The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

SpaceNut · 2006-11-29 18:39:45

What should the US do with its manned Lunar space program base once we start going, in hopefully 2018 or before.

Well this article contains what has been thought of by the Astrophysics enabled by return to the moon workshop that is on going.. which cIclops has made a mention or two in other location.

Wish list for Moon-based astronomers revealed

The meeting, at the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) in Baltimore, Maryland, US, also saw the unveiling of nine key objectives for astronomy on the Moon.

cIclops · 2006-11-30 03:08:20

What should the US do with its manned Lunar space program base once we start going, in hopefully 2018 or before.

The main purpose of the Outpost is to prepare for missions to Mars. Calling it an Outpost is deliberate, it shouldn't be a full scale base initially - that would be too expensive and not required. Eventually once the technology is mature and certainly when commercial services are operational (2030?) a permanent base will probably be constructed. Scott base at the South pole wasn't begun until 1956 almost 50 years after the first person, Amundsen got there in 1911. Even today only about 50 people are there during the winter. Compared with the Moon that base is just around the corner, has a mild climate and is cheap to visit. Small groups of tourists do visit but only stay for a few hours.

So preparation for Mars missions and lunar science will be the primary purpose. That workshop you quote has a few extra ideas: more laser ranging for physics and farside radio astronomy, but that's about it.

Grypd · 2006-11-30 06:26:50

What should the US do with its manned Lunar space program base once we start going, in hopefully 2018 or before

There is a lot more to do with the Moon than just use it as an upgraded Hubble. We will learn a lot about our sciences on the Moon from material sciences to the geological origin of the Earth.

The main purpose of the Outpost is to prepare for missions to Mars. Calling it an Outpost is deliberate, it shouldn't be a full scale base initially - that would be too expensive and not required

Though there is much that can be learned from basing on the Moon for a future Mars mission I wonder if it really comes down to confidence. With a Moon base we have the ability to get back to Earth if something goes wrong in a matter of days and so when nothing does go wrong it increases the pressure to go for Mars.

And of course if we can utilise the materials of the Moon then we gain a major advantage in our ability to function in space.

SpaceNut · 2006-11-30 09:13:07

What should the US do with its manned Lunar space program base once we start going, in hopefully 2018 or before.
The main purpose of the Outpost is to prepare for missions to Mars. Calling it an Outpost is deliberate, it shouldn't be a full scale base initially - that would be too expensive and not required. So preparation for Mars missions and lunar science will be the primary purpose.

But what can we practiced in a vacuum that relates to a poisonous atmosphere, creation of insitu rocket fuels and so much more? The again what do the nine objectives for astrophysics have to do with creation of an outpost? Why not have some for geologists, botonists, and the list of all specialties come up with there own lists as well of projects to do while astronauts are on its surface?
I agree Grypd that there is a lot more to do with the Moon than just science research into geological orign and a few pet projects of construction as in a more advanced Hubble...

Edit:
"If all the LSAM is to be is a temporary Sortie, then this is flags and foot prints all over again of which the stay is just busy work while they are there..."

This statement needed changing of outpost to sortie, after finding the next link.

Here is the Living on the Moon press kit page.

The Lunar Outpost missions will establish the capability to conduct routine human long duration missions of 42-98 days.

cIclops · 2006-11-30 14:52:24

There is a lot more to do with the Moon than just use it as an upgraded Hubble. We will learn a lot about our sciences on the Moon from material sciences to the geological origin of the Earth.

The upgraded Hubble will be the JWST. The moon is not a good place for optical or IR astronomy, it's dusty, its temperature changes a lot, it has gravity and rotates. Probably all new telescopes will be constructed in free space.

Though there is much that can be learned from basing on the Moon for a future Mars mission I wonder if it really comes down to confidence. With a Moon base we have the ability to get back to Earth if something goes wrong in a matter of days and so when nothing does go wrong it increases the pressure to go for Mars.

Yes that's a big advantage of a lunar Outpost, it's a big step closer to Mars yet not too far from safety. Life support, radiation shielding, ISRU and crew psychology can all be tested in an environoment much more similar to Mars than ISS or Earth.

dicktice · 2006-11-30 18:56:58

Yes ... yes ... and then what did cIclops have to say? say?

SpaceNut · 2006-11-30 21:45:48

Here is a twist to going...

