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#1 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » Today 08:54:04

I understand that I am your inferior in these matters, but I am thinking that if it as your post speculates then the key is to improve the Hot Staging.

If instead as the Pannikins try to say, one of 33 engines exploded and in cascade fashion, took out other engines, then they could put shielding back onto just the engines that are to be restarted in flight.

I think that might be 11 out of 33???

In that case they only add back 1/3 of the mass they removed by removing the shielding for the engines.

As I understand it, for Starlink, Starship only has to be cheaper than Falcon 9 or better than Blue Origin or others.  Starship can host bigger Starlinks, I think I understand.

For Data Centers, I understand that a price less than or equal to $200.00 per kg is needed.  So, adding back some of the dry mass of some of the engine shielding may not be a showstopper.

As for utility to the Moon, if refilling is not going to work then they might consider building a Mini-Starship and perhaps it would only need one or two refills.  That might give them reach to the Moon.

But I think you would say that it is still early days and we cannot know the final results at this time.


Ending Pending smile

#2 Re: Not So Free Chat » Greenland » Yesterday 13:07:36

Perhaps this is worth the trouble:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NrJaMGWOGc
Quote:

DNA Just Proved Vikings Lived In America For 350 Years — Not One Voyage

Origin Decoder

Remember Columbus spent time in Iceland before traveling to America.
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Christopher Columbus’s Time in Iceland
Historical accounts and Icelandic oral tradition suggest that Christopher Columbus visited Iceland during the winter of 1477–1478, staying at a farm called Ingjaldshóll (also spelled Ingjaldsholl) in the western region of the country, near the Snaefellsnes Peninsula and Breida Fjord The European Conservative+1.

The Visit
According to Icelandic roots and local lore, Columbus likely arrived in the early autumn of 1477 and remained through the winter, leaving in late spring The European Conservative. He stayed at Ingjaldshóll, an abandoned farm now owned by the Icelandic government, and is said to have learned from the local people about Viking expeditions to Vinland (North America) centuries earlier www.icelandicroots.com. This included stories of Leif Eriksson’s 1000 AD landing at L’Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, as well as later Norse voyages to the east coast of North America for trade and resources The European Conservative+1.

Historical Evidence
While there is no definitive documentary proof, Columbus himself mentioned the visit in his journals and in a 1495 letter to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain The European Conservative. The Ingjaldshóll church, built in 1903, still contains a painting of Columbus and a local priest studying a map, reinforcing the local tradition www.icelandicroots.com.

Significance
Some historians, like Kirk Johnson, argue that this Icelandic experience may have influenced Columbus’s confidence in finding land “across the ocean blue” when he set sail in 1492 The European Conservative. The stories of Norse exploration could have reinforced his belief that a westward sea route to the East Indies was possible.

Legacy
Today, the Ingjaldshóll site is part of Iceland’s cultural heritage, and the Snæfellsnes Peninsula remains a popular destination for visitors interested in both Viking history and the legend of Columbus’s visit www.icelandicroots.com.

In summary: While the exact details remain debated, the most widely accepted account is that Columbus spent a winter in Iceland in 1477–1478, learning about Viking voyages to North America, which may have shaped his later transatlantic expeditions.

The Viking era transitioned into Christianity.  The need for Rome to be the center of the world, (I call it the Green City), conflicted with North and Western European deviation from such an anchoring.  (In my opinion).

The fracture of the western church (In my opinion) was in part due to the churches desire to be the center of the world if Jerusalem could not be held, and the fact that Rome is not the center of the world.

So, there is an incentive to downgrade anything that North and Western Europeans might have had to offer.

I can speculate that an example of this is the creation of the concept of "Hispanic", created by a French person I believe.  Clever people.  This creates an ethnic identity which is separable from North and Western European identities.   Created no-doubt to make it harder for Mexicans and Americans to get along.  In reality, Mexicans being part Spanish and Native American, makes them quite compatible with Median type European Americans.  Anyway, I like Gods jokes.  They are quite good.

I think that the reason that the Vikings did not make a large population in North America is that their population growth rate was not very much at that time, and they did not carry many deadly diseases that they could have transmitted to North America.

Ending Pending smile

#3 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » Yesterday 10:43:33

I am very encouraged about the RVac problem on Starship itself: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC  Quote:

Starship Flight 12 RVac Problem during Burning to Space revealed! Final Lading totally Mind-Blowing
YouTube
GREAT SPACEX
24.9K views

The video content indicates that the Hot Firing may have damaged on RVac engine and the skirt of the ship.

An encouraging way to make the RVac more robust without adding a lot of weight back in the form of shielding, is said to be to put a coating on the delectate upper portions of the engine.  I presume this would be a sort of ablative coating which may dissipate some of the damaging heat from a Hot Fire gone wrong.

I do not believe that the video addresses the Booster problems though.

Ending Pending smile

#4 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Genetics » Yesterday 10:38:10

(th) please allow me to put this here.  I intend to expand on it later today: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … i-AA23z8Jx  Quote:

History With Kayleigh Official
5d
The biggest myths about Neanderthals do not hold up anymore
Many of the most persistent ideas about Neanderthals no longer match the evidence. Research now shows they were fully upright humans, cared for the sick, buried some of their dead, built shelters, used complex tools, likely wore clothing, and had the anatomy needed for speech. Their diet also included cooked plants as well as meat, and artistic expression is supported by cave paintings and ornamental use of feathers. Rather than dim-witted brutes, Neanderthals emerge as intelligent, adaptable humans who lived alongside our own ancestors and interbred with them.

I kind of don't entirely believe that Neanderthal genes are effectively only 1,2,3,4 percent of Eurasian genomes.

I am inclined to think that there are a lot of "So-So" genes.  Similar enough in humans of various types, that it did not matter if you had it from Neanderthal or Human.

I asked Bing this: "Percent of genes that are identical in Chimpanzees and Humans?"

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Percentage of Identical Genes Between Humans and Chimpanzees
Recent genome-wide comparisons show that humans and chimpanzees share about 98.8% of their DNA when comparing directly alignable regions American Museum of Natural History. This means roughly 1.2% of the genome differs in sequence between the two species Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History.

However, if you include harder-to-align regions — such as large insertions, deletions, duplications, and inversions — the overall difference increases to about 5–10% Genetic Literacy Project+1. This means the percentage of identical DNA drops to roughly 90–95% when all genomic regions are considered.

Key points:

98.8% identical in directly comparable DNA regions American Museum of Natural History.

~90–95% identical when all genomic regions are compared, including structural differences Genetic Literacy Project+1.

The remaining differences include both single nucleotide changes and larger structural variations, many of which affect genes involved in brain development, immunity, and sensory perception scienceinsights.org.

Even when genes are identical in sequence, differences in gene expression (when and how much a gene is turned on) can lead to major biological differences American Museum of Natural History+1.

In summary: While humans and chimpanzees share the vast majority of their genes, the exact percentage of identical DNA depends on how you define “identical” — from ~98.8% in direct comparisons to ~90–95% when all genomic regions are included.

So, at least 90% of the Human and Chimpanzee genes must be "So-So" You could appropriate them from either a human or a Chimpanzee, if then add the unique genes to make either a human or a Chimpanzee.  (I don't want this to ever be done in reality).

So, I have to suppose that at least 90% of all genes in Archaic Humans, Modern Humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans are equivalent or "So-So".

So, saying that a person is 0-4% Neanderthal, I think does not properly describe the situation.

At least 10% of the modern human genome could be variable, so you could amplify the influence of a particular type.

If you were 2% Neanderthal, by the typical description, you would be 20% Neanderthal type of variable genes.

So, these so-called archaic types are not nearly as extinct as has been described.

And furthermore, not every person with a so called archaic variable gene set has the same variable genes.  For instance, it seems that India has a lot that Europe does not.

So, humanity may have a pretty good palate of genes from 3 archaic types at least, human(Archaic), Neanderthal(Archic), Denisovan(Archaic).  I give equal value to all of them.  Which makes me less racist than many "Human Purist" modes of thinking.

Ending Pending smile

#5 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » Yesterday 09:42:11

I hope I did not come off as too arrogant in my last post.

I am concerned, but knowing how SpaceX does things, I am hopeful.  Remember how bad the first Starship launch was?  It appears that this new launch pad did pretty well, so that is a win.  Also, the heat shield of Starship seems to have done pretty well this time.

I do like that NASA is involved in the encouragement of things like orbital refilling, but of the important things, the PEZ dispenser of Satellites seems to me to be of most importance.  Particularly if it can also do Data Center Satellites.

We need to avoid being hysterical like as happened after Sputnik.

There is a lot of hope, but yes, the raptors seem to have issues.

