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Hi all,
I was reading in Scientific American a few months ago about a theory on the biggest extinction event in the pre-history (and history) of Earth. The extinction event at the end of the Permian killed off 95% of aquatic species and 90% of land species.
It is strange because it did not happen suddenly (like an asteroid impact) but occurred in spurts for over a million years.
The story behind this hypotheses goes like this.
1) Continental drift caused warm seas in the equatorial areas.
2) The 'Siberian Traps' erupted (a vast area of basalt lava flows). This pumped huge amounts of carbon dioxide into the Earth's atmosphere.
3) Global warming increased the planet's temperature.
4) Warm water absorbs less oxygen.
5) Larger areas of the ocean floor became oxygen depleted. Anorexic bacteria (using sulfur as an oxidant) produce hydrogen sulfide gas.
6) This is extremely poisonous to aquatic animals and plankton. Most die.
7) The gas erupts into the atmosphere. This gas is poisonous to plants and animals which die.
8) This gas attacks the ozone layer which causes further destruction in areas far from the gas eruptions.
9) Purple algae (which are based on a hydrogen sulfide ecology and use sunlight directly for photosynthesis) appear in shallow waters replacing regular plankton. They add even more H2S and make the problem worse.
The Permian extinction is the biggest extinction even in the Earth's history but people think that a couple of the smaller events also were caused by hydrogen sulfide eruptions.
The direct evidence supporting this theory is:
1) These events already occur in the dead sea and off the coast of Namibia. We know this ecology is there and active in oxygen depleted waters. During these eruptions, lobsters flee the ocean to bake on the sand to avoid the H2S gas dissolved in the water.
2) The Permian extinction occurred during the highest levels of CO2 that we have discovered.
3) High sulfur content in marine rocks laid down then is hard otherwise to explain.
4) Rocks containing large amounts of Purple Algae are hard to explain as they can only live in low oxygen, shallow waters. They use a form of photosynthesis to produce H2S.
Indirect evidence is the lack of other explanations that resolve all these threads of data. (Indirect evidence is far weaker than direct.) In particular most explanations as to the Permian extinction have a hard time explaining why more marine species die (they usually are harder to kill than land species.)
So the point of this thread is to make a place for posts on severe possible consequences of human changes to Earth's climate (by warming it) & in particular hydrogen sulfide ecologies. Large scale flooding from the break up of the Greenland ice sheet (or less likely) the Antarctic ice sheet, I am defining as not a severe problem.
This is not an immediate problem, I should say. At current rates of increase we would have to wait until 2200 AD before we reach the Carbon Dioxide levels of some of the smaller extinction thought to be caused by Sulfur Dioxide ecologies.
I encourage people to read the original articles. Posts with references are much appreciated.
EDIT: I found the issue of Scientific American: It is the October 2006 issue. The article is called: "Global Warming & Mass Extinctions".
EDIT: Recent research (2008) suggests that the ozone layer would not be as badly damaged by methane and H2S eruptions as thought in this article.
Warm regards, Rick.
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The Liberals say we have only 10 years to deal with the problem, that means we can't channel our efforts into developing Fusion power to combat the Greenhouse Effect. The liberals would like us to make immediate sacrifices and reduce our standard of living now, I say, no! I think coal has tremendous potential to replace oil, it emits more CO2 however, but it can replace oil. My immediate concern is buying oil from terrorist sponsors or providing them an oil market from which they can readily raise money for their terrorist operations. My immediate concern is to find something my car can run on that provides no revenue for Middle-Eastern countries. The US has the largest reserve of coal in the World, so naturally I'd look to that source, people concerned with the Greenhouse effect would say no and that I should ride around in crappy little put put cars that can barely make it up the hill, so I can get excellent gas milage from petroleum derived fuel, or they say I should walk, or take a bicycle or rely on mass transit and live in a densely packed city. Well I'd rather live the way I live now, in a country with open spaces. I'd rather solve the problem without altering my style of living or reducing my standard of living. We have some time with the global warming problem. If we rush to solve it in ten years, we may make some rash decisions with some negative economic consequences. If we could instead work on Fusion for 50 years and solve the problem that way, there would be less economic consequences and sacrifices to make. I don't like the new ecological "Prophets of Doom". Usually the rule for climate change is gradualism, not catastrophism, so crash programs and belt-tightening are neigther needed or wanted.
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Hi all,
The above post is off topic so I have created a new thread called "Is Global Warming Real" to discuss this.
Warm regards, Rick
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I was reading a while ago that tiny, trace amounts of H2S (80 ppm) in the atmosphere would bring on a hibernation like state in animals. It was suggested that using this people could 'sleep' for several days or a few weeks, wake up and exercise, then hibernate again. This would significantly reduce the life support costs for long space trips and make it cheaper to ship large numbers of people to Mars and back.
