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#1 Re: Human missions » Post central for information on CEV 2 - ...continue here. » 2004-10-31 20:46:19

What is the range of the SRB recovery vessels?
would this mean landing the CEV within the range of the SRB ships?
and ballistic reentry from the moon was done in equatorial regions of the ocean I believe?
MSC ships are world wide in range and are positioned(forward deployed at all times)
an emergency CEV ballistic reentry could be anywhere from ISS.

#3 Re: Human missions » Delta IV Heavy and Beyond » 2004-10-31 19:00:53

This is a really a great thread................
some questions,
(A) the trade on costs of employment and infrastruture on the shuttle C idea.If moon direct used shuttle C for cargo only what percentage of the launch costs in the work force would we need?Ditto the work force needed for man rated heavy EELV?
(B)EELV and the trade of mass production of launch vehicle componants with the need of alot of earth orbit  Rendezvous.
IE one failure means your earth orbit stack is in trouble?

#4 Re: Human missions » Post central for information on CEV 2 - ...continue here. » 2004-10-31 17:38:36

Decades ago we used large navy ships with huge crews (aircraft carriers) to recover human crewed space craft at sea. In wartime and duo to costs it would be hard to see this as a cost effective way to recover a ballistic reentry CEV.
However the navy does have a large fleet of civil service and contract crewed public vessels. They are manned by crews of 50 to 150 persons as compared to 3000 on a carrier. We could have a MSC special mission ship recover the CEV or save more money by diverting a MSC ship from its existing mission. The MSC fleet has Navy helicopters used to transport cargo and mail to ships at sea; these could double as a capsule and crew recovery bird. Money saved could be plowed into more frequent flight rates for the CEV.

A special missions ship could do CEV recovery work,
http://www.msc.navy.mil/PM2/]http://www … y.mil/PM2/
But look at these MSC ships that transport fuel and groceries and food to the navy ships at sea.
http://www.msc.navy.mil/PM5/]http://www … y.mil/PM5/
these ships have a helicopter deck that could handle a CEV capsule and land a returning crew! All with a ship of only 40 to 50 crew. The lucky ship and crew that hosted our astronauts would make a run for the nearest port and discharge the astronauts and then continue with its navy mission,crew return would cost the taxpayers next to nothing extra
http://www.msc.navy.mil/PM5/]military sealift command

#5 Re: Meta New Mars » CEV recovery - cost effective CEV recovery plan » 2004-10-31 17:26:18

Decades ago we used large navy ships with huge crews (aircraft carriers) to recover human crewed space craft at sea. In wartime and duo to costs it would be hard to see this as a cost effective way to recover a ballistic reentry CEV.
However the navy does have a large fleet of civil service and contract crewed public vessels. They are manned by crews of 50 to 150 persons as compared to 3000 on a carrier. We could have a MSC special mission ship recover the CEV or save more money by diverting a MSC ship from its existing mission. The MSC fleet has Navy helicopters used to transport cargo and mail to ships at sea; these could double as a capsule and crew recovery bird. Money saved could be plowed into more frequent flight rates for the CEV.
   tried to post this in human missions to mars but the forum kicks  me back to guest after signing in and does not allow a new topic
:bars:

#7 Re: Human missions » mammalian reprodution in "zero g" - bad news? » 2004-03-01 14:15:44

bad news?
but we will not know for sure intill a flight experiment is done.
[http://peer1.nasaprs.com/search2003/ind … ASKID=2384]reprodutive biology
and a flight experiment should include simulated moon and mars gravity as well

#8 Re: Unmanned probes » Nothing special inside BB!? » 2004-02-26 03:03:00

but wait! is that stratifgraphy I see or an artifac from the rat drilling?

#9 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-26 02:56:47

wooooow a blue berry cut in half!
notice that is is homongenes.do not see any layers?

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … B032R1.jpg]blue berry cut in half

#10 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ion Propulsion » 2004-02-25 21:34:45

I was thinking a large solar electric for this mission but the solar panels would have yet more drag.of course the ion engine it self would need a boost into  orbit so...................................... cool

#11 Re: Interplanetary transportation » cargo for mass produced launch vehicles - shut down yucca mountain divert » 2004-02-25 21:30:14

yeah!

we can not reprocess it,it is dangerous(the fuel).



we can not reprocess it, it might fall into bad peoples hands.


launching this is bad bad bad.


still removing this stuff from the biosphere is an idea.if it is ever reused again it would be a space faring civilazation discovering the stuff orbiting the outer planets.

#12 Re: Interplanetary transportation » cargo for mass produced launch vehicles - shut down yucca mountain divert » 2004-02-25 20:23:22

$40 billion and more will be spent by DOE and the commercial nuclear power industry to try to make nuclear waste to "go away"
hahaha well some have suggested a solar disposel for this stuff.the sun is an object that requires a great deal of energy to get to.I have always thought that a solar system escape orbit would easer but what a waste. make this nuclear waste work for you?.recycle it into fuel but not for use on earth.the $40 billion that will be used at yaccu mountian could pay for thousands of EELV's.but why not dispose of this "waste in the form of RTG's and other nuclear power devices.science could come for the ride. settle on a design say cassine or a bit smaller like voyager and build a great many of them.
bid out the work in 20 spacecraft lots.Two orbiters each jupiter,  saturn.uranus and neptune would take up to half of this first production lot.
  $2 billion per year from the DOE budget and say $ 800 million a year added to the existing NASA planetary exploration budgett would allow for mass prodution of EELV and science instruments.this added to the air force and NASA purchases of EELV would bring down the cost by a order of magnatude.
   I have read somewhere that there is 40,00 tons of commercial waste and an equal amount of wepons grade stuff around the world how long would it take to work our way through this!?
and how many rtg's and or apace craft would this be?
the DOE now has about $20 billion in a rate payer paid fund for waste disposal.

