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Watch your step Oppy. It looks steeeeep!
Here are some pictures from the Lunokhod missions;
Oldie but Goodie;
Have you seen this Lunar Rover?
I want to see permanent bases on the Moon and Mars. Does it really have to be an either/or?
If I could set the goals for NASA (and make them stick to them) here is what I would do.
Goal #1: Study the asteroids. This goal has 2 parts;
Part 1: Study the Asteroids for their resource potential. Also tacked on to this goal is to study and develop machines for mining and processing the asteroids resources. These machines could also be modified for the Moon and Mars.
Part 2: Study the asteroid for ways to move them out of harms way. I prefer potential hazardous asteroids be mined until there is nothing left to be a hazard.
Goal #2: Set up a space station that acts as a way-station between the Earth and NEA’s, Moon & Mars.
Goal #3: Study the Moon for potential resources and how to mine them and process them.
Goal #4: Depending on the results of the Moon and NEA’s resources and how to mine and process them, build a space base industry for using space based resource to build ships, probes, or whatever we need up there. This could be located in LEO, on the Moon or in orbit around the Moon.
Goal #5: Continue to study Mars for human habitation.
Goal #6: Used the information, technology and space based industry to get humans to Mars to stay.
NASA’s main goal should be devolving a space bases infrastructure that utilizes as much space base resources as possible. I call this the Living-off-the-land goal.
Here is a mosaic icluding the picture I linked in the above post;
Is that a cross section of a "Blueberry" at the lower left portion of this picture- right below the crack?
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … ...M1.HTML
You can see a faint outline of a circle. If this is a blueberry, it is the first one I have seen that shares the same dark hue as its parent rock.
Here is a great Science Fiction story/song/poem from Rush (One of my alltime favorite groups.)
2112
"I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon. City and sky become one, merging into a single plane, a vast sea of unbroken grey. The Twin Moons, just two pale orbs as they trace their way across the steely sky. I used to think I had a pretty good life here, just plugging into my machine for the day, then watching Templevision or reading a Temple Paper in the evening.
"My friend Jon always said it was nicer here than under the atmospheric domes of the Outer Planets. We have had peace since 2062, when the surviving planets were banded together under the Red Star of the Solar Federation. The less fortunate gave us a few new moons.
I believed what I was told. I thought it was a good life, I thought I was happy. Then I found something that changed it all..."
I. Overture
And the meek shall inherit the earth...
II. Temples of Syrinx
... "The massive grey walls of the Temples rise from the heart of every Federation city. I have always been awed by them, to think that every single facet of every life is regulated and directed from within! Our books, our music, our work and play are all looked after by the benevolent wisdom of the priests..."
We've taken care of everything
The words you hear, the songs you sing
The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes.
It's one for all and all for one
We work together, common sons
Never need to wonder how or why.
We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls.
We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life are held within our walls.
Look around at this world we've made
Equality our stock in trade
Come and join the Brotherhood of Man
Oh, what a nice, contented world
Let the banners be unfurled
Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand.
We are the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls.
We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life are held within our walls.
III. Discovery
... "Behind my beloved waterfall, in the little room that was hidden beneath the cave, I found it. I brushed away the dust of the years, and picked it up, holding it reverently in my hands. I had no idea what it might be, but it was beautiful" ...
... "I learned to lay my fingers across the wires, and to turn the keys to make them sound differently. As I struck the wires with my other hand, I produced my first harmonious sounds, and soon my own music! How different it could be from the music of the Temples! I can't wait to tell the priests about it! ..."
What can this strange device be?
When I touch it, it gives forth a sound
It's got wires that vibrate and give music
What can this thing be that I found?
See how it sings like a sad heart
And joyously screams out its pain
Sounds that build high like a mountain
Or notes that fall gently like rain.
I can't wait to share this new wonder
The people will all see its light
Let them all make their own music
The Priests praise my name on this night.
IV. Presentation
... "In the sudden silence as I finished playing, I looked up to a circle of grim, expressionless faces. Father Brown rose to his feet, and his somnolent voice echoed throughout the silent Temple Hall." ...
... "Instead of the grateful joy that I expected, they were words of quiet rejection! Instead of praise, sullen dismissal. I watched in shock and horror as Father Brown ground my precious instrument to splinters beneath his feet..."
