Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

cjchandler · 2007-01-04 17:19:23

I may be mistaken, but I thought that on the moon the rotovator would have a tip speed of zero in regard to the lunar surface.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-01-21 03:49:30

You are, by the way, linking to a site by that gaetano goofball, Yang
Yang is perfectly able to read my article and understand by himself that it is a concept, not a project by ESA (that, however, may have something like it in its drawers)
"my" ArianeX may born sooner than CLV and in half time than CaLV
also, the moon mission suggested with the ArianeX is more rational than ESAS plan
the real problems to start a plan like this are... funds, political decisions and courage... three things that our governments lack
.

Russian and European firms are pursuing a joint program to develop heavy-duty launch vehicles. The program, known as Oural

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russi … e_999.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-02-18 11:06:21

A more honest view of ESA's Mars mission
Exploration falling apart ?

cIclops · 2007-02-18 12:04:52

More unsubstantiated NSF trash talk

GCNRevenger · 2007-02-23 07:03:07

Absolutely. With the recent science budget freeze (which affects the NSF) and associated problems, I am sure they are tearing their hair out in jealousy of NASA's more-or-less intact budget. If NASA falls, thats a billion or two or three more for them.

cIclops · 2007-02-23 07:41:44

Absolutely. With the recent science budget freeze (which affects the NSF) and associated problems, I am sure they are tearing their hair out in jealousy of NASA's more-or-less intact budget. If NASA falls, thats a billion or two or three more for them.

What science budget freeze? National Science Foundation budget request is $6.43 billion in FY 2008, 6.8% above 2007 and 45 percent above 2001's $4.43 billion level. If NASA had that increase they would be over the moon (pun intended)

BTW
a) I was referring to that other forum with the same acronym that has been trashing Ares with fake docs and whatever else they can make up about it.
b) Isn't this thread about ESA heavy lift? not that there's much to say about it

GCNRevenger · 2007-02-24 17:55:56

Because of congressional indecision, a great deal of the federal science budget was not passed, so in lieu last years budget is "continued" until the new one is passed. I'm sure its been a big headache for NSF et al, since they planned for the increased funding but didn't get it. They didn't get what they requested as far as I know.

publiusr · 2007-05-04 15:59:32

It gets worse:
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Weldo … m_999.html

The Euros, on the other hand...
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Aur … y_999.html

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-05-06 20:48:23

There could be new leader in France

It looks like Nicolas Sarkozy was headed for victory over Socialist Segolene Royal.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/12/01/images/ … 721701.jpg

I image this could improve US-French relations and he seems to be more to the right,
will he support NASA's new VSE ?
photo with bush

Here is a video talking about science technology
I wonder what this means for European space exploration
(does anyone speak French )
>>> DonPanic where are u ?

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-05-19 10:47:11

A giant leap for space activities in Europe: ministers to adopt European Space Policy in Brussels
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMICLV681F_index_0.html
16 May 2007
ESA PR 20-2007. Ministers in charge of space activities in ESA's Member States and those responsible for the internal market, industry and research in the European Union’s Competitiveness Council, are meeting in Brussels on Tuesday 22 May to adopt the European Space Policy

cIclops · 2007-05-19 14:32:58

A giant leap for space activities in Europe: ministers to adopt European Space Policy in Brussels

Do let us know when they have decided what it is.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-05-26 05:22:33

Do let us know when they have decided what it is.

Ask DonPanic, eurolauncher and gaetanomarano for a translation - I don't speak EuroBabble

gaetanomarano · 2007-06-02 15:28:34

.

a very good news (via raumfahrer.net/forum) from Europe:

the new German space travels' chief Johann Dietrich Woerner wants independent european manned flights launched with the Ariane5 or with "an orbital glider, which does not only land like an airplane, would be best but also like an airplane starts"

http://de.news.yahoo.com/02062007/3/deu … paeer.html

so, a small "ESA Space Shuttle" (for cheap and easy LEO flights) could really born, someday...

...or (at least) something like my "arianecev":

http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/010arianecev.html

.

