What do you think of this?

clark · 2002-12-20 14:03:59

Soph, I don't think you stupid.

I think you are ignorant.

I think you would understand how your assumptions are incorrect if you actually looked into what yuo are talking about.

You are smart enough to be able to do that.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-20 14:12:48

This reminds me of something that once happened to someone I know. They were sitting on their porch, drinking alcohol, quite inebriated, and an officer strolls by (this is in New Orleans). He says, ?Come here sir.? (Lacking any provaction whatsoever from my friend, except that perhaps because he was black.) And my friend got off his chair, walked down his porch, out of his lawn and on to the sidewalk.

Now, it's not exactly illegal to drink or have open containers in public, however, it is illegal to be totally pie eyed drunk, and cause a rucass and so on. You know what the cop did? He arrested him! All my friend did was say loudly, and cheery (New Orleans is loud, if you've ever been here during Mardi Gras, you'd know what I'm saying), ?Evening officer!? when the officer initally walked by. The officer couldn't have arrested him on his property for merely being stone drunk, but he sure could on the public streets.

Was that fair? I honestly don't think so. He took advantage of my friend, because he was impared and had no reason to think he was doing anything wrong. Just like these immigrants had absolutely no reason to think they were doing anything wrong.

Funny how simply complying with law can get you screwed, eh?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-21 01:44:52

Soph's 100% right. Thousands of immigrants come here every year, and follow the laws about becoming a citizen. My great-grandfather was an immigrant Irishman, and somehow he made it into this country without any problems from the INS. My mother's ancestors came here from Germany with no guff.

The US and our Republican majority aren't evil head-hunters out to capture and scare the Arab citizens of this country. As much as you don't want to believe it, they are just trying to do the best job of running this country possible. And that includes keeping close tabs on immigration, by any ethnic group.

We don't treat Mexicans, Cubans, or Chinese aliens any differently. They are put into cells upon arrival and deported back to their origin country just the same as these illegal Arabs.

Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colorado) is my favorite congressman because of his work on keeping INS a highly effective part of our government.

And what about "jug-headed rednecks" Josh? Haven't you been talking in our Bush thread about how the "evil" conservatives use generalities to push their agenda? Hypocrisy is such a funny thing... I think deep down you feel some kind of hatred toward the average Joe American. I think you think you're somehow better than Joe American because you have a "better perspective" on things. That's what pisses me off about liberalism. You're not real Americans, just a bunch of bloated supposedly-intellectuals in your ivory towers that think you know better or something. Well, I'm sure glad that in a democracy, majority rules.

And that people living in a small state such as mine have some kind of way to keep our vote from being lost to the big states in Presidential elections.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-21 01:49:57

And what about "jug-headed rednecks" Josh?

Sorry, Josh. I couldn't see all the way back to when that post was made. AltToWar made the comment. Sorry everybody...???

soph · 2002-12-21 07:54:49

The only thing i disagree with you on, cal, is that based on the democratic system, bush shouldnt be in office. gore got more votes. because of an antiquated, elitist system, he squeezed in. the electoral college should be abolished.

AltToWar · 2002-12-21 10:52:53

Soph's 100% right. Thousands of immigrants come here every year, and follow the laws about becoming a citizen. My great-grandfather was an immigrant Irishman, and somehow he made it into this country without any problems from the INS. My mother's ancestors came here from Germany with no guff.
The US and our Republican majority aren't evil head-hunters out to capture and scare the Arab citizens of this country. As much as you don't want to believe it, they are just trying to do the best job of running this country possible. And that includes keeping close tabs on immigration, by any ethnic group.
We don't treat Mexicans, Cubans, or Chinese aliens any differently. They are put into cells upon arrival and deported back to their origin country just the same as these illegal Arabs.
Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colorado) is my favorite congressman because of his work on keeping INS a highly effective part of our government.

And what about "jug-headed rednecks" Josh? Haven't you been talking in our Bush thread about how the "evil" conservatives use generalities to push their agenda? Hypocrisy is such a funny thing... I think deep down you feel some kind of hatred toward the average Joe American. I think you think you're somehow better than Joe American because you have a "better perspective" on things. That's what pisses me off about liberalism. You're not real Americans, just a bunch of bloated supposedly-intellectuals in your ivory towers that think you know better or something. Well, I'm sure glad that in a democracy, majority rules.
And that people living in a small state such as mine have some kind of way to keep our vote from being lost to the big states in Presidential elections.