I know it's most unusual
To come before you so
But I've found an ancient miracle
I thought that you should know
Listen to my music
And hear what it can do
There's something here as strong as life
I know that it will reach you.
Yes, we know, it's nothing new
It's just a waste of time
We have no need for ancient ways
The world is doing fine
Another toy will help destroy
The elder race of man
Forget about your silly whim
It doesn't fit the plan.
I can't believe you're saying
These things just can't be true
Our world could use this beauty
Just think what we might do.
Listen to my music
And hear what it can do
There's something here as strong as life
I know that it will reach you.
Don't annoy us further!
We have our work to do.
Just think about the average
What use have they for you?
Another toy will help destroy
The elder race of man
Forget about your silly whim
It doesn't fit the Plan!
V. Oracle: The Dream
... "I guess it was a dream, but even now it all seems so vivid to me. Clearly yet I see the beckoning hand of the oracle as he stood at the summit of the staircase" ...
... "I see still the incredible beauty of the sculptured cities and the pure spirit of man revealed in the lives and works of this world. I was overwhelmed by both wonder and understanding as I saw a completely different way to life, a way that had been crushed by the Federation long ago. I saw now how meaningless life had become with the loss of all these things ..."
I wandered home though the silent streets
And fell into a fitful sleep
Escape to realms beyond the night
Dream can't you show me the light?
I stand atop a spiral stair
An oracle confronts me there
He leads me on light years away
Through astral nights, galactic days
I see the works of gifted hands
That grace this strange and wondrous land
I see the hand of man arise
With hungry mind and open eyes
They left the planet long ago
The elder race still learn and grow
Their power grows with purpose strong
To claim the home where they belong
Home to tear the Temples down...
Home to change!
VI. Soliloquy
... "I have not left this cave for days now, it has become my last refuge in my total despair. I have only the music of the waterfall to comfort me now. I can no longer live under the control of the Federation, but there is no other place to go. My last hope is that with my death I may pass into the world of my dream, and know peace at last."
The sleep is still in my eyes
The dream is still in my head
I heave a sigh and sadly smile
And lie a while in bed
I wish that it might come to pass
Not fade like all my dreams...
Just think of what my life might be
In a world like I have seen!
I don't think I can carry on
Carry on this cold and empty life
My spirits are low in the depths of despair
My lifeblood...
...spills over...
VII. The Grand Finale
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
We have assumed control.
We have assumed control.
We have assumed control.
According to an article I read in Astronomy Magazine, the Moon could hold onto an atmosphere for over a 100,000 years.
Whoever put it there could certainly keep it replenished.
On the Earth, Lightning can produce root like fusions of soil. If such things formed on Mars and could survive impacts, there might still be a few.
What are y’alls thoughts on life evolving on cold worlds that have and active methane cycle. Places similar to Titan, where methane exists as a solid liquid or vapor.
The worlds these aliens live on could planets far from their parent star, or large moons around Gas Giants. From orbit, they might even be blue worlds that have an Earth-like appearance from orbit and on the surface. Imagine a world with clouds, Ice capes, rivers, lakes and oceans of methane.
What would methane based life be like on such a cold world? I picture them being slow, long lived, fragile creature. If you were a visiting astronaut, your ship might melt any landing pad they had. Heat leaking from your suit could melt anyone of them near you, so you would have to check heat leaks. If your glove came off, your body heat from your hand would kill any of them near your (And your hand would instantly freeze).
What kind of technology would such creatures create? I doubt they could even melt metals. Perhaps they could find ways of creating technology with various ices and other volatiles.
Liquid water would be lava to them. Solid water would be like stone or steel.
Perhaps they could build ships out of water-ice, but they could never explorer their inner Planetary System. Escape velocity from their world my be low enough that some kind of chemical reaction thrust from their volatile elements might get them in orbit. Terrestrial planets would be out of their reach, for their star would melt their ships like a passing comet.
Their buildings might be made of water-ice. Perhaps they would find a cold, chemical way to produce light for their buildings.
Iron meteorites would be valuable (Rare), and probably enigmatic to them.
LOL!
When it comes to music, I like all types. I still like Disco, but may favorite music is Jazz. I like (Glup! I can't believe I am saying classic) Classic Rock, Country, Some Classical, and even some blues. I also like the 1980's techno stuff, whatever it is called (I called it 80's Disco). I even like some Heavy Metal. I don't care much for Rap. Hip-hop it is called.
