"Star Wars" missile defense - practicle?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-20 10:33:18

Man Shaun, you make me sound like a supporter of Iraqi political structure! Only you could twist my position so well. I said, and I quote, ?[...] they voted in spite of us.? Not because they love Iraq, and the political system put forth there, but because they just don't like us, damnit! Saddam has no reason to go after people who didn't vote for him (most likely due to the fact that voting is anonymous), he only has a reason to go after major political dissentors. And I doubt very seriously there are many there since all would have been suppressed by now. So it's only logical to conclude that those who did vote against him, are fine. This isn't a stretch, though you may have a hard time grasping it.

The comment about Cuba was completely random, and probably doesn't even belong there, since Iraq doesn't resemble Cuba in any reasonable degree. You do have democracy in Cuba. So what if it's a single system, you still have it. Cuba is sanctioned to death, though. And it's overly militarised, and so on. There are a lot of problems there just like everywhere.

I like how you pretend that the US has been having ?free elections? for so long, yet, women and black people didn't vote until some fifty years ago. Yeah, right. That's a non-issue, though, it's just funny how you praise a system so much without quite thinking about it.

And you are silly if you think we're criticizing western democracy. I love how these issues are turned into black and white deals. I complain about military pork, basically (but it goes further than that, obviously), and you make it seem like I'm complaining about western democracy! I think we have a fine system going here, but like every system, it could do with some tweaking. The US military needs to be seriously tweaked. Anyone who doesn't realize this, is in serious denial.

Since you like making lists of horrible dictators, shall I make a ?heavy irony? list about the dictators we're friendly with? I don't think you'd like that (mainly due to the fact that they actually include some of the people in your distorted list of ?liberal? dictators! )

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-20 10:34:17

Bump (message lost).

AltToWar · 2002-12-20 11:05:15

The point is...

When making rational decisions about what is the correct next move for our countries, we need to remove moral platitudes from the issue. America is not right in what it does, simply because it is America that does it.

America was based on the notion that it the duty of the people to watch and mistrust athority. Our government is based on the notion that power is corruting. We have a complex system of checks and balances put in place designed to prevent the powerful from oppressing the weak.

We cannot excuse our leaders from resposability. They make decisions and it's the American people that live with the consequences.

If we just shut our mouths and accept what we have then I will guarantee you, Shawn, that what freedom we do have will slowly erode.

Phobos · 2002-12-20 23:33:16

I was thoroughly exposed to every evil act ever committed by the USA while in college and it's not so much the fact that people bring up such information but rather that it seems some people want to use this info as propaganda to help their aims of overthrowing the system and completely revising it's governmental and political structure. I had some professors who were keen to bring up the things that Josh often does but in a manner that was decidedly anti-American. The info was presented in such a way that it often made all other countries look as innocent as a newborn while all problems of significance are the direct consequence of evil American intentions. Perhaps this is why I start getting paranoid everytime people start bringing up these types of issues. I agree that such info should be brought out into the open but I'm suspicious when its used as propaganda to fuel anti-American hatred. I'm not necessarily saying Josh and Alttowar is using it in that way but I just wanted to point out, which Shaun did a lot better, that the USA is certainly not the only country out there that has engaged in devious and destructive behaviour.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-12-22 20:12:46

Phobos, I appreciate your kind comments.

I'm fully aware, despite Josh's rather disingenuous insinuations otherwise, that Stalin, Hitler and Mao weren't socialists. Not in any real sense. But in name, they were.
Mao presided over the ostensibly socialist People's Republic of China, Stalin over the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and Hitler over National Socialist Germany. Cuba, too, is a socialist state and even Josh admits that, while nominally a democracy, its elections are meaningless because it's a "single system".
Isn't it interesting how often the great revolution of the proletariat against oppression of one sort, almost inevitably results in more oppression of a different sort?

No. The point of my post, which I'm inclined to think has been misinterpreted for purposes of convenience alone, was to bring some semblance of balance into the argument. That was obvious to Phobos, but not to our socialist friends, who are not really socialists, but who just happen to sound like all the left-wing anti-American choruses you hear day-in-day-out in the media. A curious though apparently unintentional resemblance, according to Josh!

All I'm trying to point out is that all the world is a dirty place. AltToWar and Phobos have very high moral standards and are outraged at the political machinations of their own country. I do not condemn them for such sentiments - in fact I've said I encourage them to criticise, but again this has been conveniently overlooked. Why is so much of what I'm actually saying being overlooked? Because I'm not making the right noises - I'm not chanting the mantra, I'm not part of the chorus!