It just occurred to me that this might be a evolutionary response to massive eruptions of H2S. Consider, some animal living far outside the normal area where H2S is generated. A strong wind from an odd direction starts blowing this lethal gas towards them. Those that fell down at the first whiff and basically stopped breathing until the wind changed and clear air came back would survive better than those that didn't.
This would suggest that H2S was around in quantity for millions of years (long enough that evolution would adapt species' biochemistry for it) and that this effect might be widespread across many animal species. If true, it could mean it is more likely to work on humans.
See: H2S Wiki article including discussion on hibernation
Warm regards, Rick.
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It was in a NewScientist article on hibernation. It's one of those things you don't need a university to test; just a plastic cage/aquarium, cash to buy a mouse, and some Hydrogen Sulphide. I want to try it out, then if I deem it safe enough, trial it on myself in smaller concentrations.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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I was reading a while ago that tiny, trace amounts of H2S (80 ppm) in the atmosphere would bring on a hibernation like state in animals. It was suggested that using this people could 'sleep' for several days or a few weeks, wake up and exercise, then hibernate again. This would significantly reduce the life support costs for long space trips and make it cheaper to ship large numbers of people to Mars and back.
It just occurred to me that this might be a evolutionary response to massive eruptions of H2S. Consider, some animal living far outside the normal area where H2S is generated. A strong wind from an odd direction starts blowing this lethal gas towards them. Those that fell down at the first whiff and basically stopped breathing until the wind changed and clear air came back would survive better than those that didn't.
This would suggest that H2S was around in quantity for millions of years (long enough that evolution would adapt species' biochemistry for it) and that this effect might be widespread across many animal species. If true, it could mean it is more likely to work on humans.
See: H2S Wiki article including discussion on hibernation
Warm regards, Rick.
Any volunteers to breath the "fart gas" to go into hybernation?
Not me!
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I volunteer!
Use what is abundant and build to last
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The end Permian extinction had very few large animal survivors, so perhaps it did select for some kind of protective H2S response.
There was a Japanese man who apparently lay in "suspended animation" on a hillside for 23 days, plus numerous other cases of people living in some kind of torpor awaiting rescue.
Not sure I'd want to experiment on myself with H2S without trying it out on some other mammals than mice. The little buggers can survive carbon monoxide levels that'd knock us dead.
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Doctoral student Catherine Powers at the University of Southern California has found evidence that the Permian extinction started in the deep oceans, spread to shallow waters and then onto the land.
This conclusion was gained from studying bryozoans, (a family of marine invertebrates). The species of bryozoans adapted for deep water started to decline 270 million years before the end of the Permian. However, 10 million years before the end, there was a sharp increases in deep water extinctions followed by shallow water extinctions. Shoreline species were affected last.
This pattern is the opposite of the types of deaths found in impact extinctions. In those, the land species are hardest hit with marine species having a much larger chance of surviving.
She says, "There are very few people that hang on to the idea that it [the Permian Extinction Event] was a meteorite impact."
A similar pattern of extinctions happened 200 million years ago, ending the Triassic era.
The full article can be found in the November, 2007 issue of the journal Geology.
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Dr. Lee R. Kump, professor of geosciences told the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America:
"However, we find mass extinction on land to be an unlikely consequence of carbon dioxide levels of only seven times the preindustrial level. Plants, in general, love carbon dioxide, so it is difficult to think of carbon dioxide as a good kill mechanism [for plants].
On the other hand, hydrogen sulfide gas, produced in the oceans through sulfate decomposition by sulfur bacteria, can easily kill both terrestrial and oceanic plants and animals."
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I (Rick) have been trying to get the CO2 level at the end of the Permian and Kamp's report is the first mention I've found. However, I don't think that it is fair to say that if we reach 7 times pre-industrial CO2 levels we will automatically get a Permian style extinction event. The Siberian Traps kept this CO2 level high for a long time, the Permian had wide shallow seas on the equator. Both of these are dangers that we do not face today.
However, China is doubling its use of fossil fuels every 5 years. India is doubling them every 6 years. And several other 3rd world nations are growing their economies quickly. The USA and other western countries are still increasing the rate that we burn ground carbon.
At a lecture at the University of Washington, which I attended, Robert Zubrin said that projections indicated that the world would be burning fossil fuels at 8 times the rate that we are now, by the year 2050. (This assumes that we don't go to nuclear power.)
Fusion power is on the ragged edge of success and funding for it has been cut world wide to almost nothing. I suggest that we SUPPORT FUSION!!!
EDIT: I came across this. Same old, same old but talks about the Medical community using H2S for treating severe wounds.
Peter Ward - Wired interview.
also...
Zombie Mouse Master Extends Lifespans.
Warm regards, Rick.
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