I am reminded of the episode of the Simpson’s where a young Homer is confronted by his dad while listing to rock music.
Homer tells his dad his is with it.
His dad says, “I was with it once, then it changed. Now what’s it is scary and confusing. It will happen to you.”
Xanadu. I have not seen it in over a decade, at least.
I loved the line where Olivia (who plays a Muse) Said, “I’m a Muse,” and the guy (Tommy?) said, “I am glad one of us is (amused),” or something like that. Okay, so you had to watch the scene.
The 1970’s. I remember them well. In 1976 we got the bicentennial quarters and we painted the fire hydrants red, white and blue. Star War came out the following year.
In the 1980's I was a closet Disco fan (Try liking Disco in Texas)
ELO, they were, like, the first nerd band. They were ahead of their time so not too many in the mainstream connected with them.
I love their stuff.
I heard their stuff on the radio in the 1970's, but I really didn’t get into their music until the movie Xanado came out (Okay, so I had this crush on Olivia Newton John, back in the 1970’s) ELO several songs for that movie. I bought the LP record (these large black disk made of vinyl- sort of like CD’s). A friend of mine had their Time album on 8-track(I won’t even explain those things).
Get their album Time.
Here is the opening song and third song from that album;
"Prologue"
Just on the border of your waking mind
There lies... Another time
Where darkness & light are one
And as you tread the halls of sanity
You feel so glad to be
Unable to go beyond
I have a message
From another time...
"Yours Truly, 2095"
2095, 2095, 2095, 2095
I love you, sincerely
Yours truly, yours truly...
I sent a message to another time
But as the days unwind, this I just can't believe
I sent a note across another plane
Maybe it's all a game, but this I just can't conceive.
Can you hear me?
I drive the very latest hovercar
I don't know where you are
But I miss you so much till then
I met someone who looks a lot like you
She does the things you do
But she is an IBM.
2095, 2095, 2095, 2095
I love you, sincerely
Yours truly, yours truly...
She's only programmed to be very nice
But she's as cold as ice
Whenever I get too near
She tells me that she likes me very much
But when I try to touch
She makes it all too clear.
She is the latest in technology
Almost mythology
But she has a heart stone
She has an I.Q. of 1001
She has a jumpsuit on
And she's also a telephone.
2095, 2095, 2095, 2095
I love you, sincerely
Yours truly, yours truly...
Is that what you want? (Is it what you want?)
Is it what you really want? (Is it what you really want?)
Is that what you want? (Is it what you want?)
Is it what you really want?
I realize that it must seem so strange
That time has rearranged
But time has the final word
She knows I think of you, she reads my mind
She tries to be unkind
She knows nothing of our world
Although her memory banks overflow
No one would ever know
For all she says: "Is that what you want?"
Maybe one day I'll feel her cold embrace
And kiss her interface
'Til then, I'll leave her alone.
I love you, sincerely
Yours truly, yours truly...
"Is that what you want?"
One more from ELO. This song was way ahead of its time.
"Ticket To The Moon"
Remember the good old 1980s?
When things were so uncomplicated?
I wish I could go back there again
And everything could be the same.
I've got a ticket to the moon
I'll be leaving here any day soon
Yeah, I've got a ticket to the moon
But I'd rather see the sunrise in your eyes.
Got a ticket to the moon
I'll be rising high above the earth so soon
And the tears I cry might turn into the rain
That gently falls upon your window
You'll never know.
CHORUS:
Ticket to the moon (ticket to the moon)
Ticket to the moon (ticket to the moon)
Ticket to the moon (ticket to the moon).
Fly, fly through a troubled sky
Up to a new world shining bright, oh, oh.
Flying high above
Soaring madly through the mysteries that come
Wondering sadly if the ways that led me here
Could turn around and I would see you there
Standing there (and I would see you there, waiting...)
Ticket to the moon
Flight leaves here today from Satellite Two
As the minutes go by, what should I do?
I paid the fare, what more can I say?
It's just one way (only one way)...
Here is an oldie but goodie;
ELECTRIC LIGHT ORCHESTRA
"21st Century Man"
A penny in your pocket
Suitcase in your hand
They won't get you very far
Now you're a 21st century man.
Fly across the city
Rise above the land
You can do 'most anything
Now you're a 21st century man.
