unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

SpaceNut · 2007-01-13 21:29:56

I have broken out this portion of the waste recovery thread to work on the consumable resupply. Below are some reference threads ect...

ESAS

unmanned orion block use for cargo: for mars

Ares I (CLV) - status

esas.report.1.17.jpg

No one said "100% sustainability needs to force unrealistic, inefficient, irrational empty-headed "moral" environmentalism on early exploration and presence on Mars." nor can we even do it here on earth. Also an open loop system where constant resupply is also unrealistic because of cost as well.

This the initial trigger and followup that illustrated the need to figure out how many would be needed for a mission to mars. This is also varied depending on the length of mission and crew count until we reach the point of permanent stay.

I wonder how much room two years worth of food would take compared to the facilities to grow new food? Seems to me that if they were serious about growing food, they'd need to bring along an agricultural specialist or two. Growing food is fairly labor intensive. You'd probably need a full time farmer to take care of the food needs. One person growing food is one less person exploring Mars.

By my estimate, the equipment needed to grow food for a crew of six would take about as much mass as a second hab.
It should be sent seperately, and preferrably wait until well into the first mission. And its setup and operation will take more than one person's man-hours of work per day - it should be spread between two or more people.
If you're just scouting, it's best to leave the greenhouse on Earth.

Sending supplies from Earth many not be anywhere near as expensive as you think; when we have a reusable lander, fueled exclusively by Martian fuel, that saves unmanned payload modules from needing landing gear, parachutes, landing engines, etc.
A single Ares-I could launch a payload module, just a pressurized can with a navigation bus and an aerobrake shield, to Mars orbit for pickup by the RLV. Such a payload module could accommodate masses from at least five to as much as ten metric tonnes, in one throw by a relatively inexpensive rocket.
A big tank of Ammonia for nitrogen, food/clothing/spares, a brand new long-range rover, a 100kW class nuclear reactor, a new ISRU plant, maybe even a small inflatable habitat/greenhouse/workshop. Then later on, when Ares-I rockets start becoming too expensive, we transition to a 20MT class RLV on the Earth end too.

SpaceNut · 2007-01-13 21:35:16

The use of the ISS and progress resupply could yield some base line numbers for the consumable needs for the 3 leags of the mission depending on crew count and stay time on the surface.
Granted the progress also does deliver other stuff and fuel but this is at least an initail attempt to compile some data.

SpaceNut · 2007-01-14 22:44:14

Use of the
Russian Progress Spacecraft and the shuttle accomidated the resupply needs of the ISS.

The Progress Cargo Module -- which is similar in construction to the Soyuz Orbital Module -- can carry up to 1,700 kilograms (3,748 pounds) of supplies to the Space Station in a pressurized volume of about 6 cubic meters (212 cubic feet). Once the Progress docks with the Space Station, the crew enters the Cargo Module through the docking hatch.

After the cargo is removed and before the Progress undocks, the crew refills it with trash, unneeded equipment and wastewater, which will burn up with the spacecraft when it re-enters the Earth's atmosphere. The Cargo Module can hold 1,000 to 1,700 kilograms (2,205 to 3,748 pounds) of trash.

Refueling Module
In place of the Soyuz Descent Module, the Progress has a Refueling Module. The Progress M1 Refueling Module has eight propellant tanks that can hold up to 1,740 kilograms (3,836 pounds) of fuel, depending on how much weight is carried in the Cargo Module. Four of the tanks contain fuel, while the other four contain the fuel's oxidizer. The Progress M has four tanks -- two for fuel and two for oxidizer -- and two water tanks. The M1 has no water tanks.

cIclops · 2007-01-15 05:01:27

Orion is primarily designed for crew not cargo. The cargo version has been considered for ISS deliveries as a fallback for COTS, it's more of a study than a planned option. It is not for lunar cargo and certainly not for Mars cargo, it would be far too inefficient. That's the job of Ares V.

Orion will launch on Ares I, both vehicles will be expensive - they are designed to maximise safety and reliability for crew transfer to LEO and beyond.

SpaceNut · 2007-01-15 07:18:21

Started the thread based on first quote by GCNRevenger and the need to look towards the future with what we will have. Will it be like we have now for the situation where we must sell congress to fund based on doing derived vehicles and delivery...

Current flight use to ISS for these.

2007

January 18 - Progress M-59 (24P)
April 9 - Soyuz TMA-10 (14S)
May 12 - Progress M-60 (25P)
September 3 - Progress M-61 (26P)
October 6 - Soyuz TMA-11 (15S)
November 15 - Progress M-62 (27P)

2008

[/b]January 29 - Progress M-63 (28P)[/b]
April 8 - Soyuz TMA-12 (16S)

Based on this we have just 5 deliveries for what would be half of the 26 month cycle to use for a good guidline to figure how many supplies would need to be brought for the journey to mars.