Minister in Moon talks with Nasa

Britain could become involved in Nasa plans to send astronauts back to the Moon by 2020, science minister Malcolm Wicks has said.
He met Nasa chief Dr Michael Griffin at the Cabinet War Rooms to discuss the plans for future Moon landings.

SpaceNut · 2006-12-01 08:05:53

Now do not let this title fool you..
Russia Will Develop Space Elevators

Actually this line got my attention...

Nikolai Sevastyanov, president of the Energia Rocket and Space Corporation, said Russia will build the first permanent lunar base in 2015.

Then the size of the rockets that they are proposing.

Chemical-propellant launch vehicles with hydrogen-oxygen engines will not prove effective in this case. For instance, the Proton rocket, with a 650-metric-ton lift-off weight, orbits 22-metric-ton spacecraft and can also launch 6.5-metric-ton interplanetary probes (that is 1% of the lift-off weight).
Preliminary estimates show that a Martian mission would involve a 600-metric-ton spacecraft, which cannot lift off from the Earth. Consequently, its components must be assembled in outer space. But it would take 100 Proton rockets with a total lift-off weight of 65,000 metric tons to orbit all spacecraft elements.

But what about there version of the shuttle..

Nor can Russia's heavier Angara space system provide the solution.
As for the unique Soviet-made super heavy Energia launch vehicle, the last word in rocket technology, it can orbit 105-metric-ton payloads, or 4.3% of its lift-off weight. Energia rockets with a total lift-off weight of 50,000 metric tons would therefore be needed to launch all elements of the Martian spacecraft.

So if the opening lines are indeed true then what will they be using to get to the moon?

If they do indeed built something that looks like they could get them there first then there is a new horse race shaping up to get to the moon again. This time with a lot more participents for the many nations possesing rockets this time...

Grypd · 2006-12-01 09:02:01

There is a lot more to do with the Moon than just use it as an upgraded Hubble. We will learn a lot about our sciences on the Moon from material sciences to the geological origin of the Earth.
The upgraded Hubble will be the JWST. The moon is not a good place for optical or IR astronomy, it's dusty, its temperature changes a lot, it has gravity and rotates. Probably all new telescopes will be constructed in free space.

Actually the Moon is the defacto perfect place for radio telescopes, the blocking of the Earths signals. The Moon may be dusty and has tempature swings but this is only on the surface place anything about 1 metre under the regolith and the tempature remains almost a constant -20 centigrade. Another point to the Moon being used as a place for telescopes is it is stable and also almost in constant vacuum.

This stableness is why the Moon will be the place for all the best telescopes. Using the law of Interferometry where a telescope at the lunar North pole looks at a target while at the same time another telescope on the south pole does it as well then what we have in effect is a single telescope with the resolving power of the diameter of the distance between the telescopes. This would allow us to observe not only planets going around extra terrestial solar systems but major geologic features of these planets.

Now do not let this title fool you..
Russia Will Develop Space Elevators

Russia seems to say a lot nowadays :?

SpaceNut · 2006-12-04 09:24:15

NASA Exploration Strategy and Lunar Architecture Briefing

NASA Deputy Administrator Shana Dale and senior executives from the Exploration Systems Mission Directorate will host a press conference at 1 p.m. CST Monday, Dec. 4, to announce the agency's global exploration strategy and lunar architecture.

SpaceNut · 2006-12-04 20:42:45

NASA Unveils Global Exploration Strategy and Lunar Architecture

Slated for construction of base aroun 2024 as posted in other threads but here is the catch...

NASA Deputy Administrator Shana Dale, who is guiding the long-term strategy development effort among 14 of the world's space agencies, said, "This strategy will enable interested nations to leverage their capabilities and financial and technical contributions, making optimum use of globally available knowledge and resources to help energize a coordinated effort that will propel us into this new age of discovery and exploration."
13 other space agencies, as well as non-governmental organizations and commercial interests. Experts from the Australian, Canadian, Chinese, European, French, German, British, Indian, Italian, Japanese, Russian, South Korean and Ukrainian space agencies participated.

The expectations are for contributions to the outpost site. can you say ISS but on the lunar surface. Is the proposal for international finacial assistance the way to go? We know how well that is going but what happens to the outpost once the US is ready to push on towards Mars. Will it be just another ISS like issue?

edit:
Another issue that may occur that effects the outcome of the base and its construction could come in the form as the shuttle has for the ISS in that more than one nation must be capable of lofting any piece of the outpost to the lunar surface so as to not allow for any delays to its build.