#13 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ion Propulsion » 2004-02-25 19:07:31

the argument is also being made that the deorbit module nasa wants could also orbit HST into a storage orbit that would last decades.
This same money could be used for a very large solar eletric tug.
It has also been suggested(for planetary missions and more) that prometheus a thermal nuclear rocket would also be a electricity generater(stirling ?)(rtg coupling?)this power could be used for ion power station keeping or orbit transfer
you would not be powering up a thermal nuclear rocket for every little bit of  isp you need.keeping a thermal nuclear fuel cool might be a chore.thermal nuclear may not end up being used for cargo only missions out there any how.this may be a mission for a very large nuclear eletric egine(ion)

#14 Re: Human missions » Retiring the Shuttle ASAP - How do we do it? » 2004-02-25 17:55:46

years ago I was thinking of a honorable end to the shuttles  and posted it on google groups.
[http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&l … 6rnum%3D14]shuttle as space station


and
[http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&l … 6rnum%3D16]shuttle and space station
mass produced russian and us space station parts could be ion tugged to leo eqatorial/moon/L-1/mars orbits.
steve(infocat13)

#15 Re: Human missions » Hubble mistake - Action needed » 2004-02-25 16:56:07

reusable ion powerd tug delivers HST to a orbit above and near the ISS. Do the HST 2006 maybe later do to the development time for tug.(use shuttle)
plan b lower hst to ISS modify HST there.Tug delivers HST back to its higher orbit.then in 2012-15 do this...........
[http://www.pha.jhu.edu/groups/hst10x/pi … orial.html]super HST

#16 Re: Life support systems » Food! - Marsians=vegetarians? » 2004-02-24 22:16:24

space will be important inside a greenhouse you will not have alot of space.therefore growing many species in the same space will be important.the native americans new this.growing breans and squash that grow on vines that climbed on corn stalks was an ancient invention.nearby on vertical spaces would be vines that grow woody stalks such as kiwi or grape(wine anybody?) these wil need co2 to scrub ours and small mammals and birds small livestalk could be transported from earth to mars or there semen could be.rodents and small quaell and chickens are eaten by many cultures.This could be an ISS experiment what does make the journey well? goats if you have to have red meat and milk would be a bettter bet then cows as far as the transportation issues go.

here is a list of small livestock of possibal use.
[http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe … 2F337.html]http://search.netscape.com/ns....37.html
     Oooops almost forgot bring cabbage, just ask the germans chinese and koreans this can be used in stir frie but also you can ferment all those ducks and geese and maybe the rats and other rodents you have brought!

#17 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ion Propulsion » 2004-02-24 21:41:18

nasa will spend $300 million to build a robotic reboost/deboost rocket for the HST. this could be the ion tug powered at first by solar panels move the HST to a orbit close to the ISS for refurbishment or boost to a high storage orbit.this protype should be refuelable and be human tended after its HST mission and stored at the ISS.

then ramp up this prototype tug with the promeathes reactor.

several weeks before nasa watchs editoral on this issue I had emailed this idea to them smile

#18 Re: Human missions » Post central for information on CEV - iformation station for the spacecraft » 2004-02-24 20:59:37

I would like to add the url for the nasa slep conference

[http://www.slepsummit.com/]http://www.slepsummit.com/

look at the "strategy" url page 18 the shuttle folks are shuttle-C dreaming as well.

[http://www.slepsummit.com/IIStrategy.pdf]http://www.slepsummit.com/IIStrategy.pdf

early shuttle-C studies showed that this would be an expensive proposition you would be keeping the shuttle infrastruture and work force BUT they assumed the shuttle it self would be flying as well.and what off the ssme?can we do the atlas and delta heavy lift and pay for cev and shuttle c at the same time after the shuttle is retired?
of cousre these early shuttle -C studies included in there infrastruture the vehicle assembly buildings ect these will need refurbishment you would think even without the shuttle-C ?

#19 Re: Human missions » New Russian Spacecraft » 2004-02-24 19:58:58

and we need a mini ISS in eqatrorial orbit anyhow.backup for on orbit assembly of outward bound CEV.

#20 Re: Human missions » Hypothetical Lunar Mission Profiles - How might we return to the moon? » 2004-02-24 19:28:57

If the nasa admin folks intend on using exsisting atlas or delta V then on orbit assembly will be required but wait? the Zubrin idea of keeping cargo seperate from crew transport could be used for luner missions.I.E preposition cargo landers, space station conponents in L-1 or whatever the final plan ends up being.

the CEV would use atlas or delta V to get crew to the moon/L-1 .

     the landers,L-1 space station/moon orbiting station would be launched by shuttle-C or yet more atlas and delta V.
mars will require more then this,nuclear and shuttle-Z ect.


on orbit assembly from ISS is a long term bad idea we could use ISS at first but if you must have human back up to on orbit assembly of the atlas or delta V then an human tended equtorial station would be a better idea.like the eelv the station parts have all ready had there developement costs paid for.ISS station parts could used as lunar orbiters/L-1/lunar ground station housing. with the exception of the cev all of these things could be transported with shuttle-c and a ion tug.ION tug could also manuver the HST to an orbit above the ISS.

#21 Re: Meta New Mars » shuttle C and prometheus as upper stage - atlas and delta heavy not enough to..... » 2003-10-28 14:30:47

a recent aviation week article stated that the current JIMO payload with its prometheus thruster would be payload to large for the existing EEL family.Shuttle C and prometheus might be the answer.This combination could also loft human tended space station componants into L-1 through 4 orbits and proposed asteriod missions

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