Fledi · 2007-06-02 18:19:32

I guess by that you refer to the Hopper, a concept for a reusable first stage of a TSTO that would start horizontally on a sled and land on wheels. I just hope it doesn't end like the Saenger concept, it sucks when you make design studies about a superb vehicle for all your life and in the end it is never built.

gaetanomarano · 2007-06-03 01:04:27

I guess by that you refer to the Hopper...

not the Hopper (that's a small cargo-only shuttle concept) nor the old Hermes since Mr. Woerner wants a vehicle able to take off like an airplane (with an SSO-like carrier) to launch their manned spaceflights from Germany

.

Fledi · 2007-06-03 18:39:54

Hmm haven't heard any details about such a new concept, but in any case I am sure it wouldn't take off from Germany, both the inclination and geography (on the west side of the Eurasian continent, with many cities to the east) are not well suited for that.
But going with winged, hypersonic craft from the Spanish coast down to the Sahara and making the orbital hop over it was being talked about, if memory serves.

gaetanomarano · 2007-06-03 19:12:47

...haven't heard any details about such a new concept...

since no new concept exists now... ESA should develop it from scratch (like NASA with Orion) but starting from the well known and successful Space Shuttle experience and the european scale-models' tests for the german and italian cargo-only shuttles:
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Ita … e_999.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1196314,00.html

...in any case I am sure it wouldn't take off from Germany...

take of from Germany should be not a problem if the new vehicle will have enough propellent to reach te right orbit ... however, the main problem is build the shuttle, no matter the place used to launch

.

cIclops · 2007-06-03 23:04:14

ESA canceled Hermes when they started to get an idea of the real cost, not the one sold to them during presentations. As this is being pushed by a German politician, he's probably being sold a derivative of the HOTOL Sanger spaceplane. Just wait till he gets the cost estimates for that baby!

ps wrong topic as there's no way this going to be a HLV

Fledi · 2007-06-04 07:48:13

Actually Woerner is the CEO of the DLR, that's the German space agency, so more like Griffin than just some politician.
According to that link from gaetanomarano's post he just asked for a new vehicle launched on top of the Ariane 5, then he added "but best would be a space glider that takes off and lands horizontally".

The first suggestion seems to be realistic, Europe is long overdue developing its own manned spacecraft. I hope they will finally come up with something that is developed until it works and not stop at half way again.

As for more advanced, fully reusable launchers, that should be developed on relatively low budgets, until we have something that can be built with moderate development costs. If the shuttle shows anything, then that you can waste a lot of money by betting on the wrong horse.
My personal favorites for accomplishing something in that sector are the altspacers, they have more freedom to experiment since they're using their own money.

cIclops · 2007-06-04 08:35:26

Actually Woerner is the CEO of the DLR, that's the German space agency, so more like Griffin than just some politician.

Danke, meine deutsche ist nicht sehr gut

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-08-25 15:54:43

Europe does have plans to explore the Moon and to use this knowledge to increase there prescence in space.

I might have been wrong about the 100 tonne figure, wiki says :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_M

Payload to LEO
90,000kg (198,000lb)

Payload to GTO
45,000 kg (99,000lb)

Launch History
Status Not developed

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-08-28 15:30:12

Arianespace: super rockets or super sales force?

Jean-Yves Le Gall, the CEO of Arianespace, has every reason to brag, as he did in the Paris newspaper Le Figaro on August 17th. He proudly points to the fact that his firm has launched something like two thirds of all the operational commercial satellites. Ariane has recovered nicely from its early trouble with the Ariane 5 and it seems that they will continue to dominate the commercial satellite market for the foreseeable future.
There are lots of reasons for this, but Americans should not kid themselves: Ariane is not successful because the Europeans—and especially the French—provide it with government subsidies. All of the world’s operational launchers are, to one extent or another, subsidized by governments. Perhaps, if Elon Musk’s SpaceX Falcon series of rockets is successful, we will see the first unsubsidized space access system in human history.
On the other hand, the Europeans should not fool themselves: Ariane is not a success because it is technically superior to its competitors. Getting satellites into orbit is not easy, but it does not require the high degree of what may be termed “elegant engineering” that goes into an Ariane. The Atlas and the Proton launch vehicles get the job done just as effectively.