Our not-really-socialist-but happen-to-sound-left-wing friends here (and I do mean friends, because underneath all the rhetoric our ultimate aims are not dissimilar) can list America's transgressions like a mullah quoting from the Koran. But even if all the sins were genuine and totally unmitigated, such a list is still misleading because it lacks balance.
May we also have the benefit of a similarly detailed list of the transgressions of Iraq, Iran, Russia, China, etc.?
If you are genuinely concerned about morality in politics, might we please learn of your anguish at the treatment of populations in different countries all over the world?
Josh laments my ignorance of U.S. foreign policy. I confess his knowledge in this area must certainly exceed my own, not least of all because he lives there. But may we ask him to air his knowledge of atrocities committed in recent times by other countries, so that we can compare the details and see for ourselves just how evil America really is?
Or is it no fun to acknowledge the relatively uninteresting fact that man's inhumanity to man is commonplace and not the sole prerogative of the U.S.A.?!

Step back from the pack of dogs all around you, barking and baying at America's heels. Wake up to the manipulation of your mind by the insidious 'political correctness' virus which is distorting science as well as politics today.
Question everything, even the 'liberalism' which purports to be the answer to everything. There simply is no answer to everything, any more than there's a "Great Satan".

All I want is a little balance!
???

AltToWar · 2002-12-22 23:51:18

The world is a bad place filled with bad people.

Power corrupts.

All the more reson to be weary of your government. To keep it under scrutiny.

America is a democracy(sort of).

America was an experiment. The experiment allowed, as much as those who created knew how, for it's people to be the ultimate check and balance on it's own government.

If our govenment does something naughty, shame on the government. If we as people don't prevent our government from doing the same thing in the future, shame on the people.

The excuse that "Every other dictator did naughty things, so why can't we" is weak and morally bankrupt.

Yes, America has accomplished many great things. America in that past has proven that it can be a world leader in progess and hope.

If we want to contine to be the leader of the free world, we cannot just rest on our past accomplishments. If we do, our days as a world leader is numbered.

We must continue to make the hard changes that will be required for a peaceful world future.

Unfortunately it seems America is embracing ideologies that most of the progressives of the world have thought to be relics of western civilizations past.

While the Europe is moving away from nationalism, america is deeply reinvesting itself in nationalism. Europe continues to sacrifice some of it's nations own best interests in exchange for a collective best interest. America takes an america first approach.

While most of the world has come together to approach the issue of a global environmental disaster, america has rejected the issue. The world has decided to go on without us. Forgive me if my numbers are off, but somthing like 70 countires have signed the Kyoto agreement.

While the world seeks to create an international forum for justice, america refused to allow such a thing to be created unless it's citizens are totally immue to such a court. The world once again left us behind and will continue on it's own.

While the rest of the world seeks global cooperation in dealing with tyrants, america brings unilateralism back to the world. The world pleads for america to reconsider. Only reluctantly (thank god for Colin Powell) america agrees, if only in gesture.

In a world that has condemned preemtive war since WWII, the US is now bringing this nightmare from the past back to the world. It won't take but a few days of reading foreign press to realize the damage just rhetoric on this policy has done.

The america I believe in should be at the front of these movements. The america I believe in should be leading the way towards a peaceful, economicly stable, socially diverse world. We have such a potential to lead the world to it's next era.

Unfortunately I believe that the age of Superpowers is a thing of the past. We continue to fight a Cold War, only without an enemy. We need to redefine our goals and try to forsee the next step the world is about to take into the future.

I think america is proving itself to be a relic from the past.

The world moves quickly these days, and America has aged. We have the baggage of corruption and political engines that are difficult to unseat. We are looking at the world through the eyes of 1950. We are losing opportunities to lead the world in the direction the world wants and needs to go. We are fighting to hold on to a past.

But america has a system in place that allows the people to change these problems.

Change is not going to happen unless we open our eyes.

The era of Superpowers is coming to a close, just as the age of Colonial Empires ended before it. We can demand for change and lead the world, or we can make excuses for our complacity.