Ending Pending smile

#6 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Robots becoming useful... » Yesterday 09:28:01

It may be like the car industry (th).  I am old and witnessed the effects of Japan on it.
  T
It is a rumor that the American car industry used planned obsolescence as part of their method to gain profits.  The idea was to test parts and only build enough quality in them so that they would fail at a desired rate.  That way people would buy new cars and new parts.  When I was young you had to have a plug in tank heater when a car was outside at -40 deg. F.  Maybe at -10 deg f if the car was not well maintained.

It was possible that American cars would improve over time without Japan, but in order to win the American market, Japan struggled to put better quality into their cars.  Then the American producers had to do the same thing.  As I recall when I was young a car was typically done at 100,000 miles.  Now they last much longer if cared for properly.

So, I do think that Elon Musk also thinks that if he produces quality profits will result.  That is much like what apparently Japan had for a philosophy.

In order for North American quality to be competitive they will have to have an eye on what the East Asians do.  I don't think that the East Asians are better or worse, they just do it a little different and we can copy each other.

Anybody that does not use quality as a major ingredient will not see the profits.

Ending Pending smile

#7 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » 2026-05-23 21:49:22

And yet SpaceX makes money on Falcon 9 and Superheavy.  Is it possible they do actually do int the right way in the long run?

I am going to accept (For now), that the majority of the problem was that the hot firing caused the booster to have a centrifugal force that fed gas bubbles into the raptors of the Superheavy.  NASA will have to do what they do.  Actually, at this point it might be good if they tilt to Blue Origin. 

The big win on Starship is when it can deliver satellites to orbit.  I do hope that they will do a Moonship, but punishing the children that build the dreams is not acceptable to me.  It is about continuing even if you do fall off your bike and skin your knees.

The best part is no part, but if it doesn't work maybe, you put something back.  Maybe they will.  Or maybe they will get the hot staging better figured out and also clean up the Raptor 3.0's a bit.

I am pleased that the dreamers are dreaming and riding their bikes.

Ending Pending smile

#8 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » 2026-05-23 10:43:22

I think Scott Manley has good ideas about the failures in the mission.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Starship Flight 12 - V3 Debuts with Max Power, Fatal Flips, Fast Landings and Exploding  Raptors
27:56

Starship Flight 12 - V3 Debuts with Max Power, Fatal Flips, Fast Landings and Exploding Raptors
YouTube
Scott Manley
16.4K views


He suggests that the Hot Stage went wrong for the Super Heavy, where perhaps gas bubble got into the raptors.

I don't know if that could have contributed to damage to the Vacuum Raptor on the Starship.

Anyway, the loss of the Superheavy may be corrected by improving the hot stage process.

Ending Pending smile

#9 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Kuiper Belt Objects - Generic Topic » 2026-05-23 10:06:52

I wanted someone to respond to you Terraformer, so I guess it is me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Image Quote: Hill_sphere_of_the_planets.png

I have wondered if for Ceres a "Hill Shell" might be possible.

Shell worlds are described as having an internal air pressure that supports them.

I also have tried to do atmospheric shells for Venus and Titan.

But I have wondered if a shell approximately the shape of the Hill sphere of Ceres could be constructed, and if it could have enough strength to maintain against the gravity of Ceres and the Sun.

It might be kept in position by some means  Spin Polar space elevator tech might be able to help hold it in place.  Pressure from the solar wind and also photon flux might influence it.

Maybe magnetics on both Ceres and the shell could help hold it in place.

If you had an atmosphere inside, that may hold it in place.  If the atmosphere was too thin for Viscous flow at the inner surface of the shell, then even a hole punched into it would not cause massive escape of gasses.  But an exosphere would even so push on it and might help maintain centering of Ceres inside the shell.

The shell then would keep the solar wind and other effects from stripping the atmosphere in that case.  Losses would be small.

The air pressure at the surface might build up sufficiently to perhaps allow a biosphere on the surface, because the atmosphere would be very deep.

Presuming that the shell was strong enough to endure the differential gravity from the sun, tidal forces, this would be a very large surface area that might intercept a great deal of sunlight.

Both sides of the shell would be in vacuum, with the underside having more molecules bouncing off if it.  But you could build many habitats into the shell, and so then have transport methods also built into the shell.

This is a bit like a bubble world, I suppose, but having a tiny (Dwarf) planet inside it.

Maybe it won't work, but I have asked the question.

Ending Pending smile

#10 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-23 09:08:24

I decided I wanted this information:

How many Dwarf Planets may exist in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud?


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Estimated Dwarf Planets in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud
The number of dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud is unknown, but astronomers have made several estimates based on observations and modeling.

Kuiper Belt estimates

The Kuiper Belt is a doughnut-shaped region of icy bodies beyond Neptune, containing many dwarf planets and comets Science Mission Directorate+1.

Observations suggest there could be hundreds of dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt, with some estimates as high as 200 Wikipedia.

However, many large trans-Neptunian objects have low densities and may not be solid bodies, so the actual number of true dwarf planets (in hydrostatic equilibrium) could be much lower — perhaps only a few dozen or even fewer Wikipedia.

Known Kuiper Belt dwarf planets include Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, Quaoar, Gonggong, Orcus, Ixion, Salacia, and others GO ASTRONOMY.

Oort Cloud estimates

The Oort Cloud is a vast, spherical shell of icy bodies extending far beyond the Kuiper Belt, thought to contain tens of thousands to over 10,000 dwarf planets Wikipedia.

Many of these are in very elongated orbits and may be perturbed by a hypothetical Planet Nine GO ASTRONOMY.

However, the Oort Cloud is so distant and dark that direct detection is extremely difficult, so the exact number is uncertain.

Summary of ranges

Kuiper Belt: ~hundreds (up to 200) in some models, but likely fewer if only solid, gravitationally rounded bodies count.

Oort Cloud: possibly over 10,000, but many remain undetected.

Total (Kuiper + Oort): could range from dozens to tens of thousands, depending on detection capabilities and definitions of “dwarf planet.”

In short, while we have identified a small number of confirmed dwarf planets in these regions, the true total is likely much higher due to the vastness and obscurity of the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud Wikipedia+2.

While the majority of these will be too small for an open atmosphere even if protected by a magnetic field, if Titan, Pluto, and Eris can do so then, our solar system could have quite a few of them, and some might be as much as a light year or even 1.5 light years away.

Presuming that an energy source for them which is effective can be developed then that is quite a lot of worlds, even without going to another star system.

We are typically told that these objects will be of ice, But I expect that Red Giants and Nova have been getting the galaxy dirt for a long time.  I think that these larger objects may have sucked up a lot of that dirt over time.

Query: "Amount of dust in comets?"

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Amount of Dust in Comets
Comets contain significant amounts of dust, both in their solid nuclei and in the material they release when near the Sun.

Dust in the nucleus
A comet’s nucleus is often described as a “dirty snowball” — a porous mass of ice, rock, and dust. The dust component can be up to a few percent of the total mass of the nucleus, though the exact fraction varies by comet. This dust is embedded with ices and may include silicate minerals, iron–nickel sulfides, and organic compounds Lunar and Planetary Institute.

Dust ejected into space
When a comet approaches the Sun, solar heating causes ices to sublimate, releasing gas and large amounts of dust into space. This dust forms the comet’s coma (a temporary atmosphere) and dust tail, which can extend millions of kilometers Lunar and Planetary Institute. The dust particles are typically sub-micrometer to a few hundred micrometers in size, with many being fluffy aggregates of smaller grains Wikipedia.

Quantifying the dust
While exact percentages depend on the comet, cometary dust is a major contributor to the coma and tail mass. For example, during active outbursts, comets can eject tens of tons of dust per second into the solar system, creating meteor showers when Earth passes through these trails Wikipedia+1. The total dust mass ejected over a comet’s orbit can be substantial, especially for large, active comets.

Composition and significance
Cometary dust is generally chondritic in composition, rich in mafic silicates (olivine, pyroxene), with some organics, presolar grains, and metal sulfides Wikipedia+1. Studying this dust helps scientists understand the early Solar System’s formation and the origin of materials in meteor showers.

In summary:

Dust can make up a small fraction of the nucleus mass but is a major component of the coma and tail.

Ejected dust can be tons per second during activity.

Dust is both a physical and chemical record of the comet’s origin and early Solar System conditions.

So, I am guessing that the larger the object the better it can collect dust.  If dust clouds intrude into the Oort Cloud and the Kuiper Belt, then I expect those materials to collect better onto the larger objects.

Generally, we are told that these objects were made 4.5 billion years ago, and it is implied that they have not accumulated more mass.  I expect that if they have not experienced major collisions then they will have obtained more mass.  Dust and some kinds of Ice seem probable.

It might even be possible that they are being refueled with radioactive materials in some cases. 

So, if you have energy, I think these things could be quite a resource.

