LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

SpaceNut · 2005-05-20 10:24:52

The Phantom force haunts physics it slows space probes, altering the trajectory over time.

Astronomers should have been able to exactly predict the trajectory of their spacecrafts by using the standard Newtonian-Einsteinian laws of gravity.
The mystery then got even more interesting when similar effects were reported on two other spacecrafts, Ulysses and Galileo. How can we explain the same anomaly occurring simultaneously in four different spacecrafts? The scientific community was now paying attention.

A solution to the puzzle:

In fact, a solution may have already been proposed a long time ago. It dates back to 1983, when Mordehai Milgrom, a physicist at the Weizmann Institute in Israel, first considered a modification to the standard laws of gravity.
Back then, one of biggest riddles in physics was related to the motion of galaxies. Galaxies were observed to be rotating in a way that physicists could not understand. Milgrom, using a different law of gravity, was able to successfully predict such behaviour.

I wonder if the piece of the puzzle is centripical or centrifugal forces that they speak of?

SpaceNut · 2005-06-06 13:26:11

Indirect evidence of gravity waves from Two Stars Poised to Merge

Believed to be a pair of white dwarfs – the dense ashes of burnt-out stars – rotating around each other at an implied separation is just 50,000 miles – a mere one-fifth the distance between the Earth and the Moon, making this the closest stellar pair ever observed.

Just waiting now for the day when there is only one to observe and the huge burst of energy as they merge. Which should ignite them once more.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-02 05:45:49

Well we are out of helium and what are the results of this over budget probe?
NASA Gravity Probe B Mission Update for 30 September 2005

John Creighton · 2005-10-02 09:55:42

Well we are out of helium and what are the results of this over budget probe?
NASA Gravity Probe B Mission Update for 30 September 2005

The article doesn't say anything about the results.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-10-02 15:20:52

some info on the latest plan for an ESA mission

Hyper is a mission that will investigate two of the fundamental forces of nature: gravity and electromagnetism. For its investigation into gravity, Hyper will precisely map the fabric of space around the Earth, strictly testing Albert Einstein's theory of gravity: General Relativity. It will also investigate electromagnetism. Electromagnetism explains the phenomena that result in everyday electricity and magnetism. Hyper's investigations will consist of the most precise measurement of the so-called 'fine- structure constant'
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM6JPS1VED_index_0.html
Hyper measures about 1.5 by 1.5 metres, with a mass of about 1000 kilograms. At its heart are sophisticated devices known as cold-atom interferometers. These technological innovations are only experimental prototypes at present. However, they are very interesting to the theoretical physics community, and many research laboratories around the world are actively pursuing their improvement at present....The spacecraft’s payload module must be as stable as possible to measure very small movements. This is achieved by eliminating all movable parts and by using no liquids of any sort that could move about creating unwanted movement. The payload module will be mechanically and thermally ‘isolated’ from the service module, so that heat and vibrations cannot pass between them.

Hyper will communicate with Earth once a day for just seven minutes, using the 15-metre radio dish at Kiruna, Sweden. During this time it will transmit the previous day’s scientific data along with information about the spacecraft’s status. The power for the spacecraft will be provided by a circular solar panel that will always point towards the Sun. A battery on board the spacecraft will store energy for the times when Hyper’s orbit unavoidably takes it into the shadow of the Earth.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-03 20:42:18

Some of what the probe has done at this time is to collect data.
NASA's Gravity Probe B Mission Completes Data Collection

Gravity Probe B satellite has been orbiting the Earth for more than 17 months. It used four ultra-precise gyroscopes to generate the data required for this unprecedented test. Fifty weeks worth of data has been downloaded from the spacecraft and relayed to computers in the Mission Operations Center at Stanford University, Stanford, Calif.