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:24:29

Phobos, I appreciate your kind comments.
I'm fully aware, despite Josh's rather disingenuous insinuations otherwise, that Stalin, Hitler and Mao weren't socialists. Not in any real sense. But in name, they were.
Mao presided over the ostensibly socialist People's Republic of China, Stalin over the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and Hitler over National Socialist Germany. Cuba, too, is a socialist state and even Josh admits that, while nominally a democracy, its elections are meaningless because it's a "single system".
Isn't it interesting how often the great revolution of the proletariat against oppression of one sort, almost inevitably results in more oppression of a different sort?
No. The point of my post, which I'm inclined to think has been misinterpreted for purposes of convenience alone, was to bring some semblance of balance into the argument. That was obvious to Phobos, but not to our socialist friends, who are not really socialists, but who just happen to sound like all the left-wing anti-American choruses you hear day-in-day-out in the media. A curious though apparently unintentional resemblance, according to Josh!
All I'm trying to point out is that all the world is a dirty place. AltToWar and Phobos have very high moral standards and are outraged at the political machinations of their own country. I do not condemn them for such sentiments - in fact I've said I encourage them to criticise, but again this has been conveniently overlooked. Why is so much of what I'm actually saying being overlooked? Because I'm not making the right noises - I'm not chanting the mantra, I'm not part of chorus!
Our not-really-socialist-but happen-to-sound-left-wing friends here (and I do mean friends, because underneath all the rhetoric our ultimate aims are not dissimilar) can list America's transgressions like a mullah quoting from the Koran. But even if all the sins were genuine and totally unmitigated, such a list is still misleading because it lacks balance.
May we also have the benefit of a similarly detailed list of the transgressions of Iraq, Iran, Russia, China, etc.?
If you are genuinely concerned about morality in politics, might we please learn of your anguish at the treatment of populations in different countries all over the world?
Josh laments my ignorance of U.S. foreign policy. I confess his knowledge in this area must certainly exceed my own, not least of all because he lives there. But may we ask him to air his knowledge of atrocities committed in recent times by other countries, so that we can compare the details and see for ourselves just how evil America really is?
Or is it no fun to acknowledge the relatively uninteresting fact that man's inhumanity to man is commonplace and not the sole prerogative of the U.S.A.?!
Step back from the pack of dogs all around you, barking and baying at America's heels. Wake up to the manipulation of your mind by the insidious 'political correctness' virus which is distorting science as well as politics today.
Question everything, even the 'liberalism' which purports to be the answer to everything. There simply is no answer to everything, any more than there's a "Great Satan".
All I want is a little balance!
???

Josh, I realize the rest of the world does horrible things.

I am an American, though. As an American I have some resposability for the actions of my government, as our leaders are elected. My vote influences how america works.

I attach more weight to my governments acctions, and look more gravely on my nations offences because I have a digree of responsability for them.

While I am often saddened by the atrocities of other nations, I know that enlightenment cannot be bomed into people. You cannot force people into freedom. They must seek it on their own terms in their own way.

While I agree that there are times when America must interfere with human atrocities across the world, I am weary that our interferance will have a much more ill effect than good.

I know that there is a need for times when America should step up and help other nations, but I also know that our media is willing to bend to some who wish to influence it. I am weary of our intentions because in retrospect, the reasons we have engaged in some humanitarian missions in the past have come to light as not being as altruistic as the people in the age had believed them to be. Our government (and many of the relics digged up for our current administration) has a history for lieing to its people. Some of our current appointed cabinet members have been convicted of such things in american courts.

We both know the worlds a dirt place. In the case of america, I have some resposability for the mess. That is why I take such a harsh tone for our misdeeds.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-23 00:55:12

Some points. Shaun, you said that Cuba's elections are meaningless because it's a single system. Well, I don't see anywhere in the definition of democracy that ?all systems are allowed.? A capitalist can't be elected in Cuba, the same way a staunch segregtionists can't be elected in the US. It's really that simple (I know it's easier to understand these things if I make the issues black and white like I just did, but I can explain Cuba's political structure in depth, if you'd like).

I just wonder how in the hell criticizing US militarism slash pork got into a discussion about how evil other world countries. If I were to, as Shaun wishes, ?air my knowledge of atrocities committed in recent times by other countries,? I think we would be surprised to find that the US was connected to a majority of them. Of course, this would then lead to more accusations about me being anti-American, and so on, so I don't quite see the freaking point...

...the real point is that the US is the most powerful state in the world, and it does what it wants, and that it ought to acknowledge that being the way it is isn't going to create friends (something people in this thread seem to not realize). Do I really care as much as you guys profess? Not really. I live by the Silver Rule, after all!

But Shaun does bring up one good point, revolutions can lead to regimes which arguably oppress as much as the original regime, if not more. The key point Orwell tried to make in his book Animal Farm (a highly misrepresented book in conservative circles, and a highly misunderstood book in liberal circles). Totalitarianism is wrong. Period.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-12-23 19:34:59

Hi AltToWar!
Although your last post was addressed to Josh, it looks to me as though it answers some of the points I raised in my last offering.
I believe there is merit in much of what you say and, as I intimated, I think there's probably less distance between us than there appears.
My idealism is heavily tempered by a rather jaundiced view of 'human nature' (Stand back and get ready for Josh to tear his hair out and explain in an exasperated fashion that there's no such thing as human nature! ... I happen to disagree.)
I may not know much, but I've learned that in this world, if nearly everybody is shouting the same things and running in the same direction, there's usually something wrong with their thinking! I'm very suspicious of the group mentality - it almost invariably leads to trouble. So my advice, for what it's worth, is to question even more thoroughly what everyone seems to think is right and needs no further analysis. This applies not just to demonisation of the U.S. by the 'pack' but to things like the global warming question as well.
You present interesting notions about the demise of empires and superpowers. I'm less convinced than you are that they're things of the past. I think it comes back to the 'human nature' concept again. Once there was a 'war-to-end-all-wars' ... but nothing changed. I fear it's simply arrogance to assume we've evolved into better creatures than we were and, frankly, I don't believe we have. I hope I'm wrong.

