New Mars Forums

Louis,

I have two new items for your consideration, as you plan your book on Sagan City.

First, from National Geographic for February 2018, from an interview of Michael Bloomberg (former mayor of New York)

Begin Quotation:
SG: (question about gentrification)?
MB: I've always thought that culture attracts capital more than capital attracts culture.
End Quotation.

The thought I would invite you to pursue is to concentrate on defining the culture you want to see, and let details about hardware and supplies of various kinds to others better suited for those tasks.  You appear to have given up on inspiring others to build a real city on Mars, but you appear to have the flexibility of thought that would enable you flex in that direction.

You have already started defining the culture, of course, but your production to date appears to be more of an outline than detailed specifications.

Second, from a the same issue, from an article on CCTV surveiliance by Robert Draper:

Begin Quotation:
London authorities were early adopters of widespread closed-circuit television (CCTV) surveiliance ...
End Quotation.

The article discusses video surveiliance in cities around the world, and considers the differences between authoritarian states and ones which aspire to democracy or at least a semblance of democracy.

It seems to me that as a designer of a new high technology city, it would make sense to build in a high level of surveiliance from the outset, since it will most certainly arrive with commercial interests.

(th)

Hi Louis,

My objective is to try to find conditions which will increase the probability of Sagan City coming into existence.

Your proposal that there should be TWO Sagan City initiatives would (in my opinion) reduce the probability instead of increase it.

At the moment, there exists only one initiative, and that is yours. 

Your uncertainty about location is an example of increase of uncertainty for the future of Sagan City.  You made a decision for a precise location, and at that moment the probability of a bright future for Sagan City was as great as it has been, because it now appears what I understood to be a decision about the boundaries of the city turns out to have been a misreading of your intent.  I was hoping you would make a firm decision, so I read into your words something that was not there.

***

Regarding UN membership versus a concept of planetary independence ... I think that securing UN membership for the planet, in the form of a "nation", would increase chances of an amicable relationship with the residents of Earth, and the idea of setting up an independent entity from the outset will just about guarantee a war.  The examples of Canada and the United States seem instructive (to me at least). 

Both were created or established as extensions of the British empire of the time.  One chose independence and got two wars.  One chose to evolve with the British empire as inevitable change occurred, and it now functions as an independent nation without having had to endure a war.

The model I see from this is that an amicable relationship built from the start will have a greater chance of evolving into a friendly independence over time.

(th)

For Void:

I thought of you and your water pipes under the surface of Mars, when I heard this story today:
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/05/60862256 … rnia-waves

It is not out of the question for an entertainment venue similar to this to exist on Mars, assuming a water rich solar object comes by within collection range.  The waves created by the machinery in the lesser gravity of Mars would (presumably) attract surfers from around the Solar System.

(th)

Hi Louis,

I am pulling this small section of your longer post which begins with discussion of the Viking I site.

Would you agree that you DID come up with the name of the proposed city?
Would you agree that you published the name on the NewMars forum?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify a location of the proposed city on the surface of Mars?
Would you agree that you agreed to specify dimensions (boundaries) for Sagan City?

I accept that you have stated repeatedly that you do not want to serve as "leader" or "mayor" of Sagan City, and now I am wondering if you do not wish to be recognized as "founder"  of Sagan City.  Your description of the city as fictional signals (to me at least) that you do not believe the city can come into being in actuality, and that it will remain forever a science fiction fantasy shared with readers of the NewMars forum, soon to fade into the oblivion from which SpaceNut occasionally rescues topics he considers worthy of another look.

(th)

Louis,

I have updated Post #21 to show the area and boundaries you have defined.

Please note that for simplicity of reference for future inquiries, I have selected the Viking I landing site as the center of the circle.

Please advise if this is not acceptable.

My objective is to remove ambiguity from decisions made to bring Sagan City into existence.

***
I'd like to move on to another focus .... now that you have chosen a site and a set of boundaries for the city, will you agree to allow others to develop concepts on the surface of Mars without interference from you?

You have reserved Pi * 100 Kilometers square kilometers for your proposed city.  That is an area large enough to hold millions of people in time.

If you accept my suggestion, you will accept that others can develop other areas on Mars without interference from you.

It is to be expected that the economic needs of the people of Sagan City will inspire others outside the City to supply those needs.

Examples are power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services.

I am picking up from your vision the impression that Sagan City itself would become a cultural center with living facilities attractive to visitors from elsewhere n Mars and from elsewhere in the Solar System.

If you agree to this proposal, you will free up opportunities for others to concentrate on the delivery of products and services needed by residents of the City itself.

Reminder: to reach Post #21 above, you can search for SearchTerm: and :SaganCityAttributesOf with Author tahanson43206

(th)

Hi Louis,

Thanks for taking up the boundaries issue, along with several other topics active in this series.

I am happy to see the discussion of how to deal with religion continuing.  In my opinion there is a way to go before the vision for Sagan City is satisfying or at least acceptable to the majority of potential residents. 

However, I would like to keep focus on boundaries for the city, because I have not yet succeeded in persuading you of the importance of defining them.