Oddly enough here is some support: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA23vwPL
Quote:

Scientists found stardust trapped in Antarctic ice. What could it tell us about our solar system?
Story by Chelsea Gohd • 4d •
3 min read

Eris is currently inside of the Heliosphere, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
Quote:

History
The heliosphere is affected by extrasolar effects, such as nearby supernovas or traversing interstellar mediums of different densities, and has significantly changed over the solar system's lifetime. Evidence suggests the heliosphere was shrunk to the Inner Solar System as recently as 3 million years ago, due to a nearby supernova, which exposed Earth to interstellar medium (which may have impacted Earth's climate and ecology).[5]

So, it could be that a world like Eris and for that matter Pluto could periodically accrete fresh materials from Interstellar dust clouds.

Both Pluto and Eris appear to be warmer than they should be.  If additional accumulations can happen on a periodic basis and if there were a way for the radioactive materials to go into the interior of the world it might provide periodic heating.

If Earth were cast out of the solar system and maintained tectonic plate activity, it would have the means to increase its internal heating.

I don't know if this is possible for Eris or Pluto, maybe ice shifting might do it.

I actually prefer that accumulated dust would remain near the surface.

It is far out speculation; I cannot prove it.  Anyway, with more and more dust from exploding stars and some collisions, maybe this is possible.

I do think of what might happen if Earth went rogue and drifted into a Star Nursery.  Depending on exposure, it might become a bit larger, and more tectonically active or it might turn into a Ice/Gas Giant, I think.

And that brings another question, what if our solar system drifted into a star nursery?  Very unlikely, I think but possible maybe.


Ending Pending smile

#11 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-22 20:01:05

I want to explain this which appears in post #115 and #116 a bit more:
Xec4C4l.png

The color blue suggests atmosphere which resembles the current one of Titan.  Mainly Nitrogen, but I think some Methane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Titan
https://www.britannica.com/place/Titan- … atmosphere
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Composition of Titan’s Atmosphere
Titan’s atmosphere is dense and nitrogen-rich, making it the only moon in the Solar System with an atmosphere denser than Earth’s (about 1.5 bars at the surface, roughly 50% higher than Earth’s sea-level pressure) Wikipedia+1.

Major gas components (molar fractions) Wikipedia:

Nitrogen (N₂): ~94.2%

Methane (CH₄): ~5.65%

Hydrogen (H₂): ~0.099%

Argon (Ar): ~0.0043%

Trace gases and other hydrocarbons Wikipedia+1:

Ethane (C₂H₆)

Acetylene (C₂H₂)

Methylacetylene (C₃H₄)

Propane (C₃H₈)

Diacetylene (C₄H₂)

Hydrogen cyanide (HCN)

Carbon monoxide (CO)

Carbon dioxide (CO₂)

Cyanogen (CN₂)

Acetonitrile (CH₃CN)

PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons)

Other nitriles and organics

Chemical context:

The atmosphere is chemically reducing, lacking free oxygen, and dominated by nitrogen and methane Archive ouverte HAL.

Methane is broken down by sunlight and energetic particles into methyl radicals (CH₃), which react to form ethane and other hydrocarbons Science Mission Directorate.

These organics condense and rain out, forming lakes and seas on Titan’s surface Science Mission Directorate.

The haze seen from space is due to complex organic compounds (tholins) formed in the atmosphere Wikipedia.

Temperature and structure:

Surface temperature: ~94 K (−179°C) Britannica.

A troposphere extends up to ~42 km, with a minimum temperature of ~71 K at the top Britannica.

Clouds of nitrogen are absent because temperatures are always above nitrogen’s condensation point Britannica.

In summary, Titan’s atmosphere is a nitrogen–methane–hydrogen–argon mix with a rich inventory of hydrocarbons and nitriles, shaped by photochemistry and cold temperatures, creating a unique and complex planetary environment.

It is likely near the existing temperatures on Titan but could be a bit warmer, I suppose.  Keeping the crust of Titan cold will inhibit the buildup of more atmosphere by keeping presumed Clathrates stable.

*A question will exist, if it is desirable to increase the Methane portion of the atmosphere by evaporating lakes and seas.  Alternately it might be desired to reduce the amount of Methane and to use the Methane and water ice to make organic structure like wood and also plastics.

In the drawing the pink and red in the inverted cone enclosures are warmer than the ambient on Titan and it is intended that Only non fuel gases should be included, Nitrogen and Argon perhaps.  I guess at proper temperatures CO2 might be included.

The inverted cone enclosures will be "Lighter than air", perhaps by warmer temperatures than the outside.

I have not shown sub enclosures which might be filled with even warmer N2/O2 mixes suitable for humans.

It is presumed that the "Green" Hydrogen balloons will be susceptible to very little leakage.

While I have used lighter than air concepts, I suppose stilts might also be included for support.

The scale of the plane of cones might be very large, as I am hoping that nighttime cold air can flow down into the turbines indicated, and then flow towards the day side.

I am hoping that this would turn Titan into a giant heat engine.

The Tholen's might be harvested as a resource to build structure from.  This might "rev" up the heat engine.

But I am thinking that a form of Fusion will eventually be found that is suitable for worlds like Titan, even if not Economically competitive near Earth.  Also, I think that concentrating mirrors will work OK in orbit of Saturn, so Titan could get power in that manner as well.

I am thinking that Starship should work very well for Titan as SSTO.

Granted the amount of Structure I am suggesting being built to make Titan as I have shown, is massive and maybe insane in scope, but I am thinking of almost infinite robotic labor to create it.

Ending Pending smile

Day Length of Titan:
https://science.blurtit.com/3348297/how … moon-titan
Quote:

Approximately 15.9 Earth days
A day on Titan lasts approximately 15.9 Earth days, which is around 381 hours. This is due to Titan being tidally locked with Saturn, meaning it takes the same time to rotate on its axis as it does to orbit the planet. Some sources may round this to about 16 Earth days.

If the Tholen's were partly or mostly removed from the Atmosphere, then Noon daylight would heat lower down causing a vacuum bringing the winds from superstation down closer to the surface.  Yes the sun is dim, but the atmosphere is thick and the day/night cycle is much longer than that of Earth's.

Ending Pending smile

#12 Re: Human missions » Starship is Go... » 2026-05-22 19:58:34

I think that the booster had issues on landing, and the Starship went to sub-orbit on 5 engines.  But the Starship landing looked pretty good.  I am glad it was as good as it was, as it will allow evaluation of things that need improvement.

A good day.

Ending Peiding smile

#13 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-22 13:17:14

Based on hope from the just previous post, I have begun to wonder about the planets X, and Y which are proposed, but at this time not of substance "Yet".

For Planet X, my hope would be for either a Super-Earth or a Mini-Neptune, and that it could have significant moons.  That is just wishing, but a moon the size of Mars or Earth would be quite a thing.  I do accept that odds are not in its favor, but it could be.

The case for Planet "Y", is that it might exist and may be between the size of Mercury or Earth.

https://www.sciencealert.com/planet-y-a … lanet-nine
Quote:

"One explanation is the presence of an unseen planet, probably smaller than the Earth and probably bigger than Mercury, orbiting in the deep outer Solar System," astrophysicist Amir Siraj of Princeton University told CNN.

"This paper is not a discovery of a planet, but it's certainly the discovery of a puzzle for which a planet is a likely solution."

Since I am doing a lot of wishing here, I might as well wish for what I would want.  Perhaps getting let down later will happen or not.

I have previously assumed to objects in the outer solar system; will either be having a dense Hydrogen/Helium dominated atmosphere or be having an extremely thick layer of ice over any rocky materials.

The is generally true all the way out to Pluto, but I speculate that if these outermore objects may be at times outside of the Heliosphere, and so I anticipate that dust clouds have encompassed such worlds at times.  So, given billions of years dense clouds of dust may have deposited on to a presumed ice layer.

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How Dust Clouds Can Push the Heliosphere
The heliosphere is the vast magnetic bubble created by the Sun’s solar wind, which shields the Solar System from much of the harsh radiation of interstellar space. Its size and shape depend on the balance between the outward pressure of the solar wind and the inward pressure of the surrounding interstellar medium (ISM) — the gas and dust between stars www.weatheradar.com.

When the Solar System encounters a dense interstellar cloud, the increased pressure from the cloud can compress the heliosphere, pushing its boundary (the heliopause) closer to the inner planets www.weatheradar.com+1. This is similar to how a strong wind can push a balloon inward.

Dust’s Role in the Interaction
While the ISM is mostly gas, it contains interplanetary dust (IDP) and interstellar dust grains. These tiny particles can:

Scatter and absorb radiation, altering the local plasma environment.

Influence dust impacts on spacecraft and planetary surfaces, as seen in missions like New Horizons Wikipedia.

In rare cases, be part of dense interstellar clouds that interact directly with the heliosphere.

Past Encounters and Heliosphere Compression
Recent research suggests the Solar System may have passed through dense interstellar clouds about 2–3 million years ago and again around 7 million years ago news.harvard.edu+1. These encounters were so intense that they could have:

Collapsed the heliosphere, briefly placing Earth outside its protective influence news.harvard.edu+1.