Though you ride on the wheels of tomorrow
You still wander the fields of your sorrow
What will it bring?
One day you're a hero
Next day you're a clown
There's nothing that is in between
Now you're a 21st century man.
You should be so happy
You should be so glad
So why are you so lonely
You 21st century man?
You stepped out of a dream
Believing everything was gone
Return with what you've learned
They'll kiss the ground you walk upon.
Things ain't how you thought they were
Nothing have you planned
So pick up your penny and your suitcase
You're not a 21st century man.
Though you ride on the wheels of tomorrow
You still wander the fields of your sorrow
Tomorrow, 21st century man
21st century man
21st century man...
Here is some good information on meanders;
http://www.oxbowriver.com/Web_Pages/Str … ...al.html
Those meandering channels in that MOC picture look recent.
But if God resides in another universe of sorts, it still falls under the realm of science as other universes are still physical phenomena that can be systematically analyzed and understood.
Maybe. Anything is possible.
The sky is the limit?
Suppose God does reside in this other place (Universe? Dimension? Some place we can not comprehend) that exist outside our own physical universe. Could we detect it? Could we cross over? Would God let us?
I saw a story about ghost hunters on TV a couple of years ago. They seemed serious and they claimed they could detect spirits with electromagnetic detectors. A search of the Internet shows they have been very serious about this.
Lets suppose that these guys are not bonkers and are onto something. That would mean that our universe, and the one the spirits reside in (where they have a physical form made of what we would call matter) share electromagnetic field in some way.
Maybe share is not the word. Let’s say we can detect electromagnetic fields coming from their universe (These electromagnetic fields may exist as something else in their universe, and just happened to be converted to electromagnetic radiation when it gets to our universe- Our physical laws change it to electromagnetic radiation from whatever it was in their universe. Kind of like taking an analog wave and converting it to a digital wave.)
Anyway, say we can actual detect something from that universe. That might open up science, our science, into that universe (I say universe, but I think this place is larger and different from our universe since it was there before our universe was). That could be huge if proven true.
Which implies that we have the potential to achieve godhood ourselves
(I am trying the quote button) Quote from Cobra.
Only in our Physical Universe.
We too can become masters of the physical laws that govern our universe. Outside our universe…that is another story. That is God’s realm IMO, and we can’t even comprehend it, much less control it.
Religion has a purpose separate from science. Faith, for example, is one of its purposes IMO.
I like this idea. I am glad to see research being done on this.
Such technology and knowledge could help in other areas, like terraforming.
Cindy, you mentioned miracles. Here is my take on them. First, if you accept that God created this physical universe and all the physical laws that govern it, then its reasonable to assume he can control our matter and the laws that govern it.
That said, I can see how God could perform the miracle of the Bible and not violate the physical laws of the Universe. What he needs to do this is molecular control- the ability to control atoms and the ability to see the atoms that make up an object (an atomic map if you like). This is actually similar to the transporter and replicate concept of Star Trek.
For Jesus to take a few fish and turn it into many, all God needed to do was, using the atomic map of one fish, make copies using atoms found in the soil. I am not saying that is how it was done, I am saying that is a possible way it was done. Us humans could do this if we could map every atom in the fish and had the ability to build things atom by atom.
To bring a dead person back to life, just put their atoms back they way they were before the person died (I am surprised they never did this idea on Star Trek using the transporters).
To make a blind person see again, using the atomic map of a person’s eyes who can see, fix the blinds persons eye to match.
To get Jesus to walk on water, God might have had to play with some of the physical laws, like make the bonds between the water molecules stronger, or create some sort of anti-gravity field, if possible.
Anyway, the most of the miracles done in the Bible could be done without violating the Physical laws of our Universe.
In Charlie Brown's Halloween Special, Linus gives some good advice. His sister, Lucy, threatens to pound him for making her family the laughing stock of the neighborhood with his Great Pumpkin talk. Linus tells Charley Brown something like this;
There are three things I have learned not to discuss in public. Religion, Politics and the Great Pumpkin.
I have found that talking about Religion and Politics can also get you pounded. I try to avoid those two topics. People are usually set in their ways with those topics, and no amount of arguing will change most people’s minds. Most folks on this site seem to have an open mind, so I think it is safe to talk some religion.
And I apologize about putting the link for the large picture. I meant to put the MOC page that link came from like I did with the previous picture. When Dealing with MOC pictures, I don't like to post the full size image.