Closely related to the issue of boundaries is the larger issue of Rule of Law and its cousin, Property Rights, and the related issue of Free Enterprise.

It is entirely possible you have already assured your audience of your support of these fundamental concepts, and that I have just overlooked it.

Boundaries for Sagan City are essential for establishing at the outset that Property Rights are recognized by the Founder. 

At this point, it seems to me that you are (accidentally of course) encouraging a free-for-all in which the rich and powerful take everything they want when they want it.

No doubt I am misinterpreting your intention.

(th)

Hi Louis,

Thanks for both those links ... the first did not come up (timed out) but the second did, and I pulled down the pdf policy document.

That is too much to read right now, but I'm interested in taking a closer look in the new future.

In the mean time, I note that you have been setting down elements that might become part of "Louis's Planetary Protection Policy"

The prohibition against religion is interesting but (to my mind impractical) my guess is that human beings invent or adopt religion as a basic need.

My interpretation is that religions are software for neural networks.  They've evolved with human brains, and (I suspect) will continue to evolve as human beings gain better understanding of the Universe.  An attempt to ban religion is (to my way of thinking) equivalent to banning human beings.

Your vision may include concepts that are designed to limit conflict between individuals or groups, but I've not yet had time to study your recent flow of articles in order to know.

In the mean time, I'd like to remind you that what exists today at the United Nations is subject to change, and you are in a position (as a UK citizen) to attempt to bring about beneficial change through your official representative to the UN.

With so much going on right now in the UK, the good lady might appreciate a change of pace ... something else to think about.

(th)

Louis,

Thanks for continuing development of your vision for Sagan City.

A city is a social construct.  A vision is a significant framework upon which humans can build.

I am pulling one small section from your 2036 article to invite your consideration of action you can take now to improve probability that your vision will be realized.  The permanent representative to the United Nations from Great Britain is Dame karen Pierce, according to sources collected by Mr. Google.

I'm hoping to encourage you to contact Dame Pierce to invite her to support an initiative to recognize Mars as an Antarctic style conflict free zone. My opinion is your mention of UN recognition of Mars is about 18 years too late.  Conflict is inevitable when great human powers are butting heads, but the Antarctic example shows that "civilized" behavior is possible. 

Earlier, you have demurred from selecting borders for Sagan City.  This is an oversight you may wish to correct, as you prepare for your conversation with representatives of Dame Pierce's office.  No human being is going to take seriously a claim to founding of a city if borders are not clearly defined.

You are off to a terrific start by selecting a location for the City Center.

Things are in a state of such flux here in the States, I am doubtful this is a good time for a contact along these lines with the office of the UN Ambassador from the US.  On the other hand, if a contact from a US resident in support of your initiative would be worth trying, I'm willing to make the attempt.

Begin Quotation:
Karen Pierce - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Pierce
Dame Karen Elizabeth Pierce, DCMG (born 23 September 1959) is a British diplomat who is the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations.
Career · Offices held
End Quotation.

(th)

Louis,

Some years ago now, a local robotics competition for high school students included a challenge to sweep dust off solar panels.  I have noticed the absence of robots on Mars to perform that function.  That's not a criticism of course, because the missions currently on Mars have been scrubbed of non-essential functionality.  However, the next generation might well include robots dedicated to maintenance of solar panel arrays.  A potentially useful cleaning method would be jets of atmosphere across the panels, to try to reduce abrasion of the surface of the panels.

Edit: If a private enterprise were looking for a project, to test a solar panel cleaning robot, here is a suggestion:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/mission/statu … tyAll.html

(th)

Louis,

Here is some local talent you might be able to recruit for a Sagan City project of some kind:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/27-year … mazon.html

(th)

kbd512 .... This is offered as a brief counterpoint. For your presentation on one view of "magical thinking" there are few who will surpass it.

However, after thinking about the point of view you are so effectively supporting, I decided to remind readers that this concept in English has more than one interpretation.  English (and probably all languages) has the multiple interpretation option built in as a feature.

"Magical Thinking" is what Einstein was doing when he imagined flying along with a light beam.

"Magical Thinking" is what the PhD's and undergraduates are doing when they try to think of a way to confirm the validity of String Theory with observations.

The interpretation I am offering, as distinct from your perfectly valid one, is that "Magical Thinking" is indistinguishable from "Creative Thinking".

I would argue that ALL scientific progress has come about as a result of a combination of observation of the natural world and creative thinking, which (I argue) was indistinguishable from "magical thinking" at the time it occurred.

Your presentation (while most assuredly valid) has the unfortunate effect of casting a wet blanket of implied criticism over the field of creative thinking.

The vision of humans living on Mars, most recently articulated by Louis in this forum, is going to come about through vast amounts of creative thinking, harnessed and guided by knowledge of the understood universe. 

While I agree that Louis does appear to engage in magical thinking from time to time, of the kind that you point out correctly does not match the understood universe, I find in Louis' imaginings inspiration for renewed effort to help him realize those parts of his vision which can be guided to match reality.

(th)