Allowed interstellar dust and gas to reach the inner Solar System, as evidenced by spikes in rare radioactive isotopes like iron‑60 and plutonium‑244 found in Earth’s crust and Moon rocks news.harvard.edu.

Potentially altered Earth’s climate by exposing the planet to more galactic cosmic rays and interstellar particles ScienceDaily.

Why It Matters
These events show that the heliosphere is not a static shield but a dynamic structure shaped by the Sun’s motion through the galaxy. Dust and gas from interstellar clouds can temporarily disrupt it, with possible consequences for:

Radiation exposure to Earth

Atmospheric chemistry

Long-term climate patterns

In short, dust clouds (as part of denser interstellar clouds) can push the heliosphere inward, compressing it and even allowing interstellar material to enter the inner Solar System under rare, high-density encounters www.weatheradar.com+1.


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So, over 4.5 billion years there could be a buildup of a dust impregnated crust on a planet 'Y'.

IF planet 'Y' would have plate tectonics, unfortunately that might the cause the dust to sink out of reach.  But more likely a planet smaller than Earth will not have Plate tectonics, or if it does, a thick ice layer above the a active rocky core would be too light to subduct into the rock.

The continuing input of cosmic dust would however increase the number of radioactive materials on such a world.

Eris appears to show geologic activity:
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Is Eris an Active World?
Recent astronomical research suggests that Eris is likely an active world, at least in geological terms, despite its extreme distance from the Sun.

Eris is a dwarf planet in the scattered disc of the Kuiper Belt, about 2,326 km in diameter and roughly 27% more massive than Pluto Wikipedia. It has a very cold surface, with temperatures ranging from about 30K to 56K Wikipedia, making it inhospitable to life as we know it. However, studies using the James Webb Space Telescope have revealed surprising clues about its internal activity.

In 2024, scientists analyzed Eris’s methane-rich surface and found deuterium in some methane molecules. Deuterium is a heavier isotope of hydrogen, and its presence in methane suggests the methane was formed in a hotter, more active environment beneath the surface Astronomy Magazine+1. This is inconsistent with a completely dead, primordial body, and points to geologically recent or ongoing internal processes.

The spectral data indicate that the methane likely formed through thermogenic and abiotic mechanisms deep within Eris, possibly vented to the surface through geological activity Brian Koberlein. This could mean that Eris has a subsurface ocean or other internal heat sources, similar to how Pluto remains geologically active.

In summary:

Eris is not a “living” world in the biological sense.

It is geologically active in the sense that it has internal processes generating methane and other volatiles.

This activity is likely driven by internal heat, possibly from a subsurface ocean or radioactive decay.

So, while Eris is not a habitable world, it is an active dwarf planet in the sense that it is not a cold, dead remnant — it has ongoing geological processes Astronomy Magazine+1.


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Wikipedia
Eris (dwarf planet) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_%28dwarf_planet%29
Astronomy Magazine
Eris and Makemake unveil surprisingly active natures to the JWST
https://www.astronomy.com/science/dista … telescope/
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https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Eris_(dwarf_planet)
Eris (dwarf planet) - Wikipedia
Eris is the ninth-most massive known object orbiting the Sun [24] and the sixteenth-most massive in the Solar System (counting moons). It is also the largest known object in the Solar System that has not …


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https://shapes.inc › eris-rzpj › status
Eris's Current Status — Is Eris Alive? | Shapes AI
Eris remains an active dwarf planet in the distant Kuiper Belt, continuing to orbit the Sun while serving as a key subject in astronomical education and exploration.

Images of Eris Is An Active World?

And it is more massive than Pluto, which makes it interesting.

Elon Musk may be correct about solar energy being more important than fusion energy, but probably not if you are trying to work with Eris or a Planet 'Y' (If it exists).

So, presuming that some type of fusion is possible or some other unknown energy source we might hope to do an atmospheric shell for Eris and planet 'Y' if it exists.  (See the previous post).

Quote from the previous post:

Xec4C4l.png

This will likely be harder than for Titan as you likely have to inflate an atmosphere in the first place.

An advantage of being more outside of the Heliosphere which therefore might allow dust clouds to periodically refresh supplies of metals, radioactive fuels, and fusion fuels.

So, it might be that humans might progress world to world outward even deep into the Kuiper Belt, and even into the Oort Cloud, and even into the places where rogue worlds exist.

And Aliens may have done this as well.

Ending Pending smile

#14 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-22 10:32:56

I have somewhat involuntarily been considering an atmospheric shell for Titan, perhaps a bit similar to the one I have considered for Venus.

I consider that it has not been well solved, but I want to work towards an initial concept, so that I can think of other things instead for a while.

Xec4C4l.png

The hope is to keep warm "Down Cones" and yet keep the actual surface as cold as it needs to be to not excessively expand the atmosphere.

Methane as a problem and a possible resource.  As a problem it may condense inconveniently on the structure and make damage.  Or it might be used to make lots of structural materials, such as wood and plastics.

I am presuming an energy source like Fusion or less likely orbital mirrors that have heat engines that make electricity and then the energy beamed down by microwaves or maybe even lasers.

I have shown "Dual Air Flows" that will allow cold night air to pass through ports, and which may have turbines in the air flow.  if the surface develops excess heat these flows might go up instead of down.  So, a sort of controlled wind system with horizontal turbines.

It would be decided what to do with the Tholen's.  They could be filtered out and used as a resource or increased.  If filtered out, then the day side of Titan would have some amount of light more on it's surface than it does now.  If you removed the Tholen's then the nights will get even colder, The day/night thermal contrast then would have more wind power, if the Sky's were made to be clear.

I am presuming that robotic synthetic labor would make the construction costs reasonable and that no life was found on Titan.

So, you would turn Titan into a massive heat engine.

If it would work for Titan, then maybe it could be done for Triton, Pluto, Eris, and other such lesser sized objects.  It is not certain if these bodies could hold atmospheres sufficiently well, but it seems that some people believe that when Pluto is sufficiently close to the sun it has a significant atmospheric pressure.

Unlike for Titan, it may be desirable to find a way to extract more Ammonia for its Nitrogen, if it does exist in the subsurface of the worlds .

I like to think of how Starship would work for Titan, Triton, Pluto, Eris, and (Any others???).

It may be that for Triton, Pluto, and Eris, etc., an artificial magnetic field could improve atmosphr4ic retention.

Ending Pending smile

#15 Re: Terraformation » Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan » 2026-05-21 13:12:57

(th) made a favorable comment about the just prior post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 35#p239435

I agree that both Moxie or Plasma method might have value.  The chain of factors in the prior post may by variations provide a method of
Energy + CO2 + Water + nutrients to obtain Air and Food wherever the inputs may exist.

That includes just about any space environment where humans breath.

I agree that the contents of that post #41 are of great potential importance.

I will appreciate it if Spacenut does do as you have suggested.

Ending Pending smile

#16 Re: Terraformation » Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan » 2026-05-21 10:29:37

This will have considerable value for Mars and other worlds as well. (Venus for instance).

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … o6#image=1  Quote:

How plasma could speed up the dream of Mars colonization
Story by Nadeem Sarwar•
1w

Quote:

How Plasma Could Speed Up The Dream Of Mars Colonization
©Alones/Shutterstock
Plasma — the energized gaseous phase of matter — is everywhere in the universe, and humanity is reaping its benefits by using it for everything from neon signs to sustainable waste management. An international team of experts has now proposed a system that employs plasma to synthesize oxygen using Mars' atmosphere. Or to put it more accurately, pulling oxygen out of the thin Martian air.

As part of the research, the team created Mars-like conditions in a laboratory and shot plasma beams at the gaseous mixture to synthesize oxygen gas. The findings, which have been published in the Journal of Applied Physics, note that plasma technology is scalable, versatile, and more importantly, it can produce more oxygen while also reducing the bulk of machinery needed for the process.

Right now, In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) is being seen as the most viable solution for exploration missions to distant bodies like Mars. Even for projects as ambitious as mining asteroids, research suggests establishing a floating base station around Mars' satellites is the way to go forward. That's primarily because hauling tons of critical resources like oxygen and rocket fuel is not practical for long voyages.

However, if there are systems that can utilize the local resources of Mars and turn them into usable materials like breathing gas, the logistics issues can be solved and the mission feasibility goes higher. Plasma tech for synthesizing oxygen on Mars will "likely play a very relevant role in future ISRU strategies," per the latest research.

Quote:

Current state of resource management on Mars
©NASA/JPL-Caltech
NASA has already put an experimental system on the red planet that can convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. Dubbed Mars Oxygen In-Situ Resource Utilization Experiment (MOXIE), the machine is the size of a car battery and operates out of the Perseverance rover. In April of 2021, the MOXIE kit successfully managed to harvest oxygen gas on Mars for the first time.