EuroLauncher · 2007-10-09 03:11:30

Here an article on MSR

ESA Open To Mars Sample Return
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/st … 253&page=1

Ariane M debate
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums … 8&posts=72

Europe mulls human launch system ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6260724.stm

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 08:14:46

If they can get methane to work, methane would be possible middle ground between kerosene and liquid hydrogen. Higher specific impulse with better density, however it also comes with the disadvantages, cryogenic tankage and low density versus kerosene.
I still don't see France/Russia making a real heavy lifter, because they wouldn't have any use for it. Its not like they are going to the Moon or Mars any time soon.

If Putin wanted to go to the Moon, what really is there to stop him? He has a docile rubber-stamp to approve everything he requests, and can rewrite the Russian constitution on a whim, and if the reporters want to stay above ground, then they'll be cheering him all the way. As for other uses for the heavy lifter, Russia could request the construction of a space "dacha" in orbit with a launches of a heavy lifter, if anyone complains, they go straight to Siberia.

EuroLauncher · 2007-10-21 04:02:23

You are, by the way, linking to a site by that gaetano goofball, Yang
Yang is perfectly able to read my article and understand by himself that it is a concept, not a project by ESA (that, however, may have something like it in its drawers)
"my" ArianeX may born sooner than CLV and in half time than CaLV
also, the moon mission suggested with the ArianeX is more rational than ESAS plan
the real problems to start a plan like this are... funds, political decisions and courage... three things that our governments lack
.

Jupiter or Saturn? Dark Energy or X-rays? ESA Picks Space Mission Short List
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007 … -satu.html

Today's short list has been narrowed down from a list of 50 proposals, and includes:
-Laplace: A launch of three orbital platforms, in conjunction with NASA, that would study Jupiter's Europa moon with an eye towards possible habitability, as well answer other questions about the relationship of the giant planet to its moons.
-Tandem: An orbiter and several land probes aimed at Saturn's Titan and Enceladus, building on data gained from Cassini's recent visits, and studying the origins, interiors, and astrobiological potential of the two moons. This too would be be a joint project with NASA if selected.
-Cross-scale: A 12-spacecraft project launched into near-Earth space, making simultaneous measurements of plasma (electrically charged gas particles surrounding the planet), studying shocks, turbulence, and energy propagation. This would be a joint project with the Japanese Space and Exploration Agency (JAXA)
-Marco Polo: A mission that would land on a near-Earth asteroid, and bring back a sample, with the aim of studying the origin and evolution of these bodies, and of Earth itself. Also a JAXA joint project.
-Dune and SPACE: Two separate observatory proposals for studying dark matter and dark energy.
-Plato: A joint ground- and space-based mission that would focus on finding and studying the characteristics of planets orbiting distant stars, more efficiently and with more detail than is possible today.
-Spicia: A next-generation space-based infrared telescope, used to answer questions about planetary formation and the universe's origin. Another JAXA cooperation.
-XEUS, or X-ray Evolving Universe Spectroscopy: An X-ray telescope that could study the growth of massive black holes, the evolution of galaxies, and other big questions about the universe's origin and evolution.

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#76 2007-01-04 17:19:23

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#77 2007-01-21 03:49:30

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#78 2007-02-18 11:06:21

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#79 2007-02-18 12:04:52

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#80 2007-02-23 07:03:07

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#81 2007-02-23 07:41:44

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#82 2007-02-24 17:55:56

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#83 2007-05-04 15:59:32

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#84 2007-05-06 20:48:23

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#85 2007-05-19 10:47:11

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#86 2007-05-19 14:32:58

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#87 2007-05-26 05:22:33

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#88 2007-06-02 15:28:34

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#89 2007-06-02 18:19:32

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#90 2007-06-03 01:04:27

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#91 2007-06-03 18:39:54

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#92 2007-06-03 19:12:47

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#93 2007-06-03 23:04:14

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#94 2007-06-04 07:48:13

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#95 2007-06-04 08:35:26

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#96 2007-08-25 15:54:43

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#97 2007-08-28 15:30:12

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#98 2007-10-09 03:11:30

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#99 2007-10-09 08:14:46

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

#100 2007-10-21 04:02:23

Re: Europe build a Heavy lifter ( 100 tonne Euro-HLLV ) ?

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