It is very convenient to have others think for you, isn't it?

It means you dont have to look at the facts.

Many of the Arabs detained had followed thwe letter of the law in applying for a green card. The INS had not proccessed their application before their visa's ran out. Many of these people had permission to remain from the INS dispite their over due visa.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-21 11:02:17

Soph, the electoral college is in place to ensure that politicians care about the votes of small states. Wyoming, for instance, has 3 electoral votes for a population of about 475,000. Under a popular vote system, a good sized TOWN in California, Texas, or Florida would have more popular votes than that. Without the electoral college, there would be no reason for presidential candidates to campaign in smaller states, and they would focus on population centers. We would be effectively augmenting the less populated regions of the country from the denser sections.

And my question still stands, Alt. Why do thousands of immigrants of all races and origins, come to this country legally every year, and don't get into ANY trouble with the INS? Why can everyone else make sure their visas are renewed on time, yet somehow when it comes to Arab-almost-Americans, the government creates an evil conspiracy to have the beurocracy hold up their applications.

Tom Tancredo is still my favorite congressman...

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-21 11:29:20

Why can everyone else make sure their visas are renewed on time[?]

?Everyone else? does? Care to substantiate that rather misguided claim?

soph · 2002-12-21 11:37:18

no, cal. the electoral college was put in place because the early american aristocracy felt that people werent well enough informed to vote. usually, they went along with the peoples votes, but they had the power to vote however they wanted. its basically saying that the people have no power.

and presidents tend to campaign in blocks. if they only campaigned in major population centers, theyd lose. the underlying motives in even New York are so complex that the candidate would have to campaign for months just to win the entire vote. it wouldnt be effective. so they campaign for women in general, blacks, etc. But they move around the country doing it, so locals feel they get attention paid to them.

the electoral college does not facilitate democracy. it is pointless, and goes against popular sovereignty.

AltToWar · 2002-12-21 11:47:39

And my question still stands, Alt. Why do thousands of immigrants of all races and origins, come to this country legally every year, and don't get into ANY trouble with the INS? Why can everyone else make sure their visas are renewed on time, yet somehow when it comes to Arab-almost-Americans, the government creates an evil conspiracy to have the beurocracy hold up their applications.

Simple answer is: Because they are not on the State Department's Black List.

Many spanish-americans, europian-americans, etc. are currently in America, with their visas expired, with permission from the INS to remain because thay are married or have jobs, while their application for their Green Card is in process.

Think this through..

You come in on a visa, you go to school, you get a job, you apply for naturalization. 2 years later you application is still in review. Your visa comeas up. You can:
a: Go back home. (and re-start the whole naturalization process over, and possibly face retribution from your violent dictatorship back home.)
b: Wait for the system to catch up.

b is what is done most often, and is common practice here in the US.

If this law were applied to all foreign nations, there would not be enough jails in all the US to hold all the people who would have to be detained.

But dont take it from me, just go back and suck on the tit of your white suppremest GOP They would never lie to you. We dont need no dirty immigrants anyhow. Especially A-rabs. They are all terrorists, and diserve to be jailed.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-21 23:05:53

AltToWar, I'm not going to let you drag me through the mud like you have before. I don't call your party names, and I don't know why you have all this unbridled hate for someone you've never even met, let alone a teenager that was trying to have a civilized debate with people he thought were at a higher level. Thank you for crushing my hopes you bastard.

I'm still waiting for some hardcore liberal to respond to why liberalism pisses me off. And you still have these paranoid fantasies about the government having a black list, like this is Stalinist Russia. Get a life. Do you honestly think that the government and our leaders are in office dreaming about persecuting non-americans? It's alright to question the status quo, but damn dude, you really ARE scared of the black helicopters coming to get you (don't worry, son, they don't exist. Only those jug-headed rednecks that throw bricks through Arab's windows believe in them!)

I used to have no faith my generation's ability to lead when the time comes, but that fear has been erased by your commments, alt. What a miserable existence it must be to live in constant fear of your elected leaders...

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-22 00:34:32

And you still have these paranoid fantasies about the government having a black list[.]

Um, what else do you call a list which has names of only people from a specific [middle eastern] origin, of people to be called in and arrested for interrogation? You know what I find funny? soph here is saying that ?it's common sense? to go after Arabs because that's the nationality of terrorists. And you seem to agree. I guess you didn't realize that you are talking about blacklists.