Moxie relies on a system called Solid Electrolysis Cells (SOEC) that passes electricity between two electrodes to create a temperature higher than 1,000 K for breaking down carbon dioxide into water. But it has its own set of drawbacks. For example, the electrode material is susceptible to chemical degradation in the process.

To avoid this fate, it would require a working atmosphere of carbon monoxide, high temperature, and high pressure. All that requires extra gear like a compression system and thermal insulation system, which only adds to the bulk and also shoots up the power requirements.

MOXIE is currently designed to produce only 10 grams of oxygen per hour. According to NASA, To launch off the surface of Mars, astronauts would need 25 metric tons of oxygen and an additional 7 metric tons of rocket fuel. To achieve such numbers, the size of MOXIE needs to be enhanced roughly by a factor of 100. Therefore, it is critical that engineers and scientists develop better-performing, smaller, and more energy-efficient systems for oxygen generation on Mars, which is where the plasma tech can prove to be a gamechanger.

Image Quote: AA237HYN.img?w=800&h=435&q=60&m=2&f=jpg

Quote:

Why is plasma tech tailor-made for Mars?
©Krzysztof Winnik/Shutterstock
The atmosphere of Mars is made up of roughly 96% carbon dioxide — the raw material that needs to be broken down for harvesting oxygen. Aside from feeding this oxygen into base stations, a miniaturized gas conversion device could also be used to produce breathing gas on the go, reducing the need for carrying bulky gas cylinders as astronauts explore the Martian surface.

Additionally, the carbon monoxide produced during the plasma-catalyzed breakdown of carbon dioxide can be mixed with oxygen to create the propellant material for rocket fuel. Further decomposition can lead to the production of carbon, which can subsequently be used for the synthesis of other organic molecules or find purpose in construction materials.

A promising possibility is that by altering the plasma arc's chemistry, nitrogen can also be trapped from the Martian atmosphere to make breathing gas and fertilizers, as well. Another advantage is the atmospheric conditions on Mars, which are even more favorable for plasma ignition and related processes compared to that on Earth.

The team behind the latest research notes that the pressure, temperature, and gas composition on Mars are more suited for plasma-based resource harvesting. For example, the argon and nitrogen present in the Martian atmosphere can further enhance the plasma dissociation process. Plus, the power requirements are also significantly lower.

Quote:

Technical advantages of plasma tech
©Merlin74/Shutterstock
When it comes to critical machinery for long missions or dreaming about a crewed exploration on bodies like Mars, the biggest issues are cargo bulk, energy requirement, ease of usage, and efficiency. Bringing plasma into the picture has a few advantages on a technical level.

For example, once oxygen has been produced in the plasma chamber, the heat generated by the plasma arc can itself be used to harvest the gas. The ionic conductivity of a membrane for collecting the oxygen ions goes up above a certain temperature level, something that is already attainable in the plasma arc chamber.

The takeaway here is that with plasma technology coming into the picture, there is no need for dedicated pre-heating equipment to increase the membrane's temperature and enhance its oxygen pass-through. The free electrons in the plasma will provide an additional kinetic kick to further boost the movement of oxygen across the membrane.

At the end of the day, plasma-powered tech offers two critical advantages for such missions. It can deliver better synthesis performance by lowering the energy requirements for producing oxygen, and it can also reduce the mass of machinery required to produce the same amount of oxygen as the current system in place.

Quote:

The tricky road ahead
©Supamotion/Shutterstock
Preliminary calculations made by the team suggest that a plasma reactor weighing 6 kilograms can produce 14 grams of oxygen per hour. On the other hand, a 15-kilogram reactor like the MOXIE system can only manage 5.5 grams of oxygen synthesized per hour. Overall, a plasma-powered system can generate six times more oxygen per hour per kilogram of machinery sent to Mars compared to that of a MOXIE-like system.

However, there are still a few challenges that need to be tackled. First, where would the oxygen produced by a large plasma system be stored on Mars? Plus, the plasma-membrane tech is still very much a work in progress in the research community. Another major hurdle is going from theory to practicality.

The plasma tech will first have to be demonstrated on Mars to prove that it is actually a more capable alternative to the MOXIE experiment. Doing so would require lots of funding, NASA support, and of course, a ride aboard a rocket to land on Martian soil. According to a report in the New Scientist, the team is hoping to build a working prototype of their plasma-powered oxygen synthesis system in the next couple of years.

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I have a query to test my computer with: "Microbes that consume Carbon Monoxide?"

As is often true my computers search engine is a dud.

As is often true my phones search engine is more helpful, quote: "Microbes that consume Carbon Monoxide (CO) are known as carboxydroophs or carboxydovores.  The thrive in environments ranging from industrial waste gasses to soil and hot springs.  Using specialized  enzimes "called carbon monoxide dehydrogenases (CODH) to break down the toxic gas into Carbon and energy.

Query my computer now understood: "+carboxydroophs microbes that consume Carbon Monoxide"
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Microbes That Consume Carbon Monoxide
Several groups of microbes are capable of metabolizing carbon monoxide (CO), using it as an energy source and helping to detoxify the atmosphere.

Key microbial groups and mechanisms

Carboxydotrophic bacteria are a major group that oxidize CO to carbon dioxide (CO₂) for energy. They often use a specialized enzyme called CO dehydrogenase (CODH), which catalyzes the oxidation of CO. This enzyme is found in trillions of microbes in soils and waters, where they consume CO for their own survival while reducing atmospheric levels of this toxic gas www.the-microbiologist.com+1.

Thermophilic hydrogenogenic carboxydotrophs are a subset of carboxydotrophs that live in hot environments such as hydrothermal springs. They possess a CODH–energy-converting hydrogenase (ECH) gene cluster, allowing them to oxidize CO and produce hydrogen gas (H₂) as a byproduct. This H₂ can fuel other microbial communities in the ecosystem pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.

These microbes are distributed in diverse environments, including freshwater sediments, hydrothermal systems, and soils, and their presence helps regulate CO concentrations, counteracting air pollution and indirectly mitigating climate change by reducing CO’s greenhouse effect www.the-microbiologist.com+1.

Ecological and biogeochemical importance
Globally, over 2 billion metric tons of CO are released annually, but microbes consume about 250 million tons of it, converting it to CO₂ www.the-microbiologist.com. This process is part of the natural carbon cycle and helps maintain breathable air. The Monash University-led study revealed the atomic-level structure of the CO dehydrogenase enzyme, showing how it extracts energy from atmospheric CO and powers microbial cells www.the-microbiologist.com+1.

Summary table of key microbes and traits

Microbe Type    Habitat    Key Enzyme   
Function

Carboxydotrophic bacteria    Soils, waters, sediments    CO dehydrogenase (CODH)   
Oxidize CO to CO₂ for energy

Thermophilic hydrogenogenic carboxydotrophs    Hot springs, hydrothermal sediments    CODH–ECH cluster   
Oxidize CO, produce H₂

General carboxydotrophs    Various anaerobic environments    CODH   
Detoxify CO, support microbial communities

In short, carboxydotrophic bacteria and their specialized CODH enzymes are the primary microbial players in CO consumption, with thermophilic hydrogenogenic carboxydotrophs adding a hydrogen-producing role in extreme environments.


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This similar query also got a sensible response from my computer: "+carboxydovore microbes that consume Carbon Monoxide"
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Carboxydovore microbes are specialized bacteria that consume carbon monoxide (CO) as an energy source. Here are some key points about these microbes:
CO Consumption: Carboxydovores use carbon monoxide dehydrogenase to convert CO into carbon dioxide (CO2) and hydrogen ions (H+), providing energy for their metabolism.
2
Microbial Diversity: These microbes are part of a broader group of CO-oxidizing bacteria, which play a crucial role in the global carbon cycle by reducing atmospheric CO levels.
2
Ecological Role: The presence of carboxydovores helps detoxify the atmosphere, contributing to the reduction of harmful CO emissions.
2
Research Findings: Recent studies have identified novel carboxydovore strains that can efficiently consume CO, potentially leading to the production of biofuels and other valuable products.
2
Enzymatic Mechanism: The CO dehydrogenase enzyme is essential for the metabolic processes of carboxydovores, allowing them to thrive in environments with low CO concentrations.
2

These microbes are vital for understanding the dynamics of CO in the environment and their potential applications in biotechnology and environmental remediation.


6 Sources

From my phone again: "Industrial Biofuel Producers: Strains like Clostridium autoethanogenum can thrive on pure CO. They consume the gas and biologically convert it into valuable fuels and chemicals such as ethanol and acetate.
"

The plasma separation process has to occur at low pressures with cold Mars atmosphere, which is obtainable on Mars.

If you then compressed the gas mix into a water filled vat, I suggest that it may be possible to generate the chemicals mentioned above.

Ethanol would be a fuel you could use.
Acetate can be used with Oxygen to grow yeast and Algae and maybe also some vascular plants.  Also, Mushrooms can grow on acetate I think.

