God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

Palomar · 2002-12-24 16:04:12

I still don't care. I am enjoying my christian and heathen holiday, and I really don't want to have to play Alt's silly games about guessing why I'm wrong, or thinking about Pagan menstrual fluid.
Shhhh! I'm trying to hear Jingle Bells on my transistor radio. What kind of Christmas songs do Pagans listen to? Oh... that's right... they don't have any.

*"Jingle Bells" isn't a Christian song; it's secular.

As for "Pagan menstrual fluid," you missed the point: The recognition was of all female fertility, regardless of religious/spiritual orientation; biological reproduction and resultant life -- pure and simple.

As for "I really don't want to have to play Alt's silly games about guessing why I'm wrong"...well, are you incapable of being wrong?

And I'm sure Pagans don't listen to Christmas songs, considering they feel Christmas is a superimposed intrusion so near to the original holiday celebration of winter solstice. But I guess you'd have to ask a Pagan to know what kind of music they're listening to around this time of year, to be certain. I doubt they're any more inclined to want to hear "Away in a Manger" or "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear" anymore than I want to listen to Muslim songs during Ramadan.

Anyway:

::Happy Holidays everyone!:: (no matter how you choose to celebrate).

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-24 17:07:44

You're really puting too much of the blame about this holiday on ALL Christians. It was the Pope who decided to have the holiday at this time of year, for the simple point of enticing the Pagans to join; same thing with making the sabbath a Sunday instead of Saturday. The pope also let preists rape little boys for centuries without any repercussion whatsoever.

I'm a Protestant, and because I don't accept the Pope's authority, I hope you will stop ragging on me now. I can accept and was surprised to know that most of our Christmas traditions were Pagan in origin. Thank you for the educational moment, Cindy. No offense intended towards Pagans.

And as for guessing why I'm wrong, why doesn't somebody just tell me? I got out of Alt's little quote that there are 3 sides to everything, and rarely are they always the same. I was 110% sure that my beliefs were where the 3 intersected. A witty answer to an overly mystical question.

clark · 2002-12-30 09:51:34

You are wrong Cal becuase if what you "believe" is true, correct, and right all at the same time,it would be self-evident" to all who looked upon it.

This thread is a testimony to the fallacy of your conviction, and Alt's simple description serve to show the problems with your assumption.

Do we need to argue gravity or it's effects? I would hope not, for it is self evident in exsistence and in it's effect upon us. It is a "truth". Saying that "gravity" exsists, is correct". yet to decide that the exsistence of gravity is "right" is wholly subjective.

Your beliefs may pass one, or even two of the requirements set forth by Alt, however it does, and every belief does as well, fail the test of "right". Being right presupposes a certainty of effect that can never be proved.

Prove without doubt that your god is more right than mine. Prove that your truth is more self evident. Religious strife, for which many blame religion itself as the culprit, is the embodiment of this argument.

And for the pope comment, it is a bit crude and unneccessary

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-31 01:40:40

And for the pope comment, it is a bit crude and unneccessary

Why? I just said that I (and every Protestant) don't accept the authority of the pope. It's not being "rebellious", it's just a part of our doctrine.

And you're right, I can't PROVE that your god is any more right than my God, but I still know that mine is right. I have to in order to accept it as my truth.

clark · 2002-12-31 10:37:52

The comment that was crude and unneccssary was related to your connection of the pope and child abuse. Show evidence of your slander (that's what it is at this point) or shut up.

I'm happy to hear you have such conviction at such a young age.

Instead of proving my god is more right, or yours is more right, try proving that a god, any god, exsists.

Our concepts are derived from constructs. The way we understand our place, others, the universe, philosphy, religion, likes, dislikes, etc. are all formulated from individual and shared human constructs.

After you have established that your belief is "right", what do you have? Who are you then? Are you more than the rest of us who don't believe as you? Are we less becuase we don't see what you see? This conviction of faith, what does it teach you? What insights do you have that are denied the rest of us? Why wouldn't someone believe as you? Do you find it easier to talk with or understand others who do not believe as you? If not, then why is it even important to begin with?

Echus_Chasma · 2002-12-31 15:42:37

It was the Pope who decided to have the holiday at this time of year, for the simple point of enticing the Pagans to join

No it was'nt. The first Roman Caesar who became a Christian (his name has just slipped me) changed it to that date to reduce the publicity for the pagan holiday. So therefore, your comment about the Pope is completely derogatory and un-necessary.

soph · 2002-12-31 15:48:25

constantine?

Echus_Chasma · 2002-12-31 15:57:45

Thats the one.

soph · 2002-12-31 16:05:13

cal, if you dont accept the popes authority, then why do you celebrate christmas in december?

in any case, you dont hear pagan songs the same way you dont hear classical music on your average radio station (there are classical music stations, but thats not the point)--most people in the West are christian or jewish (at least in the US). these people want to hear their own songs, and the radio stations are going to play what people want to hear, basically what cindy said.

and like clark said, wheres the proof of god? he hasnt visited me lately.

AltToWar · 2003-01-01 14:34:00

for the record, modrn Paganism is more closely related to jewish mysticism than it is to any ancient pagan religion.

the real practices and stories of the pre-christion pegans are long lost.

AltToWar · 2003-01-01 14:35:45

My family has traced my geneology back all the way to Charlamain.