Are you going to avoid my request that you substantiate your silly claim that people from middle eastern dissent are the only ones, of all the people in the country, who can't get their visas ?renewed on time?? (One must note that they weren't actually late renewing their visas. You get a grace period due to the system, as AltToWar points out, being lagged.)

Why is everyone neglecting to point out that most of the people were released? Mainly due to the fact that they weren't doing anything illegal in the first place...

...could it be perhaps that the police had no legitimate reason to arrest these people in the first place?

AltToWar · 2002-12-22 01:42:29

I don't call your party names.

Nope. You know why? I dont have a party. I think for myself.

On drugs I'm libertarian. on Education, I'm Conservative. On gun control I'm Liberal. On Foreign Policy I'm Isolationists. On the environment I'm Green. When it comes to civil rights and humanitarian issues I'm more left than my Democratic representative.

I do not conform my ideas to fit a particular party.

I choose and prioritize my personal values, listen to the facts, read between the lines, and make the best decision I can as to where I stand.

Now if you were to look at the Republican party, you would see that the current administration is not working for, but contrary, to the traditional values of the Republican Party.

Now I could go on a tirate about how the Democat party is just as morally bankrupt and showing their own true colors.

Think for yourself.

Define your values.

Look critically at the media. If the media source you currently read is biased towards your point of view, seek out opposing media sources. Honestly and earnestly examine what they have to say, and see if you can find merit in the other sides opinion.

Try to look between the lines.

Be honest with yourself and carefully judge what each side has to say.

After you are done, then ask youself how the information gathered applies to your personal values.

And you still have these paranoid fantasies about the government having a black list, like this is Stalinist Russia. Get a life. Do you honestly think that the government and our leaders are in office dreaming about persecuting non-americans? It's alright to question the status quo, but damn dude, you really ARE scared of the black helicopters coming to get you (don't worry, son, they don't exist. Only those jug-headed rednecks that throw bricks through Arab's windows believe in them!

You, like I, have been raised in a rather comfortable and safe time in worlds history. It is quite easy for us to take for granted our civil liberties. For us, it is only through the study of History that we can truely understand how fragile our liberties are. How quickly they can me demolished. How eager those in power are to remove them.

Those that do understand how fragile freedom is are the ones that stand up at the first sight of encrochment and claim foul. Those that do not understand don't seem to see what all the ruckus is about. Some choose to seek additional comfort and security in exchange for just a little liberty at a time.

Lets say you wanted to cook a frog.

If you get a pot of boiling water, and thow him in. Whoops, the frog will jump right out.

If you instead put a cool pot of water on the stove, and place the frog in, he will stay. If you turn on the heat just a little, the frog won't notice the gradual tempature rise. As it gets warmer, the frog might actually find the increase of heat comforting. the frog might even smile.

As the heat goes up, the frog might decide to take a nap, all warm and cozy, with a smile on his face.

Before you know it, the frog is cooked, with not a bit of protest from him.

Every step away from our core beliefs puts us one step closer to becoming one of those nations, like Stalins USSR, that we fear and pity.

If you investigated the current administration you will see that we have in the past 2 years done much, Very much in fact, to erode our liberties.

It's not that people in the current administration are evilly plotting the demise of western civilization. It's just the nature of power. Power wishes for more power. Power tries to centralize. Power is it's own means and ends.

soph · 2002-12-22 07:38:19

caltech, the fbi has a file on you. in fact, anybody who ever said bush sneezed the wrong way has a file on them. protest is apparently our right, yet, the government watches us, marks it down, and is prepared to use that against us.

the fbi has no right to do this. in some ways, the government is becoming more like big brother. now, it is one of the most free countries in the world, but the government has to be reformed, or our bureaurcratic waste will catch up to us.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-22 15:32:17

In this new day and age of terrorism, we have to relinquish some of our rights to ensure our protection. Do I care if the FBI, or the CIA, or INS or Department of Homeland Security have a file on me? No. Why? Because I know that I'm not plotting or conspiring with terrorists, and I have nothing to fear.

Think for yourself.
Define your values.

I do think for myself. But the conservative point of view matches my personal beliefs in 99.9% of the time. Really the only thing I disagree with my party on is farm subsidies, where I take a slightly-left viewpoint.

Are you going to avoid my request that you substantiate your silly claim that people from middle eastern dissent are the only ones, of all the people in the country, who can't get their visas ?renewed on time??