SpaceNut · 2006-12-05 07:30:26

From these links below I have summarized the Items I feel are part of what may cause road bumps along the way to the moon and on towards what will be Mars.

Digging deeper into NASA's moon plans

NASA's Delayed Moon Plans Worry KSC Workers, 4-Year Gap Between Last Shuttle Flight, First Moon Mission Expected

NASA plans permanent moon base by 2024

There are 14,000 space workers at the Kennedy Space Center, and many are wondering what will happen to them when nothing is flying for that length of time.
Workers will be needed to assemble the shuttle's replacement ship at the Kennedy Space Center, but that will take only 300 or 400 of the 14,000 space workers here. So, while workers worry about getting pink slips, NASA worries the employees will start leaving on their own, draining too much talent from the space program.

While NASA has yet to design the permanent camp, last July officials at the Johnson Space Center took reporters on a tour of possible lunar habitats to come.
The mock-ups were built of plywood and plastic, and had the crowded feel of a FEMA trailer. They addressed problems that NASA engineers expected astronauts living on the Moon to encounter.

The effort was presented as an unprecedented mission to learn about the moon and places beyond, as well as an integral part of a long-range plan to send astronauts to Mars. The moon settlement would ultimately be a way station for space travelers headed onward, and would provide not only a haven but also hydrogen and oxygen mined from the lunar surface to make water and rocket fuel.

Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville to help develop the lunar lander that will double as a moon construction truck.
Marshall will be responsible for the descent, or landing, stage of the lunar lander, which will be used to place crews, supplies, living and work modules on the moon's surface.

By 2025, NASA intends to have a manned outpost of significant size operating on the lunar surface, and will ideally be prepared to start the implementation of manned Mars missions.
The lunar poles were identified as the most ideal base site due to a relatively benign thermal environment, abundant solar power, and the possibility of water being available in shadowed craters.
Detailed plans for constructing this lunar base at Shackleton crater at the south pole are described, and ultimately will include an Observation Zone, Resource Zone, Habitation Zone, Power Production Zone, and Landing Zone. Initially, a power-providing LSAM lands in 2019 with an unpressurized rover and a solar power unit and is left on the surface.
This is joined in 2020 by two more LSAMs that connect to the first power LSAM, each of which carry additional solar power units and unpressurized rovers, in addition to a single surface mobility carrier 'truck' to move large payloads.
In 2021, two habitation modules (described as ISS-like) are brought to the surface, along with two power storage units and an additional solar power unit. A third habitation module is added in 2022, with another flight later in 2022 bringing another solar power unit and two more power storage units to the surface. In 2023, a fourth habitation module, a logistics unit, and an initial ISRU plant are added to the rapidly growing base.
With the addition of two more logistics units and an unpressurized rover early in 2024, six-month missions can start at the outpost later in the year. A pressurized rover is not slated for delivery to the base until 2027.

SpaceNut · 2006-12-05 20:36:03

Lunar Exploration Objectives

Almost 200 lunar exploration objectives resulted from the Global Exploration Strategy process. NASA took the many answers to this question and compiled them into a comprehensive database of almost 200 different things we could do on the moon! The lunar exploration objectives are meant to capture the entire set of activities that anyone involved in lunar exploration may want to pursue.

The themes and objectives are meant to capture the entire set of activities that anyone involved in lunar exploration (a space agency, private firm, university, or other) may want to pursue, as developed by the process described previously.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/163560main_Luna … ctives.pdf

http://www.nasa.gov/xls/163559main_Luna … ctives.xls

Just now finding the 1st Space Exploration Conference that was held January 30-February 1, 2005, Orlando, FL there is an archive of this on the page.

The 2nd Space Exploration Conference is on going as cIclops has been posting on.

There is still one more day remaining and at 10-11:30 a.m. - Plenary Panel - Constellation Elements (Orion, Ares, etc.), Moderated by: Mr. Jeff Hanley, Manager, NASA Constellation Program

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/explo … _conf.html

SpaceNut · 2006-12-06 07:35:16

The base could be a stepping stone for manned flights to Mars. And NASA bosses believe the £50billion scheme will help mankind colonise the solar system and harvest its natural assets.

"We will build up to the point where we are staying 180 days and then we will have a permanent presence." Getting there and establishing a base will require a versatile, general purpose lander craft that could set down anywhere and be the core of an outpost.