A manner of pumping suggested by Calliban and which I had some previous exposure with, I do not recall the name.  A stream of water flowing down a thin pipe has air bubble injected into it at the top and compresses the air bubbles with water column pressure.

The reason to want to pump this way is you would be compressing an explosive mixture of gas.  CO and O2.  So, I hope that the small bubbles isolated by water will prohibit a dangerous level of explosion.   Ideally the two gasses will be dissolved into the water at the bottom of the pipe, and not collect into a large pocket of explosive gas.

My computer did very well with that, although I still don't have the name of it.  Quote:

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Compressing Air Bubbles in a Water Flow with a Thin Pipe
When you inject an air bubble into the top of a thin pipe carrying a flowing water column, the water’s pressure at that point will compress the bubble, and the degree of compression depends on the flow velocity, pipe geometry, and injection conditions.

1. Pressure at the Injection Point
At the top of the pipe, the water pressure is determined by the hydrostatic head from the reservoir or pump, plus any dynamic pressure from the flow. For a thin pipe, the velocity is high, so the dynamic pressure term
1
2
ρ
v
2
can be significant. The total pressure
P
at the injection point is:

P
=
P
static
+
1
2
ρ
v
2
where
P
static
is the hydrostatic pressure from the water column above,
ρ
is the water density, and
v
is the flow velocity OpenStax.

2. Bubble Compression
The injected air bubble will expand or contract to match the local pressure. If the injection pressure is above the bubble’s initial pressure, the bubble will shrink; if below, it will expand. In your case, since the water column pressure is higher than atmospheric, the bubble will be compressed.

The compression ratio can be estimated from the ideal gas law:

P
2
P
1
=
T
2
T
1
·
V
1
V
2
If we assume constant temperature,
P
2
/
P
1
=
V
1
/
V
2
, so the volume ratio is the inverse of the pressure ratio.

3. Flow Effects on Bubble Size
In flowing water, bubbles behave differently than in static water. High flow rates tend to reduce bubble size because the water’s kinetic energy limits coalescence and allows smaller bubbles to remain stable Academia.edu. In turbulent flow, bubbles may also be entrained and carried downstream, and their size can vary along the pipe due to velocity gradients Academia.edu.

4. Experimental Insights
Studies of air bubbles in liquid flow show that:

Bubble velocity and size depend on injection rate and flow velocity Academia.edu.

In high-velocity flows, bubbles are smaller and more uniformly distributed.

Pressure gradients from the water column can cause significant compression of bubbles, especially in narrow pipes where velocity is high OpenStax.

5. Practical Considerations
Pipe diameter: Narrower pipes increase velocity for the same flow rate, increasing dynamic pressure and compression.

Flow rate: Higher rates increase dynamic pressure and can limit bubble growth.

Bubble injection method: The rate and location of injection affect how quickly and how much the bubble is compressed.

In summary: The air bubble will be compressed by the water column’s pressure at the injection point, with the degree of compression depending on the static and dynamic pressures, temperature, and the bubble’s initial state. In a thin pipe with high flow, the compression will be significant, and bubble size will be smaller due to the high-velocity environment Academia.edu+1.


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So, if microbes consume CO and O2 in the presence of water, in order for them to manufacture Ethanol or Acetate, they have to extract Hydrogen molecules from the water, thus liberating Oxygen.

So, this process could be done in a batch manner where during the sunshine, you generated CO and O2 and injected it into a vat of water (With nutrients), then also during the night the microbes might consume all of the CO to make Hydrocarbons dissolved in the water, and then what would be left on top of the water would be gas of O2, and perhaps N2 and Argon, as you would get them from the Mars Atmosphere.  If done correctly on the completion of the "Batch" all the CO would be consumed, rendering the gas mix as suitable for human consumption.  You might want Canaries available to test the output before presenting it to humans.

Query: "Canaries in the coal mine, why?"
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Why “Canary in the Coal Mine” Was Used
The phrase “canary in the coal mine” comes from a real historical practice in which bright yellow songbirds were used as early warning systems for deadly gases in coal mines.

The Danger: Carbon Monoxide
Coal mines in the 19th and early 20th centuries often had carbon monoxide (CO) buildup, a gas that is colorless, odorless, and deadly. At high levels, it can cause unconsciousness and death within minutes Nautilus+1. Miners had no reliable instruments to detect it until the canary method was introduced.

Why Canaries?
Canaries were chosen because:

They are highly sensitive to carbon monoxide and other toxic gases, reacting before humans do Nautilus+1.

They breathe more air per breath than humans, so they absorb more gas and show distress faster Nautilus+1.

They are small and portable, making them easy to carry in cages into the mine Smithsonian Magazine.

When a canary showed signs of distress—such as swaying, gasping, or collapsing—it signaled to miners that the air was unsafe and that evacuation was needed Nautilus+1. In some cases, miners even revived the birds by supplying oxygen Nautilus.

Origins
The idea was proposed by John Scott Haldane, a British physiologist, after an 1896 mine explosion in Wales. He concluded CO buildup was the cause and suggested using animals more sensitive to poison gases than humans. Canaries were the most practical choice Smithsonian Magazine+1.

Cultural Impact
Over time, the canary became a symbol of early warning. Miners often treated them like pets, whistling to them in the dark Smithsonian Magazine+1. By the 1980s, the practice was replaced by electronic gas detectors, and the UK officially banned canaries in mines in 1986 Smithsonian Magazine.

Modern Meaning
Today, “canary in the coal mine” is an idiom meaning an early warning sign of danger—not literally about birds, but about any indicator that something harmful is about to happen. Examples include:

A drop in customer retention as a warning of deeper business problems.

Coral bleaching as a sign of ocean health decline grammarschooling.com.

In short, the phrase exists because canaries literally saved lives underground by detecting invisible, deadly gases before they killed miners.


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So, much simpler than science machines.

Ending Pending smile

#17 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Humanoid and other robots. » 2026-05-21 10:21:19

This is somewhat interesting, but they still are hiding the "Secret Sauce", which is sensible, in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-3omla3M8
Quote:

It Just Happened! Tesla Optimus Gen 3 FIRES UP, 1 Million Robots Incoming

Tech Revolution

I have previously seen testimony that a robot that lasts 3 years could very much pay for its cost and then some.

It has occurred to me, however that obviously one part of a robot should wear out, it could be replace in a modular fashion.

For instance, I expect that you might send in hand/lower arm in to be refurbished, and perhaps get credit for sending it in, and you could get a new or rebuilt one before you send the old one in.

In other worlds if a hand stops working correctly, you don't trash the whole robot.  So lasting 3 years only is not at all likely to be the limit of the machine.

Humans with damaged hands, are much more of a problem to repair or replace.

Ending Pending smile

#18 Re: Not So Free Chat » Artificial Egg / Womb » 2026-05-21 05:01:34

Your opinion has value, (In my opinion).

At this point the technology of egg, seems to be approaching a capability.

Humans are already experimenting with the Marsupial model, when they put premature babies into incubators.  That technology is also improving.  When you do that though you are expanding the gene pool to now include those with less ability to follow the historically mandated path of human reproduction.  Previously nature prohibited that.

We also have artificial milk, so that is being altered.  Precision fermentation is likely to do that even better.

Supplemental assistive labor which previously might be of non-pregnant family or friends, are being replaced by hospital, and will be further replaced by robot labor.

I am analyzing this more as an observer than a judge.

As for the rise and fall of civilizations, I think it is due to both internal and external factors.

A factor like soils.  If a civilization has fallen with a population drop, then soils might lie fallow and become partially restored.  Then a revival might be fueled by soil that can do more, for a while.  Bubonic Plague and the Mongols might have stimulated episodes like that.

As for an example that I have lived in.  The early American school system has been regarded as inferior, and maybe it was in some ways.  It could have been better.  But at a certain point industrialists adapted Prussian Military thinking.  The greatest benefit to their intentions was that commoner boys be trained to be factory workers, and that girls may learn to provide some production of wealth but even more to pump out babies.  Humiliations for boys to break their spirit might increase their obedience.  It was said outright that there was no desire for creative people, rather they wanted obedient worker flesh robots for factories.  And it did provide wealth.

This then allowed ruling classes to develop a false sense of their own intelligence.  They became specialized in a type(s) of intelligence.  So then a deviation from the original breeding process where a narrow set of skills (Royal Skills) would extract the maximum amount of resources.

In continuing this, they are losing their ability to be what the society was prior to "Royalty" establishing an excessive dominance.

This may be being corrected now, thankfully.  If robots can become tutors, then common people will not have to go into training rooms as children where 30 or so students are encouraged to bend each others psyche's to generate white and blue collar types for the factory systems.  If life extension does expand along with health extension, then a longer childhood can be afforded and slow learners can be self educated from robot tutors for a longer period of time.