Scientists will I hope take there time and painstaking analysis the data. This process will take approximately one year.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-10-06 06:18:03

LISA in new light: success in laser development
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMEJRR1VED_index_0.html
3 October 2005
The joint ESA/NASA Laser Interferometer Space Antenna (LISA) mission will require lasers with extraordinary frequency and power stability. A European team, led by ESA, has now demonstrated a prototype laser that satisfies the requirements of the mission.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-06 06:39:16

Whle measuring the changes between each probe laser detection system to detect gravity waves it will also need at least one or two other points of reference to cancel out motion of each from the other.

SpaceNut · 2005-11-07 06:59:55

Grasping gravity

Scientists believe they are on the verge of measuring gravitational waves, one of the most elusive phenomena in the universe, for the first time.
Albert Einstein predicted the existence of these waves as part of his general theory of relativity.
He argued that when a mass accelerates, it causes the fabric of spacetime around it to stretch and squeeze. The waves have remained elusive to scientists for a simple reason: gravity is such a weak force that it produces extremely tiny waves, and no instrument has usually been sensitive enough to detect them.

Finally looks like funding is moving forward:

scientists at Hanford in the US kicked off an experiment with a $350m (£200m) machine called Ligo which they are confident will bring the first evidence for the existence of Einstein's elusive waves. Next month, Ligo will be joined by the Geo 600 detector in Hanover, which cost €7m (£4.7m) and is being run by scientists from Glasgow, Cardiff, Birmingham and Hanover universities.

Article also accounts what has been tried thus far not counting other mentions of measuring this effect from geo satelites as frame drag and of course Gravity B which is still in operation but all data collection has stopped from that billions of dollar probe.

SpaceNut · 2005-11-09 22:18:55

Sure would be nice to hear statements with regards to the data as captured by the gravity B probe but could we have done this another way? It appears as a yes, Einstein's relativity theory proven with the 'lead' of a pencil by a team of scientists which has now proven it can be done in the lab using an ultra-thin material called Graphene.

Palomar · 2005-11-17 11:17:10

Sure would be nice to hear statements with regards to the data as captured by the gravity B probe but could we have done this another way? It appears as a yes, Einstein's relativity theory proven with the 'lead' of a pencil by a team of scientists which has now proven it can be done in the lab using an ultra-thin material called Graphene.

*I'll have to re-read that article. Meanwhile, an update:

Gravity Probe B has had a year of data accumulation. Scientists poring over/analyzing the "mountains" of data.

Notable quote about Graphene, from SpaceNut's article:

Graphene is created by extracting one atom thick slivers of graphite via a process similar to that of tracing with a pencil.
Professor Geim, said: "To understand implications of the relativity theory, researchers often have to go considerable lengths, but our work shows that it is possible to set up direct experiments to test relativistic ideas. In theory, this will speed up possible discoveries and probably save billions of pounds now that tests can be set up using Graphene and relatively inexpensive laboratory equipment."

Cool. It saves money, why not?

--Cindy

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-03-03 15:06:26

Finally looks like funding is moving forward:
scientists at Hanford in the US kicked off an experiment with a $350m (£200m) machine called Ligo which they are confident will bring the first evidence for the existence of Einstein's elusive waves. Next month, Ligo will be joined by the Geo 600 detector in Hanover, which cost €7m (£4.7m) and is being run by scientists from Glasgow, Cardiff, Birmingham and Hanover universities.
Article also accounts what has been tried thus far not counting other mentions of measuring this effect from geo satelites as frame drag and of course Gravity B which is still in operation but all data collection has stopped from that billions of dollar probe.

Sadly it seems the latest NASA cuts will delay several key science missions indefinitely, including the Terrestrial Planet Finder (TPF), a mission to detect and study Earth-like planets, Laser Interferometer Space Antenna (LISA), a mission to search for gravitational waves, and Constellation-X, a mission to study black holes.

Statement by Mary L. Cleave - House Science Committee Hearing on NASA FY 2007 Science Budget
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19813
The Space Interferometry Mission (SIM), which is planned for launch in 2015/2016, remains in formulation, and the Terrestrial Planet Finder (TPF) mission will be deferred. A review of Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy (SOFIA) is being conducted in 2006, to determine whether it is appropriate to continue development of this project. If NASA decides to continue the project, we will incorporate the necessary funds into the FY 2007 budget via the Agency Operating Plan. The NuSTAR mission and the Keck observatory outriggers are cancelled. Finally, the Beyond Einstein Program is beginning a process of prioritization, with a goal of selecting a mission (either LISA, Con-X or Joint Dark Energy Mission) to enter development later this decade.