Did I say Arabs are the only ones who can't renew their visas? Nope. Most Arabs can fill out a form and have it processed ahead of time, like a lot of other immigrants. I've been saying all along that we don't treat Arabs any differently, and when we get illegal Mexicans, Cubans, Chinesee etc., we do the same thing and deport them.

You guys are still really paranoid of this country becoming a KGB-Twilight-Zone nightmare. Yes, our freedoms may change a bit to protect us, but it won't come near a Stalinist Russia. People will still be able to speak out against the government, and hold peace rallies in public, and believe in their own religion without interference from the government. BUT WHAT THE HELL BIT OF GOOD DOES OUR CONSTITUTION DO IF WE CAN'T DEFEND IT?!

It's not that people in the current administration are evilly plotting the demise of western civilization. It's just the nature of power. Power wishes for more power. Power tries to centralize. Power is it's own means and ends.

That's why the authors of our constitution left so many back-doors and checks and balances... to keep this from happening.

AltToWar · 2002-12-22 20:09:40

In this new day and age of terrorism, we have to relinquish some of our rights to ensure our protection. .

Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security.
-Ben Franklin

People have died to protect our freedoms.
Your willing to just hand them over, so you feel more safe?

Every time we lose a civil liberty, we have handed the terrorists a victory.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!."
-- Patrick Henry, Speech of March 23, 1775

"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion ... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. ... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Smith, November 13, 1787;

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 00:08:26

Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson were living under an oppresive British crown when they said those things. And colonial states weren't being bombed by foreign terrorists. Nor were any other nations at that time.

And my question still stands:

What good are the rights in our constitution if we can't defend them?

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:42:31

And my question still stands:
What good are the rights in our constitution if we can't defend them?

What good is a constitution if we shred it when times get tough? How can we claim to have convictions when we toss our core beliefs out the window?

Times like this are EXACTLY why we have a constitution.

If you examine the past, you will see that inflated foreign threats have always been an excuse for tyranny to set in.

"A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle and patriotism is loyalty to that principle. "
-George William Curtis

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 12:34:14

Since when have tyrants moved into this country and taken away our constitutional rights? All we want to do is deport those Iranians back to Iran because they didn't have their visas renewed on time. Other immigrants can get their visas renewed on time, including other Arabs, so why should we just let them stay here because "their intentions were good...we think".

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 13:18:38

Since when have tyrants moved into this country and taken away our constitutional rights? All we want to do is deport those Iranians back to Iran because they didn't have their visas renewed on time. Other immigrants can get their visas renewed on time, including other Arabs, so why should we just let them stay here because "their intentions were good...we think".

obviously you have not been paying attention.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 13:22:15

Yes, I have been paying attention. And I'm telling you that I can still speak out against our government, hold a peaceful meeting with other citizens, practice my own form of religion, get a fair and speedy trial, not have my house searched at night, and keep and bear arms.

And my parents sure as hell voted in November's elections, so I don't see where you're getting tyranny from.

soph · 2002-12-23 13:32:03

the guy who won the popular vote lost the election. if thats fair, then we've got problems.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 13:34:14

Let's not argue about the electoral college anymore. I'm sure that people in population centers (such as yourself, soph) favor the popular vote, and people in rural areas (like me) favor the electoral college.

soph · 2002-12-23 13:43:13

the electoral college allowed a man who shouldnt be in office to sleaze his way in. gore lost his own state. why? because he was against tobacco and guns. being anti-tobacco lost him a few electoral college votes, yet he still won the popular vote. why does he lose the election because a bunch of people like to smoke?

you want to talk about screwing up the country for a minority, look at this election. the electoral college represents the minority, not the majority. what it does is say, alright, in this county, he won, the margin doesnt matter. its simply not fair.

why dont you want to argue about it? because its indefensible?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 13:47:42

I don't want to argue about it because its constitutional law in black and white, and if Gore had only won the electoral college vote, you'd be singing a different tune.

I've told you already that without the electoral college, voters in Wyoming, and Montana, and Alaska, and New Mexico would be augmented from having any political voice in our affairs. The electoral college was set up so that states like Virginia and New York, who held a majority of the citizens at that time, didn't control the vote, and gave voters in Georgia and Rhode Island a chance to speak up.

I know the popular vote system make sense in New York, but out here in Colorado, we'd be forgotten.

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