This would be a correction of a mistake of the 20'th century school system.  In that system the faster you could grow a factory worker to be a meat robot the better.  That was the desire of the ruling classes.  (They did not follow it for their own children).

But if you think about it in the old farming system on farms, usually the boys stay with the nuclear family, so there would not be a abrupt change from school to factory.  You would do some work and some learning, and if you were not fully mature at 26 it might not matter so much.  Often girls adopted to another family through marriage.  Instead of a classroom with 30 other kids children would move around during their day doing some work and learning some things.

The Prussian classroom school was especially bad for boys as they are more animated, having more muscles to be animated with.

The Roman empire most likely had a founding population that had good soil on the lands that they controlled, and nature would have culled the "Coocoo Boys" genes out of the gene pool.  If you main talent, is to sleep with other men's women and to perhaps steel wealth from other men or even kill other men, then you are a parasite.  Many people admire that, but it crowds out useful genes which may allow the skills for building an empire.

Probably the Romans in the end fostered too many "Coocoo Boys" and also the soils that nature had built perhaps became weaker from overuse.  Overuse may have resulted from too much taxation in the form of crops expropriated by "Coocoo Boy and their female accomplices.

And of course there are always the potentials of a rival power in an adjacent land.  If you have allowed your population to become degenerate and poor, you may become vulnerable to an attack from such powers.

Ending Pending smile

Continuing, adding poo to the equasion:

What did Britain supply to the roman empire?
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What Britain Supplied to the Roman Empire
During the Roman occupation of Britain (43AD–c.410AD), the province became a key supplier of agricultural products, raw materials, and manufactured goods to the wider Roman Empire.

Agricultural and Food Products
Britain’s fertile lands and temperate climate made it a major producer of grain, which was essential for feeding the Roman army and civilian population www.roman-britain.org. Other staple crops included wheat, barley, and oats. The Romans also introduced and cultivated new Mediterranean crops such as asparagus, turnips, peas, garlic, cabbages, celery, onions, leeks, cucumbers, globe artichokes, figs, medlars, sweet chestnuts, cherries, and plums Historic UK. These were exported to feed Roman troops and urban populations.

Livestock and Animal Products
Britain supplied meat, milk, and dairy products from cattle, sheep, and pigs. Wool from British sheep was especially important, as it was a major export to the Mediterranean for textiles www.roman-britain.org.

Mineral and Metal Resources
Britain was rich in iron ore and other metals, which were vital for the Roman military and industry. The province also produced lead, tin, and other minerals used in construction, coinage, and manufacturing www.roman-britain.org.

Manufactured Goods
British artisans produced pottery (including coarse wares for the army and fine Gaulish samian ware for elites), glassware, and textiles. These were both consumed locally and exported to other provinces www.roman-britain.org+1.

Strategic and Economic Role
Britain’s location and resources made it a strategic supply base for the Roman army, especially along Hadrian’s Wall. The province’s ports, such as Londinium (London), Richborough, and Dover, facilitated the export of goods to Gaul, Spain, and Italy www.roman-britain.org.

In summary, Britain supplied the Roman Empire with grain, livestock, wool, minerals, and manufactured goods, integrating into the empire’s economy as both a producer and a consumer of Mediterranean and imperial products.

If Brittain was exporting grain, then that grain was eaten by people, perhaps in Rome.
So, lees poo in Brittain, and the soils more depleted.

For Egypt in contrast seasonal flooding would bring crocodile and hippo poo to fertilize their crops.

We currently use artificial fertilizers.

But in Brittain, only a certain amount of fertilizer is added naturally to the soils each year without artificial fertilizers.
It can come from lightning, or from water lit the seas, rivers and lakes.  Birds bring fertility from the water when the roost in trees and do their poo.

It is not proven, but if agricultural products were exported to the rest of the Roman Empire, then human poo going into the waterways would be reduced.  Less fertility in the rivers and seas, less for the birds to eat.

Also soils tend to thin.

So the Romans abandoned Brittain as it was not a paying enterprise relative to the cost of ruling it.

Ending Peiding smile

#19 Re: Not So Free Chat » Artificial Egg / Womb » 2026-05-20 18:13:55

I appreciate that you take the time Robert.

Without modern medicine, girls/women sometimes died in childbirth.  That then limited the size of the baby heat at birth.  And yes it also required that the baby would grow a larger head after birth.

You could keep expanding the bone structure of the lower body, but then that might make it hard for her to run away from lions or to do work.

Because of this I expect that there has been pressure for the brain to become more efficient. (Maybe).

Also, I am under the impression that a pregnancy sucks a lot of things out of a woman's body such as Calcium, which could be negative to her health.

I am only speculating that over time artificial wombs may become better and better in result.  I am not recommending it, I am just making a speculation that this may come and may alter the nature of humans.

I have thought that intelligent life might do better as Marsupial.  But reality says Placental is better, it seems.

I am willing to entertain any more observations you may choose to offer.

Ending Peiding smile

#20 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Earth » 2026-05-20 11:28:19

I like this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC  Quote:

Utube, How Agri VoltaicsTurned Solar Panel Fields Into Massive Agricultyural Systems, May 14 2026
28:43

How Agri Voltaics Turned Solar Panel Fields Into Massive Agricultural Systems
YouTube
Terran Works
520 views

I am wondering if such installations in remote areas, might be suitable to power data centers.  They would need good backup energy such as batteries.  But what if an isolated natural gas field, not worth putting pipes to, might support such.  Maybe expired fracking wells might be able to use the remnants as backup energy for some time.

Also, it could be that the premium energy goes to data center, but when "Superpower" is available it is used to draw water from the air, or to charge grounds grooming robots.

The data could be linked up to Starlink.

Ending Peiding smile

#21 Re: Not So Free Chat » Artificial Egg / Womb » 2026-05-20 10:13:02

I didn't intend it from the start, but here now, The Coocoo Boy Game might be analyzed.

Risk, Reward, Responsibility or alternately the exclusion of such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo
Quote:

The cuckoo is a medium-sized bird known for its distinctive "coo-coo" call and unique reproductive strategy of brood parasitism.
Overview
Cuckoos belong to the family Cuculidae, which includes around 150 species across 33 genera, such as roadrunners, koels, malkohas, coucals, and anis. They are generally medium-sized, slender birds with long tails and zygodactyl feet (two toes forward, two backward), which help them grip branches. Most species are arboreal, though some, like roadrunners, are terrestrial.
Wikipedia
+2
Distinctive Call
The cuckoo’s call, often described as "coo-coo," is iconic in Europe and inspired cuckoo clocks. Male cuckoos produce the classic "cuck-oo" sound, while females may emit a "kwik-kwik-kwik" call. These calls are often more noticeable than the birds themselves, as many species are shy and inhabit dense vegetation.
Audubon
+1
Reproduction and Brood Parasitism
Many cuckoo species, particularly the Common Cuckoo (Cuculus canorus), are brood parasites, laying their eggs in the nests of other birds. The unsuspecting host birds then raise the cuckoo chicks, often at the expense of their own young. Some species, however, build their own nests and raise their young independently.
Audubon
+2
Habitat and Distribution
Cuckoos are found worldwide, except Antarctica, with the greatest diversity in the Old World tropics. They inhabit a variety of ecosystems, including forests, woodlands, grasslands, shrublands, and even arid regions. Migratory species, like the Common Cuckoo, travel across Europe and Asia, occasionally reaching western Alaska.
Britannica
+2
Physical Characteristics
Cuckoos vary in size from the tiny little bronze cuckoo (17 g, 15 cm) to large species like the Channel-billed Cuckoo (630 g, 63 cm),. Most have drab gray or brown plumage, though some tropical species display bright colors or iridescence. Their long tails aid in flight and maneuvering through trees or on the ground.
Wikipedia
+1
Cultural Significance
Cuckoos have been part of human culture for centuries. In Europe, they symbolize spring and cuckoldry, appearing in literature such as Shakespeare’s works. In India, they are sacred to Kamadeva, the god of desire, while in Japan, they symbolize unrequited love.
Wikipedia
Notable Species
Common Cuckoo (Cuculus canorus): Famous for brood parasitism and egg mimicry.
1
Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus optatus): Migratory, breeds in Siberia and northern Asia.
1
Black-billed and Yellow-billed Cuckoos: Found in American forests, insectivorous.
1
Mangrove Cuckoo: Adapted to coastal habitats.
1
African Emerald Cuckoo: Iridescent tropical species.
1
Channel-billed Cuckoo: Largest parasitic cuckoo, found in Australia.
1

Cuckoos are fascinating birds, combining unique vocalizations, diverse habitats, and remarkable reproductive strategies, making them a captivating subject for birdwatchers and naturalists alike.

Although technically it is the female that practices the parasitism in this bird type.

The problem with abandoning monogamy, is that the male is tested for promiscuity as his defining trait.