Return to the moon, Abundant justification for NASA's plan to prepare for long-range space travel.

NASA identified six reasons for returning astronauts to the moon:

Read on to see them ....

For NASA, a plan to colonize the moon, A permanent base to pursue science, prepare for Mars

Nasa also tackled the mundane: how to recycle human and manufactured waste, regenerate the outpost's air and water and establish lunar agriculture to provide food and oxygen for residents.
Members of a lunar colony will also need ground and "air" transportation, fuel depots, power generation and storage, telecommunications, and a lunar positioning and tracking system, planners said.

Our view on the return to the moon: NASA, the costly frontier, Plan for lunar base shows how far America is from inhabiting space.

Ask most Americans what vision for human space exploration excites them and the conversation is likely to touch on popular science and science fiction as much as anything NASA is up to. Perhaps future space travelers won't alter the laws of physics or travel on particle beams. But most people would like to see space inhabited by significant numbers of people, who are engaged in a variety of pursuits and don't see their presence there as remarkable.

Opposing view: 15 cents a day, That’s what the space program costs each person in the USA.

Today's investments in space exploration are, like the Louisiana Purchase, a down payment on our future. We are focusing NASA's investments on key technologies that will enable our nation to bring the solar system into our economic sphere and for scientific discovery. The geography of our solar system dictates that our first, halting steps will be to the moon three days journey away from Earth. A lunar outpost might follow soon afterward, allowing us to exploit the resources and vantage point of the moon.
In the coming century, we must make important but careful investments of time, energy and resources when it comes to the exploration of space. Make no mistake: America is still a frontier nation. And space is today's frontier.

SpaceNut · 2006-12-06 09:44:07

Global Exploration Strategy and Lunar Architecture Briefing (transcript) from Monday, December 4, 2006

Day 1 summary
Day 2 summary

SpaceNut · 2006-12-07 06:38:12

In the Implementing the Vision2ndSpace Exploration ConferenceImplementing the Vision2ndSpace Exploration Conference

Exploration Strategy and Architecture

pg 6
Global -refers to the inclusion of all stakeholders in the strategy development process -to ensure that as NASA moves forward in planning for future exploration missions -we understand the interests of:
International Space Agencies
Academia
Private Sector
Private Citizens
Lunar Objectives represent all stakeholders interests. Not all objectives are endorsed by NASA

How do Private Citizens become stakeholders?
Does this also mean a tourist to the moon by partner seat pricing?

In the Lunar Exploration Objectives document
In the Materials science page 13

Examine the Apollo, Lunakhod, and/or Surveyor spacecraft
to determine the longterm effects of the lunar environment on
materials.

This will be a tough thing to do without a long duration rover capability since the base is at the poles unless there are aditional LSAM landing prior to base construction starting.

On another note most of the objectives are or could be done as the base is being built. Why wait to get our feet wet before manning it?

On the note of complexity the more pieces intended to close the loop on living off the land the higher the base will cost and quite possibly the will be a chance for delay to man the outpost as well.

On the last item of international cooperation this can only work if Nasa can also have the other partners capable of lunar cargo ect.. to base as more than just a cost saver.

That said this is the wrong way to go about partners...
Russia Hopes to Join U.S. Lunar Exploration Project if U.S. Provides Cash

Russia will join the U.S. Moon exploration program if Washington provides necessary funding, the RIA-Novosti news agency quoted a Russian space research official as saying Tuesday.
Panarin said separate funds have not been earmarked for Moon exploration projects under Russia’s federal space program for 2006-2015.

GCNRevenger · 2006-12-07 13:49:54

Ummm... isn't the whole international effort thing supposed to bring money into the NASA program, and not out to Russia?

cjchandler · 2006-12-07 14:00:36

Only if you pay taxes in America

SpaceNut · 2007-01-23 09:09:32

A Moon Full of Opportunity

NASA gave six reasons for going back to the Moon when only one was needed. Almost 200 activities were described for the Moon, grouped under six major "themes" (as the agency calls them), including settlement, global cooperation, science and preparation for Mars.
Using what we find in space to enable exploration and to create new capability has never been attempted.

cIclops · 2007-01-27 11:24:39

Another powerful speech by Mike Griffin at the World Economic Forum in Davos this weekend.