Add in any shuttle number and it grows...

GCNRevenger · 2007-01-15 08:13:33

Orion is primarily designed for crew not cargo. The cargo version has been considered for ISS deliveries as a fallback for COTS, it's more of a study than a planned option. It is not for lunar cargo and certainly not for Mars cargo, it would be far too inefficient. That's the job of Ares V.
Orion will launch on Ares I, both vehicles will be expensive - they are designed to maximise safety and reliability for crew transfer to LEO and beyond.

Heavy cargo yeah, but if you take away the need for a lander/parachutes/etc then Ares-I is big enough to make at least 5MT supply missions to Mars orbit.

SpaceNut · 2007-01-23 09:38:43

Data for Progress M-59

Progress M-59 delivered 2.56 tons of various cargoes, including 1120 kg of propellant, 51 kg of oxygen, 266 kg of foodstuff, 344 kg of atmospheric revitalization system equipment (including Electron system oxygen generators and solid fuel oxygen generators), 100 kg of crew health care aids, parcels for the crew. Three hundred and seventeen kilograms of cargo are designed for the ISS US Segment.

SpaceNut · 2007-02-22 06:36:56

So lets work on the amount of consumables for crew support for a mission that will probably not have a greenhouse on first mission and would be one way. Lets get some really numbers for its volume of space making believe that the next crew would handle return for the first crew back to Earth but be able to stay until the next to keep coming every aproximate 2 years.

Lets use the crew size of 4 to generate the first pass numbers. The ISS has had a crew of 2 for a good amount of time of a 2 year period with the means to resupply the ISS being the Progress M or M1. During this time frame there has been at least 10 ships not counting any shuttle delivery as a minimum to base the initial numbers on.

can carry up to 1,700 kilograms (3,748 pounds) of supplies to the Space Station in a pressurized volume of about 6 cubic meters (212 cubic feet)

About 110 pounds of oxygen, 2,784 pounds of dry cargo and almost 250 pounds of water are probably average since the numbers for each amount does change because of shuttle deliveries but no matter the max amount is still 1,700 kilograms (3,748 pounds) within a 6 cubic meters (212 cubic feet)space.

So for a crew of 2, the total require volume is 60 cubic meters and the mass is 17 mT for a 2 year period of time.

SpaceNut · 2007-03-28 06:13:00

So how will we resupply as the journey extends for longer durations and distnces from earth?
Engineers create SpaceNet--the supply chain; Network of nodes could ensure delivery to moon

By 2020, NASA plans to establish a long-term human presence on the moon, potentially centered on an outpost to be built at the rim of the Shackleton crater near the lunar South Pole.
To make such a scenario possible, a reliable stream of consumables such as fuel, food and oxygen, spare parts and exploration equipment would have to make its way from the Earth to the moon as predictably as any Earth-based delivery system. Or more predictably: One missed shipment could have devastating consequences when you can't easily replenish essential supplies.

This graphic shows a series of nodes that act as a source, point of consumption, or transfer point for an interplanetary supply chain. Earth, Moon, and Mars are shown in correct relative size, but interplanetary distances are not to size. Image courtesy / MIT Space Logistics Program

MIT Space Logistics Project

SpaceNut · 2007-07-12 07:44:10

Lots of details as to what they eat and how much has been sent to the station and more...in this link

NasaExplores lessons

Since the ISS was first inhabited, over 10,000 meals have been eaten, and over 6,804 kilograms (15,000 pounds) of food have been sent to keep the residents healthy.
In a 180-day mission (6 months), given a 10-day rotating menu, the same meals will be served 18 times-and that's why nutritionists and astronauts take great care when planning the foods that travel into space; nobody wants to be bored with dinners.
American food stored on the ISS is prepared at the Space Food Systems Laboratory at Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. The food is designed to stay fresh for 9 to 12 months

ASEN 5016 Lecture 5: Nutrition and Temperature Regulation

Average male astronaut over 30 daily energy requirement is 2875 cal
3. Water Supply in Space
Total Daily Consumables ~22.5 kg per person per day (including hygiene water)
Total estimated consumables per person per year ~8213 kg
· Food = 219 kg
· Oxygen = 292 kg
· Potable Water = 1132 kg
· Hygiene Water = 2008 kg
· Laundry Water = 4562 kg
Water = Greatest single mass consumable (~7702 kg/person/year for a ‘high end’ system, which is only ~5.5 gal/day)

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#1 2007-01-13 21:29:56

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#2 2007-01-13 21:35:16

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#3 2007-01-14 22:44:14

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#4 2007-01-15 05:01:27

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#5 2007-01-15 07:18:21

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#6 2007-01-15 08:13:33

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#7 2007-01-23 09:38:43

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#8 2007-02-22 06:36:56

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#9 2007-03-28 06:13:00

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

#10 2007-07-12 07:44:10

Re: unmanned orion block use for cargo to Mars

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