I don't think that societies that practice promiscuity or too much polygamy can prosper long term, because I expect that they will preferentially breed Coocoo Boys and not Capable Men.

I believe that I.Q. and prosperity are at stake in this matter.

If you cant to and can then prove me wrong.

The reason I brought this in here is because I thought for a moment that artificial wombs might get rid of Coocoo Boy breeding, but of course we have already had doctors play Coocoo Boy with someone else woman.

Although gene tests might reveal this now.

Leaving out Eugenics, with an artificial womb and gene testing, it might be possible to test a family unit for its relative fitness.

With Eugenics, then the test will be a false one, because the director of breeding may very well have an unfit notion of evaluating fitness.

The two ideas of Superman are:
1) NAZI" get a perfect man and clone him endlessly.
2) Gloden Man: Find the perfect blend of genes from all races and clone that perfect pattern endlessly.

Both are stupid, as You cannot properly judge "Perfect", and you cannot hold all possible human attributes in one cloned pattern.

Some people are impressed by "Coocoo Boys", I am not.

I believe that it is the path to poverty.

Ending Pending smile

#22 Not So Free Chat » Artificial Egg / Womb » 2026-05-20 09:00:38

Void
Replies: 7

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

World’s Most Advanced Artificial Egg Hatches Chicks
YouTube
Colossal Biosciences
8.3K views

The other path is wombs that evolve to help premature babies.

The question of brain.  The birth canal restriction may limit it.  The baby brain expands into an adult brain.

Growing babies in incubators will make humans more like birds.

Although even female birds do get pregnant, but they lay an egg.

In humans a great burden is on the female for this particular task.  The assignment of the task historically is somewhat involuntary.

Then develops males that may or may not want to assist during and after.  Then social structures are created which usually encourage the males and non-breeders to sometimes provide assistance.

In my opinion the body to head ratio is important.  The body has to be sufficient to provide for the contents of the head.

I believe that a factor that many males have as desire is a large heat relative to body.  So, then they might be attracted to females that have that attribute.  But obviously the hip and birth canal structure of the female argues against that.

If humans cease to give natural birth but do so in artificial wombs, then this contest of desires and necessities is ended.

But then still the body has to be fit enough to provide for the head.  In a lower gravity field, perhaps head size might be permitted to be larger, but still the body has to provide sufficiency to the head.

I am not advocating for anything, I expect to be history in 10-20 years, so it is not for me to say.  But I am curios on my way out.

Puzzling on this might help to understand what bipedal aliens might be like.

The need for wide hips gone, the need for breasts also perhaps gone.

Without a social pressure to maintain such things they might atrophy.

Further, the need for robust bodies would also perhaps have pressure to go away.

Not really my problem, as I have explained.  But I am happy that they may be able to revive some bird species.

I put this in chat because, it is scientists who are doing the science.  We are bystanders for the most part and might comment on it if we wish and if we are allowed to.

Ending Pending smile

#23 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-20 07:47:06

So, referring to the last 3 posts, if we are in a simulation, why did the creators not put Dyson Spheres at the edge of our ability to detect them and also make a simulation where the rules say we could never get to those Dyson Spheres?  If the purpose of the simulation was to mess with us and keep us chasing windmills, why did they make it the way it is?

They could make a simulation that indicates that we are alone, if someone did make a simulation, and if we do live in a simulation, if so, then why would they do it?

It may actually be real, if you believe that particles that are also waves are real.

Ending Pending smile

Faith???  Why???

Ending Pending smile

#24 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-20 07:05:35

So, I think I can identify 4 basics environments in the universe that is told to me as existing.
1) Stars with Planets.
2) Oort Clouds.
3) Interstellar Rogue processed.
4) Intergalactic.

De we live in a simulation or is what we see out there like what we think we experience here?

If it might make sense that a progression of pattern goes 1, 2, 3, 4, or could do, who if anybody prevents the creation of Dyson Spheres or something similar.?

To some degree we are patterns in the material of matter, but the information of the pattern and not entirely only of the "Flesh" of the matter.

Patterns that replicate living matter, consuming unliving matter and dead matter.  Dead matter perhaps once was incorporated into a "Living" pattern.  Unliving matter is thought to exist as the larger part of matter.

So, if patterns in the material may host the software, which might be related to soul???

Either there are no overlords stopping Dyson spheres, or there is.  If this is a simulation, then it is in error because we should see evidence of Dyson Spheres if it is to be a simulation that we might believe.

Either there is nobody who cares to make Dyson Spheres, or there is someone who stops others from making them.

In the first case perhaps civilizations change to think it is not worth doing before they get the chance to do it, or in the second case, an enforcer can impose its will to stop Dyson Spheres.

But of course there could be the case that almost nobody exists.  And there is almost no pattern replication in the galaxy/universe.

Matter is almost entirely to the march of 9's unliving.

Ending Pending smile

#25 Re: Terraformation » Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? » 2026-05-19 16:41:47

If my just previous post might be right in some cases, I was curious about white dwarfs where it might have happened in the past.

Query: "How close are white dwarfs to us?"
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding

Like

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Distance to the Nearest White Dwarf
The closest known white dwarf to Earth is Sirius B, the faint companion star in the binary system with Sirius A. It is located about 8.6 light-years away Wikipedia+1.

Sirius B is an Earth‑sized remnant of a once‑main‑sequence star, now cooling and radiating only residual heat. Despite its proximity, it is extremely dim to the naked eye and requires a telescope to be seen clearly, often as a faint point of light near the much brighter Sirius A in the night sky Wikipedia.

Other white dwarfs in our galaxy are much farther away, but Sirius B is the nearest example confirmed by observation. In fact, some binary systems containing two white dwarfs — such as the one about 150 light‑years away — are considered potential future Type Ia supernova progenitors ScienceAlert.

Summary:

Nearest white dwarf: Sirius B

Distance from Earth: ~8.6 light‑years

Visibility: Requires a telescope; not visible to the naked eye

This makes Sirius B one of the closest and most accessible white dwarfs for astronomers to study up close.

I am not certain what white dwarf Oort clouds might behave like if they are part of a binary star system.

Query: "How many white dwarfs are there in our galaxy?"
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding

Like

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Number of White Dwarfs in the Milky Way
Astronomers estimate that the Milky Way contains roughly 100 billion white dwarfs — about one for every 100 stars in the galaxy docs.openspaceproject.com.

Why so many?
White dwarfs are the final evolutionary stage for over 95% of stars in the Milky Way, including most Sun-like stars docs.openspaceproject.com. They form when a star exhausts its nuclear fuel, sheds its outer layers, and leaves behind a dense carbon–oxygen core. This process is common for stars with masses between about 0.08 and 8 solar masses docs.openspaceproject.com.

How we know
Because white dwarfs are faint and dim, they are not visible to the naked eye. However, large-scale surveys — such as those using the Hubble Space Telescope and other observatories — have detected them in different regions of the galaxy, including the galactic bulge Science Mission Directorate. By combining these observations with stellar population models, astronomers can extrapolate the total number in the Milky Way.

Key facts
Formation: From the cores of low- to medium-mass stars after they shed their outer layers.

Density: About the mass of the Sun packed into a volume the size of Earth ZME Science.

Fate: Over trillions of years, they will cool and fade into black dwarfs, but no black dwarfs exist yet because the universe is not old enough docs.openspaceproject.com.

In short, the Milky Way is home to around 100 billion white dwarfs, making them one of the most common types of stellar remnants in the galaxy.

So, if some of them had a process like ours where some intelligence managed to expand into a planetary system, and then a Oort Cloud if one existed,   

We think that Rogues come from:
1) Ejection from a baby star system.
2) Form like mini brown dwarf solar systems.
Now also:
3) When a yellow dwarf converts to a white dwarf, then it loses a lot of mass which may partly condense in the Oort cloud, it may be that some of the Oort Cloud will drift away.

So, perhaps Aliens may prefer the Oort and Rogue objects environments and not so much stars.

Just maybe......

I don't know why they would not build Dyson Spheres but if they existed, they might intentionally do panspermia to some worlds orbiting stars, I think, as their homes might drift around the galaxy.

If they wanted to monitor the seeds they planted, they might do a "Gary 7 to those worlds".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Seven
Videos: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ga … ORM=HDRSC4

It seems to me that s simulation could perhaps randomly create genetic mutations of possible value.  But life planted on other worlds might also do it in the actual world.

So, if it was your intention to monitor or guide a "Civilization" you might do Gary 7's.

To collect samples and not bring dangerous pathogens, to your civilization in an Oort Cloud or Rogus, you might use robots.
To confuse the "Civilization" you might also manufacture "Stupid Aliens".  Have them give chicklets to Hill Billies to cover for what you were really doing.  Manufacture ridiculous stories, so to discredit actual mistakes made in collecting DNA and other things.  Make the stories inconsistent as well.


Ending Pending smile

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