Pathways to Enlightened Colonization - How not to be a space imperialist

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 17:47:03

Pathways to eco-friendly, socially-responsible Martian colonization!

Three pathways exist that might avoid the worst-case scenario that Ho talks about (and perhaps bring about the semi-utopian Martian colonization that he talks about):

1) Do what I have been advocating all along and don't go (the 'Marshall Plan')

2) Resort to trying to convince everybody that colonialist imperialism (of a capitalist bent) has always produced only good results thru-out both history, and now the future, despite all the evidence to the contrary (the 'Zubrin Plan for Martian Devastation').

3) Campaign for eco-friendly, socially-responsible Martian colonization that avoids the pitfalls of 1 and 2 above, by:

-implementing a Mars conservation programme (the Save One-Fourth of Mars for the Martians campaign, for eg)

-renouncing private property, militarism and nuclear power use on Mars.

-incorperate the desires of all the world's people when drawing up colonization plans (which is only just, since Mars is a under common ownership of the whole world according to the Outer Space Treaty).

-campaign for your respective governments to sign the 1979 UN Moon Treaty (which will go along way towards the elimination of land-grabbing and resource appropriation on Mars).

-campaign for the equitable distribution of Mars resources (this is part of the already accepted Outer Space treaty)

-do not colonise Mars until the danger to any of its lifeforms has been proved (to the majority of the earth's people) to not exist.

If Mars Society members are looking for an eco-friendly, socially-caring Mars, then perhaps this should be the Mars Society Plan!

Auqakah · 2002-12-26 13:33:44

Shockingly, I agree with all these points except 1), and 2) - and naturally the whole 'how not to be a space imperialist' nonsense. The USA is imperialistic enough, without people having to worry about 'space imperialists', as well. (NOTE: I'm semi-kidding, here. Sorry for any offense caused, but, well, honesty is my policy.). Although, 2) somewhat confused me, since it didn't make a whole lot of sense. But still. Gasp.

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*sits rigidly still in shock*

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soph · 2002-12-26 21:25:06

er, throw out everything. except, that we should use resources wisely. socialism ends up hurting people more in the end than capitalism, imho. yes, its important to conserve resources, but not to look at them, and say, "OOOOh thats nice, lets leave it."

the space treaties we have now suck. they should be trashed. private property is important, but information should be public and uncopyrighted.

Cobra Commander · 2002-12-27 17:14:14

The term "space imperialist" is growing on me. For all the problems of the old colonial model, it had the one unquestionable virtue of having worked. To hell with scrapping the treaties, America can continue its historical pattern of simply ignoring them.
On to Mars!

(A certain degree of sarcasm is intended.)

Auqakah · 2002-12-27 17:57:59

socialism ends up hurting people more in the end than capitalism, imho.

What? Since when? Capitalism is starving millions worldwide. Socialism is not.

soph · 2002-12-27 18:04:42

er, where? where the system is abused by a corrupt government?

and where is socialism used, besides that little island of Cuba? socialism didnt work. germany was socialist, and there was a hell of a lot of starving there. Same for the soviet union. so what is the benefit of socialism?

socialism has a place in certain applications (i.e. healthcare), but as an economic system, it sucks.

Auqakah · 2002-12-27 18:32:12

Thats probably due to the fact that socialism isn't exactly an economic system. And any unplanned economic system doesn't work properly. The world markets are proof of that.

And where exactly does capitalism work? Nowhere.

Socialism is widespread, anyway. Europe is socialist (in name, if not in nature).

Communism, after all, is not the only form of socialism. And communism didn't work because the rest of the world was capitalist; not entirely because of corruption.

And any capitalist state is going to be more corrupt than any socialist state, too - just take the US.

Cobra Commander · 2002-12-27 18:37:35

And any capitalist state is going to be more corrupt than any socialist state, too - just take the US.

Let's see, under capitalism there are numerous private companies competing for the privelege of screwing me over.

Under socialism, the government dictates who can screw me over, when, and under what circumstances.

Looks like I get screwed either way, but at least with capitalism I have some choice. As there is always one option less "corrupt" than the others, I'll take capitalism any day.

soph · 2002-12-27 18:37:37

just take the US. obviously capitalism works here. the highest GDP, GNP, and the greatest world power status dont really lie.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-28 01:16:39

Cobra, and yet, you neglect to mention the power of a monopoly within capitalism... I would argue that monopolies are much more corrupt (especially if unaccountable) than any socialist-esque, democratic, society.

I, of course, will continue to contend that once we have some space infrastructure, we won't be having anything remotely resembling capitalism.

Cobra Commander · 2002-12-28 01:41:32

Cobra, and yet, you neglect to mention the power of a monopoly within capitalism... I would argue that monopolies are much more corrupt (especially if unaccountable) than any socialist-esque, democratic, society.

Monopolies are by no means a guaranteed outcome in a capitalist system. Socialism always results in the monopoly of the state. Capitalism and socialism are both fertile ground for corruption, but it's easier to get away with corruption under socialism. There's no competition and, in the case of monopolies, no recourse.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-28 06:04:20

::shrug::

Sure, any system can be corrupt. And it would be hard for one to argue which one is ?more corrupt? than the other, because such arguments are about implementation, not inherent to the actual ?system.?

