits offer some promise. But only if we move quickly and decisively - and with a maturity we've rarely shown as a society or species. It's our coming-of-age moment, and there are no certaibties or guarantees. Only a window of possibility, closing fast but still ajar enough to let in some hope."

This article really bugged. me. As I related in my Lost Post, as a historian I had doubted the causes of global warming, having seen strong fluctuations in the historical record over the last thousand years but before the 2nd Industrial Revolution of the late 19th century began spewing out carbon in record quantities. However, I've been following the idea of solar fluctuations ans sun spot cycles off and on for a bit. But most of the research indicates that the suns recent variability would have little impact on climate. See this for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation

But after seeing "An Inconvenient Truth" last week, I accepted Gore's dramatic visuals of human caused global warming. But I also remembered a phrase from an article that I read in high school, the phrase "Give me a freighter full of iron and I'll give you an Ice Age." I looked it up and it relates to the John Martin's Iron Hypothesis:

It radically alters the debate about global warming and the serious carbon problem.
I think it speaks for itself:

http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/iron.htm

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Hypothesis

Hope to here everyone's perspectives. I think the environmental platform retains a lot of merit, but enough for now.

Phil

MarsRefresh · Terraformation

Hello all,

I am a brand new member and this is my first post. Thought I would jump into the fray here.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 Re: Terraformation » Asteroid has a chance to strike Mars » 2007-12-21 12:08:39

#27 Re: Terraformation » Asteroid has a chance to strike Mars » 2007-12-20 23:34:11

#28 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-20 22:42:24

#29 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Toshiba Builds 100x Smaller Micro Nuclear Reactor » 2007-12-20 20:16:53

#30 Re: Life on Mars » MER Spirit finds niche for life » 2007-12-20 17:43:14

#31 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-20 09:53:24

#32 Re: Terraformation » Plants that are useful for colonization & terraforming » 2007-12-18 16:25:04

#33 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2007-12-13 23:44:54

#34 Re: Terraformation » Bibliography » 2007-12-09 10:39:31

#35 Re: Terraformation » Bibliography » 2007-12-08 12:02:44

#36 Re: Meta New Mars » New Message Board Software » 2007-12-08 11:39:48

#37 Re: Meta New Mars » New Message Board Software » 2007-12-08 01:58:27

#38 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2007-12-08 00:18:19

#39 Re: Meta New Mars » New Message Board Software » 2007-12-07 23:37:33

#40 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2007-12-05 17:15:55

#41 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2007-12-03 18:43:27

#42 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2007-12-03 18:29:11

#43 Re: Life support systems » Tunneling on Mars » 2007-11-30 22:39:09

#44 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming techniques to combat global warming » 2007-11-25 14:07:23

#45 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming techniques to combat global warming » 2007-11-20 19:41:24

#46 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming techniques to combat global warming » 2007-11-20 01:17:53

#47 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming techniques to combat global warming » 2007-11-20 01:15:07

#48 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming techniques to combat global warming » 2007-11-20 01:01:27

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