... I believe that there are economic and technological reasons why we can now begin to afford and sustain this Vision for Space Exploration in a fashion where we “go-as-we-pay,” and why the nations of the world making such investments of time, resources and energy will find that the benefits far outweigh the costs and risks involved. We have the technology and economic wherewithal to incorporate the benefits of space into our sphere of influence – to exploit the vantage point of space and the space environment, and the natural resources of the moon, Mars, and near-Earth asteroids. Space exploration is not simply this century’s greatest adventure; it is an imperative that, if not pursued with some concerted effort, will have catastrophic consequences for our society. I realize this is a bold statement, so allow me to explain.

SpaceNut · 2007-11-16 08:49:54

As man tries to destroy his world with polution and destrution there are groups making efforts to ensure mans survival into the future.

Efforts to use the moon as a respository are not that far off.

Doomsday seed bank gears up for business; Cooldown process begins for vault dug into Arctic mountainside

07115_seedvault_hmed_5p.hmedium.jpg

While it is not the moon it could be the way we will use it in the future and for mars as well.

Norway first proposed building what it called a "Noah's Ark" for the world's seeds in June 2005, and started construction a year later, blasting a nearly 400-foot (120-meter) tunnel into a frozen mountain and placing the vault for foil-wrapped seeds deep inside. Each sample holds about 500 seeds.
Over the next two months, powerful cooling units will bring its temperature down to the target of about zero degrees Fahrenheit (-18 degrees Celsius) from the current 23 degrees F (-5 degrees C).
"The seed vault is the perfect place for keeping seeds safe for centuries," said Cary Fowler, executive director of the Rome-based Global Crop Diversity Trust, a project partner. "At these temperatures, seeds for important crops like wheat, barley and peas can last for up to 1,000 years."
According to the project, there are already about 1,400 seed banks, mostly run by countries for their own seeds, but these could be affected by economic problems, wars, political unrest or natural disasters. The project Web site says the national seed bank of the Philippines was wiped out last year by a typhoon, and banks in Iraq and Afghanistan have been destroyed by war.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-11-17 03:00:07

The upgraded Hubble will be the JWST. The moon is not a good place for optical or IR astronomy, it's dusty, its temperature changes a lot, it has gravity and rotates. Probably all new telescopes will be constructed in free space.

You could use the Moon for Microwave and Radio, dust won't matter much with those dishes
they aren't like sensitive telescopes and I've seen some of them take a heck of a beating and still stay in action. Radio astronomy from the Lunar far side would provide the most powerful array ever known. Plus we'd have access to those 1 cm and 30 m wavelengths which our atmosphere absorbs.

I think you guys know my opinion on this matter, I like the fact NASA is going back to the Moon but I still feel we should skip it and move on to Mars. Like the name says 'Mars before Moon'

cIclops · 2007-11-17 04:01:57

Yup, radio astronomy will probably work very well on the Moon, especially farside.

Returning to the Moon makes a lot of sense as preparation for going to Mars. We need to do both.

SpaceNut · 2015-12-23 21:44:18

bump

SpaceNut · 2017-03-15 17:03:41

Bump for GW and I think some more content is in the topc of "The need for a Moon direct" of which due to the old forum software would collapse after just 300 posts so we have 1 - *3* - ...continue here. burried in the Human mission folder....
Also those closed topic which I will need to fix for the shifting

The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2006-11-29 18:39:45

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

#2 2006-11-30 03:08:20

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

#3 2006-11-30 06:26:50

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

#4 2006-11-30 09:13:07

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

#5 2006-11-30 14:52:24

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#6 2006-11-30 18:56:58

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#7 2006-11-30 21:45:48

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#8 2006-12-01 08:05:53

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#9 2006-12-01 09:02:01

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#10 2006-12-04 09:24:15

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#11 2006-12-04 20:42:45

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

#12 2006-12-05 07:30:26

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#13 2006-12-05 20:36:03

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#14 2006-12-06 07:35:16

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#15 2006-12-06 09:44:07

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#16 2006-12-07 06:38:12

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#17 2006-12-07 13:49:54

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#18 2006-12-07 14:00:36

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#19 2007-01-23 09:09:32

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#20 2007-01-27 11:24:39

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#21 2007-11-16 08:49:54

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#22 2007-11-17 03:00:07

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#23 2007-11-17 04:01:57

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#24 2015-12-23 21:44:18

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#25 2017-03-15 17:03:41

Re: The Vision and why are we going back to the moon

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