Seems the latest NASA budget chopped many things down. We have some news on those Cancelled/Delayed indefinitely - the cosmology programme, NASA's Beyond Einstein is under review and 2 of its missions LISA ( Laser Interferometer Space Antenna ), to search for ripples in SpaceTime called gravitational waves and ConstellationX might be delayed indefinitely or cancelled

divert cash from science into shuttle
missions – LISA (Laser Interferometer Space Antenna), to search for ripples in space-time called gravitational waves, and Constellation-X, to study black holes – will be delayed indefinitely

chat · 2006-03-03 17:33:01

Yang Liwei Rocket,

Sad to think NASA is spending so much money trying to prove Einstein gravity waves, when data from the gravitation tugs on geo satellites could prove if its even necessary or not.

I guess having connected tin cans in space for nearly 5 years after/if its ever completed is much more important than seeing if the universe has planets or moons like the earth.

Maybe NASA should include a welfare module in its plan for the space station

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-04 09:04:11

Here's what was up with LISA that big LaserInterferometrySpaceAntenna,

yes it looks like it will be axed

the point of LISA was not just to find gravitational waves, the whole purpose of LISA has very little to do with proving the existence of gravity waves - its real purpose is to utilize the waves to do astronomical observations , LISA would be used to look at pulsars, binary stars and blackholes

SpaceNut · 2007-04-15 20:14:30

Finally Gravity Probe B results.
Einstein was right: space and time bend

After half a century, seven cancellations and $700m, a mission to test his theory about the universe has finally confirmed that the man was a mastermind - or at least half proved it. Confirmed yesterday 'to a precision of better than 1 per cent' the assertion Einstein made 90 years ago - that an object such as the Earth does indeed distort the fabric of space and time.

So what is the likelyhood that he is half wrong, I would say give it up and save the money for what can we do with the information....

C M Edwards · 2007-04-17 15:34:23

So what is the likelyhood that he is half wrong, I would say give it up and save the money....

Where's your spirit of skepticism!

Why, I just recently started an experiment testing a prediction of general relativity that has never been investigated using the accuracy possible with modern lasers and computer controls. I have a hypothesis that old Albert overlooked something in his original formulation of General Relativity (and, more specifically, that modern theorists are overlooking something in their revival of the Cosmological Constant), and my odds of being right are about 50%, too. Confirmation of frame dragging gets me to 51%.

So let the Gravity B team play.

SpaceNut · 2007-04-17 18:35:29

Frame drag was reported through satelite observations IIRC last year. I will search put I think I posted it here on newmars....

SpaceNut · 2007-06-18 15:19:14

ESA and NASA sign agreement that define the terms of the cooperation on James Webb Space Telescope and LISA Pathfinder

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-14 04:53:30

NASA's Fermi hunts for gravitational waves from monster black holes

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA … s_999.html

New Mars Forums

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#51 2005-05-20 10:24:52

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#52 2005-06-06 13:26:11

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#53 2005-10-02 05:45:49

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#54 2005-10-02 09:55:42

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#55 2005-10-02 15:20:52

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#56 2005-10-03 20:42:18

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#57 2005-10-06 06:18:03

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#58 2005-10-06 06:39:16

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#59 2005-11-07 06:59:55

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#60 2005-11-09 22:18:55

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#61 2005-11-17 11:17:10

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#62 2006-03-03 15:06:26

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#63 2006-03-03 17:33:01

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#64 2006-03-04 09:04:11

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#65 2007-04-15 20:14:30

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#66 2007-04-17 15:34:23

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#67 2007-04-17 18:35:29

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#68 2007-06-18 15:19:14

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

#69 2022-04-14 04:53:30

Re: LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies

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