That makes me a direct descendant of jesus christ.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-01 23:07:55

Why do I have to PROVE my God's existence to you? If I had conclusive evidence that my God existed, then there would be no point in believing. You have to have faith, because God, at this point, isn't a tangible being. I can't take you to where God is sitting and make you talk to him, soph. And as bad as it sounds, you just have to believe.

I don't think people that hold beliefs other than mine are bad, or "lower" than me, but I do know that I will be rewarded in the afterlife, according to my beliefs that I hold as a truth, and the others will go someplace I wouldn't want to visit anytime soon, and it isn't Abu Dhabi.

cal, if you dont accept the popes authority, then why do you celebrate christmas in december?

Because I don't know that the holiday's historical accuracy is all that important. Sadly, Christmas is kind of a sheperded holiday. If everyone celebrated Christmas in April, I would probably celebrate it then too. I think the creator of the universe isn't too picky about when we celebrate the birthday of our Savior. It's fundamentals that matter to me.

My family has traced my geneology back all the way to Charlamain.
That makes me a direct descendant of jesus christ.

Don't you feel special...

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-02 00:29:04

I think the creator of the universe isn't too picky about when we celebrate the birthday of our Savior

I always wondered... do other alien civilizations have a Savior, or do you believe that we are the only living civilization in the universe?

Preston · 2003-01-02 01:53:37

What do you mean by direct descendant?

AltToWar · 2003-01-02 03:44:32

I think the creator of the universe isn't too picky about when we celebrate the birthday of our Savior
I always wondered... do other alien civilizations have a Savior, or do you believe that we are the only living civilization in the universe?

Jesus went to all the other aliens after he died on the cross. He rode on a sled with 8 tiny raindeer. This was all after he visited the Native Americans, and the Chineese.

I suggest the Mars Society attempt to reverse engineer this jesus technology. Also, it would be nice to turn water into wine.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-02 06:10:54

Also, it would be nice to turn water into wine.

Hey... I can turn wine into water... does that help?

soph · 2003-01-02 07:51:39

so what you are really saying cal, is that you merely follow what a person wrote down, and then was later interpreted by the catholic church, which was later interpreted by someone else, and someone else, and so on.

well, im convinced.

Palomar · 2003-01-02 09:32:16

Also, it would be nice to turn water into wine.
Hey... I can turn wine into water... does that help?

*I'd rather have wine turned into chocolate. Thank you.

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 14:51:44

so what you are really saying cal, is that you merely follow what a person wrote down, and then was later interpreted by the catholic church, which was later interpreted by someone else, and someone else, and so on.
well, im convinced.

It's all fundamentals, soph. All I need to know are the fundamentals about how to get where I'm going, and the rest is purely speculation. My faith's most important teachings are all within the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts.

Alt wrote:
Jesus went to all the other aliens after he died on the cross. He rode on a sled with 8 tiny raindeer. This was all after he visited the Native Americans, and the Chineese.
I suggest the Mars Society attempt to reverse engineer this jesus technology. Also, it would be nice to turn water into wine.

Wait... let me get this right. I say one over-read thing about the pope and child abuse and get a harsh reply from Clark, but Alt says the most sacreligious thing I've ever heard and scoots away unscathed? Shame on you, Alt.

clark · 2003-01-02 14:59:41

the Pope is a real person Cal. Jesus Christ may or may not be.

You're not Catholic, so you have no real appreciation for how inflamatory your idle comment is. You might as well talk about how your parents like to sodmize farm animals and make your siblings watch.

So let me understand something here Cal- the Bible, the most holy of holies, which is inspired by God, has only a few sections that are really important? So the rest is what, God just talking for the sake of it? How do you decide that one book is more important than another? God granted visions, or are you that smart?

You have a holy testament that you pick and choose from? :0

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 15:07:03

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Those testaments are the fundamentals parts of salvation. The rest are important teachings that are not to be quickly discarded; in fact, most people like the teaching of the other books, even if they don't accept the parts about Jesus, salvation, etc. But being a Christian, I find those books a bit more important that the philosophical and moral parts of the bible. But only a little more important.

You're not Catholic, so you have no real appreciation for how inflamatory your idle comment is.

I have friends who are Catholic, and we can talk about this stuff just fine. Protestants are just Catholics without Popes or Saints. The fact is, and you are free to disagree with it, that I don't accept the pope as being my middle man to God. That's all. I don't see why you're so hurt.

clark · 2003-01-02 15:14:32

Talkign abotu Catholism is one thing, linking the infallible leader to henious crimes, such as child abuse, is slander unless based on factual evidence.

Would you make such a snide comment like "my pastor looked the other way when children were being abused" without any evidence? How you talk with your friends is dictated by how you know them- I am fairly certain you wouldn't be so flippant about their mothers, would you?

Protestants are not Catholics. In fact, according to Catholiscm you're going to hell, so I see little purpose in you claiming any kind of kinship with Catholism.

Catholism, according to it's tenet's is the only religion with a Covenant with god- all the others have no such covenant.

Catholism isn't based on the need of the Pope- the Pope is merely the physical representation of God's will on Earth- the same way that you decide that parts of the bible are representations of God's will.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 15:16:33

Were you raised Catholic, or are you just argueing for the sake of arguement?

clark · 2003-01-02 15:20:29

Tell me how it matters and then I will tell you.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 15:24:02

You passionately defend Catholicism while at the same time are afraid to admit if one religion is right or wrong. It bothers me because I don't really know where you stand.

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