Thanks Josh for taking the trouble to fish out at least one point we could agree on!

I take that as a sign of our continued friendship despite our superficial differences.

I've said all I want to say about this topic now and I'll leave you in peace to debate the issues further. Thank you for your responses to my posts - I've enjoyed reading them.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-24 01:23:14

I don't think his last post was in regard to me... he seemd to be replying to your ?all the world is a dirty place? argument. Much like your mention of Phobos was probably in regard to me...

...ahh well, it makes me feel special.

Don't worry, I'm not going to start a human nature argument again. I'm fairly sure I said I wasn't going to say anything about human nature after that one blow up I had with A.J.

I just hope that deep down you can agree that the messes around the world are due to decisions a few people at the top make, and not the whole of society. When an electric company pollutes a river with sulpher, you can't logically blame everyone who uses electricity! You blame the guy in charge of getting rid of pollutants, and his boss who tells him what to do with it. I think this can easily be extended to the rest of the world; and I think that we can see that the leaders are the true culprits. Does this necessarily mean that this is what human nature is? No, I don't think so. Maybe the nature of human leaders, perhaps. Power corrupts, after all.

I like the Silver Rule. The Silver Rule is simple. ?Don't do unto others which you would not have done unto you.? An interesting variation is ?Don't do unto your inferiors what you would not have your superiors do unto you?- which creates a moral delimma; and indeed, asks a question about what you think of other human beings. If you think certain humans are inferior, you would obviously not feel any obligation to leave them alone, and you would be completely oblivious to their suffering. Kind of how we can kill lower animals for food, and not give a crap for their suffering. The only difference, is that there is scientific evidence to suggest that interspecifically, there are varying degrees of inferiority and superiority. Whereas intraspecifically, this is not the case.

AltToWar · 2002-12-24 02:25:07

Hi AltToWar!
Although your last post was addressed to Josh, it looks to me as though it answers some of the points I raised in my last offering.
I believe there is merit in much of what you say and, as I intimated, I think there's probably less distance between us than there appears.
My idealism is heavily tempered by a rather jaundiced view of 'human nature' (Stand back and get ready for Josh to tear his hair out and explain in an exasperated fashion that there's no such thing as human nature! ... I happen to disagree.)
I may not know much, but I've learned that in this world, if nearly everybody is shouting the same things and running in the same direction, there's usually something wrong with their thinking! I'm very suspicious of the group mentality - it almost invariably leads to trouble. So my advice, for what it's worth, is to question even more thoroughly what everyone seems to think is right and needs no further analysis. This applies not just to demonisation of the U.S. by the 'pack' but to things like the global warming question as well.
You present interesting notions about the demise of empires and superpowers. I'm less convinced than you are that they're things of the past. I think it comes back to the 'human nature' concept again. Once there was a 'war-to-end-all-wars' ... but nothing changed. I fear it's simply arrogance to assume we've evolved into better creatures than we were and, frankly, I don't believe we have. I hope I'm wrong.
Thanks Josh for taking the trouble to fish out at least one point we could agree on!

I take that as a sign of our continued friendship despite our superficial differences.

I've said all I want to say about this topic now and I'll leave you in peace to debate the issues further. Thank you for your responses to my posts - I've enjoyed reading them.

Shawn,

If you spent a few weeks in America, you will realize that the points I am expressing here are totally vacant in America mass media.

There is no dissent. What little dissent there is is dressed down as Unpatriotic and given with a high bias for the current administration.

Perhaps your perception that my arguments are the majority of opinion in america because the internet is the only recourse for discussion on topics of mistrust of the current administration. Perhaops it is because you are exposed to more foreign press than most are.

But let me assure you, there is no public debate on the war in Iraq in america. The media has decided that the curerent president is in the right, and fears being labeled "unpatriotic" in a time of war.

Most of the points I have expressed aere not echoed in the mass media in america. It's a truely freightening thing.

soph · 2002-12-24 07:30:41

change wont happen until people in our congress and senate care more about accomplishing something, and less about being reelected.

our system needs someone who really cares about this country, and not about their public image.

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