I don’t know where God came from before he made this universe (this is accepting that he made the universe). I can speculate about that and his purpose for creating the universe, but there is no way I can know.
Our Physical universe had a beginning and has an ending point. What became before our physical universe? What will come after? Is there more to it then this matter we are made of and the laws that govern it.
I started off a Christian, but quiet young, the scientist in me had many unanswered questions. My folks took me to church on and off. My dad has never been very religious.
In college, I turned agnostic and came very close to being an athiest. After college, I started looking towards God Again, but I just couldn’t see how there could be life after death.
Then I had an experience with the Supernatural. I don’t blame anyone who doesn’t believe me – I certainly never believed such stories before. I was visited (Some might say haunted) by my dead grandmother for two weeks after she died (Until we buried her). I still have a hard time believing it. I not only felt her presence, but my wife and I saw her move objects. She even wound up lamb that plays a song. We heard it being winded up and then it started playing. My son, who was two at the time was asleep in his crib- the lamb was up on a shelf across the room., At that same time my 2 year old son also talked to her. Other things happened as well.
I don’t blame anyone if they don’t believe me about this, I know I wouldn’t, but that is what happened. I hope I don't get shunned as a crazy person for saying this stuff.
That was three years ago.
Needless to say, it blew away my scientific mind. It was then that I realized there had to be more to our existence than this physical universe we live in. I also realized that if one assumes God created our universe with all its physical laws, then he should be able to control it. All of the miracles in the Bible could have been performed by molecular control.
From the sub-atomic particles, to the clusters of Galaxies, when I look at the physical laws that govern our universe, I see God’s handywork. When I look at the periodic table of elements I see order, not because scientist arranged it that way, but because that is how matter works. And the way matter works together to build star, planets and life is brilliant.
I think that God created our Universe, with all its physical laws, with the Big Bang. He set it into motion knowing that beings like us humans would evolve. I believe his purpose is to create intelligent beings they have evolved following his natural laws. This means there could be aliens elsewhere in the universe. I can go into it deeper, if you like.
Now I have violated my Linus law- don’t talk about religion, politics or the Great Pumpkin.
Let me add this;
Science deals with energy/matter and the physical laws that govern it. (Note. Matter can be converted to energy and theoretically energy can be converted into matter. They are connected somehow, but that is another topic)
If there is a place outside our universe that is made of something else and follows some other physical laws, our science might not apply to it, nor would we be able to detect it.
Lets say the Heaven is really a physical place that exist outside our universe. By outside, I mean our physical laws and/or location. (It might occupy the same space as us). Say this place has matter and physical laws that mirrors or own, but not quiet. For example, a photon from this universe varies just enough, that our eyes have now way of seeing it. The laws that govern this matter is different enough that we can not see it or detect it. I might actually pass through our matter.
The point I am trying to make is that it is possible that something may exist beyond our physical universe. Inside our physical universe, our science does an excellent job exposing the physical laws that govern us, but not so outside.
If one excepts that a supreme being built our universe, using the Big Bang or some other method, then one must except that that being existed before our universe was created and that this being existed somewhere else other than our universe(Because, obviously, our universe was not here).
Science seeks knowledge and truth about our physical universe. Religion is different. But a person can believe in both, but for that to work, both religion and science need to have an open mind. Science needs to seek the truth. Personal egos of scientist must not get in the way. Too many times a scientist life work turns out to be wrong, but they have too much at stake to let it go and start a new theory. Religion can let egos get in the way. Religion can be closed minded to new ideas. Both sides must keep an open mind.
I liked the report.
The thing about Mars is that humans can live there now. Terraformation will only make life easier on Mars and there are several levels of Terraformation from getting plants to grow and water to flow, to getting a breathable atmosphere.
Terraforming Mars is a more attainable goal, IMO, than Venus- with our current technology.
But for some reason I am drawn to Venus. Mars can become a good home for Earth life. It has the potential to be very near Earth-like, but Venus has the potential to be a copy of the Earth. Venus is also close to the Earth. A trip there would be short compared to going to Mars. Venus has a lot to work with. I want to see Venus terraformed.
In conclusion, I think Humans will settle Mars and terraform Mars first. What we learn terraforming Mars will help us take on Venus. What we learn from Venus will help us keep Earth habitable.