No competition in socalism is only true for natural resources (and then, there's nothing preventing you from building a business alongside things which are publicly shared! ). In any other case, competition is guarenteed, since monopolies can't form. But... since the very definition of socialism is a kind of regulation, and the most natural form of capitalism is laissez-faire (due to the fact that businesses really don't care for regulation since they can create market hegemonies and so on if they don't have it- thus increasing profit), I would argue the very opposite of what you said.

soph · 2002-12-28 07:43:28

a government in a capatilist system can bring the hammer down on monopolies or corrupt industries. look at microsoft. i think bill gates was just a genius businessman. others thought he was bad, so he was punished.

our government seems to have a cycle, more regulation, less, more, less, that continues depending on the situation.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-28 17:53:51

Yep, Bill Gates is and was a brilliant businessman. The first smart move he made was to create his own OS hegemony by requiring that hardware manufactures which used his OS only use his OS. The secret licensing required that any computer with Microsoft Windows on it could not have a second partition with another OS (this was actually what the whole MS vs. DOJ was about, but for some reason the laywers dumbed it down to be about browsers- most likely a deal was made). Now, really, there weren't many competitiors at the time, if anyone recalls; OS/2 being the only real one, but it still gives us insite. If you're going to sell something, make sure no one else can.

soph · 2002-12-28 21:51:24

now, you could always get a second hard drive, and pick which OS to boot. but people arent that smart.

Auqakah · 2003-01-04 16:36:43

just take the US. obviously capitalism works here. the highest GDP, GNP, and the greatest world power status dont really lie.

Yeah. Right. And people the world over trying to kill you. Great job.

Perhaps thats a little unfair, but I still find it strange that people can actually put real-world value on money. Its just not important.

Capitalism depends on a free market. And a free market just doesn't work. I would've thought that two thousand years of death, destruction, and poverty would have pretty much rammed that home by now. Yet it doesn't. Why? Greed. So, just be truthful. Capitalism works in a great many people's minds because they are greedy, and hope it will work for them. That doesn't mean it does though. It works for well under 10% of the worlds population; and so the other 90% can go to hell?

I say forget that worldview, and lets find another.

And I never said that I meant communism. Nor did I say I believe in full-on socialism. You assumed I did, because the capitalist ethos is so wide-spread that anything other than that is assumed to be incorrect - and full-on socialism is the best example of a failed attempt to move away from capitalism.

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-04 21:18:35

I say forget that worldview, and lets find another.

I am in complete agreement there. Let's just make sure the new one is based in reality as it is, not how we would like it to be.

That's not a jab at anyone, by the way, just a statement.

soph · 2003-01-04 21:41:21

capitalism doesnt work? yes, thats why people in america continue to receive higher wages while people in dictatorships continue to live in poverty.

greed? some might call that human nature. so a system that works with human nature, sounds pretty good to me.
it works well for 10% of the worlds population because thats the 10% that lives in a capitalist economy. look at ghana. within a few years of switching to a free market, the economy is prospering. i can think of a few other examples, but your post was kind of funny.

jealousy sparks desires to kill. i have no problem with the world being jealous of the US.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-05 06:42:46

Actually, the free market is brilliant. It's really evolution in action, and I much prefer it to a managed economy. The problems come about when monopolies exist in that market, and act as a cancer. Destroying new businesses, controlling prices, and even affecting politicians to pass certain laws.

What is capitalism without private slash corporate monopolies? Socialism.

Runnerbrax · 2003-08-08 08:52:44

Amen to private property and trashing our current space laws

Runnerbrax · 2003-08-08 08:57:09

i guess we agree on something now don't we josh ? haha this may sound stupid but Mouse(the dorky kid from the matrix said it best. "To deny our own impulses is to deny the one thing that makes us human." Human nature is an impulse and that is why capitalism is the most succesfull type of econmy out there, it is fuled by the need to be the next "Bill Gates".

Surferosad · 2003-09-01 09:37:13

just take the US. obviously capitalism works here. the highest GDP, GNP, and the greatest world power status dont really lie.

And 40% of the US belongs to the richest 1% of the population, there are over 2 million people in jail, most of them members of visible minorities, and about 40 to 50 million people are struggling to survive while, in the last twenty years, the people in between (the so called middle class) have seen their quality of life and their purchasing power decrease. Meanwhile, the richest 25% of the US became even richer... The US spends over 300 billion dollars in defence projects that don't do anything to make anyone feel any safer, while refusing to participate in any international initiative that may compromise its power but increase world security! The US may be the biggest economic and military power in the world right now, but this hasn't benefited most of it's population. To me, this means that capitalism, US style, isn't working.

Byron · 2003-09-01 11:14:08

just take the US. obviously capitalism works here. the highest GDP, GNP, and the greatest world power status dont really lie.
And 40% of the US belongs to the richest 1% of the population, there are over 2 million people in jail, most of them members of visible minorities, and about 40 to 50 million people are struggling to survive while, in the last twenty years, the people in between (the so called middle class) have seen their quality of life and their purchasing power decrease. Meanwhile, the richest 25% of the US became even richer... The US spends over 300 billion dollars in defence projects that don't do anything to make anyone feel any safer, while refusing to participate in any international initiative that may compromise its power but increase world security! The US may be the biggest economic and military power in the world right now, but this hasn't benefited most of it's population. To me, this means that capitalism, US style, isn't working.

I'm with you on this one....

You might be interested in checking out the links in my other posts in the -- What would YOU do as President -- thread.

B

Hazer · 2003-10-26 20:26:58

"That's probably due to the fact that socialism isn't exactly an economic system. And any unplanned economic system doesn't work properly. The world markets are proof of that."

A free market works. I define "Works" here as fufilling it's intended purpose. Whether the world markets work properly or not is entirely relative to who you are.
Let us not speak of socialist Mars versus capitalistic Mars. Rather, I ask you, should the future Mars have a predetermined (Command) Economy or an economy that results from the cumulative choices of every individual involved in the colonization of Mars?

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Re: Pathways to Enlightened Colonization - How not to be a space imperialist

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Re: Pathways to Enlightened Colonization - How not to be a space imperialist

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